Swim myth #2....busted.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

rtodd — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 10:26:52 GMT

That was one sick swim. I got lactic acid watching.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 10:03:35 GMT

I also tend to tilt my head (tuck my chin) a bit when I swim. Nice clip YouTube- Chris Stevenson 200 Back SCM Masters WR as a confirmation! :D

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Elaine Krugman — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 07:10:17 GMT

Nice clip YouTube- Chris Stevenson 200 Back SCM Masters WR as a confirmation! :D AWESOME! Congratulations, Chris, for all you have achieved! And, thanks for the clip! :applaud:

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 15:20:50 GMT

Fortunately, where I swim I almost always have my own lane. It's a legit pool and I did discover tonight that this pool does in fact have the black line. I can't believe I never even noticed. I guess the change of pace of the quicker turnarounds never caused an issue. I have never even wanted to consider swimming the 1650 in a 25 yard pool, but the black line has driven me to madness both times now that I have done the 1500 LCM. Besides consiously trying to keep my head down, are there any drills or aperatus I can use to force me to keep my head down? The snorkel by Finis is good, but so is the head down sculling drill. You can see that one on our DVD, Fundamentals of Fast Swimming, available on our website, www.theraceclub.com. Gary

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

ourswimmer — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 05:44:22 GMT

Besides consiously trying to keep my head down, are there any drills or aperatus I can use to force me to keep my head down? Snorkel. I use this one; my teammate uses this one. Without the snorkel, you should see under the water, not over it, when you breathe. When I first got that tip I thought it was crazy but it's not.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 16:53:08 GMT

This helps too! ;) :p (I hope I don't offend anyone with this, I mean it as a friendly tease!)

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 16:43:19 GMT

Nice figures, thanks for posting. You would know better than I with your background, but I don't know if cross-sectional area tells the entire story. The change in flow path with the head sticking out more (first figure) seems more abrupt than in the second figure, so I would tend to think the first is not as streamlined as the second. In the 2nd figure, less water is hitting the top of the head because the hands/arms "part" the water so that it flows around the head. I've been thinkiNG about this a bit, and came up with my own little personal theory... Not sure if this is correct, but on the surface it seems to make sense.... I've been watching some of our national team swimmers, and other top level people video, and watching my 22 yr old stepdaughter swim, who is a NCAA all american (I forget what division and where and how many times, hubby keep track, enough to get her a nice college scholaship, and swims faster then most of us can ever hope to, so decently accomplished)... and I talked it over with my hubby, who is a level 5 masters coach (blah blah blah) She too is a little very flexible gumby who can hang her elbows way behind her ears, and I think the following may be happening: Some people may have sifficiently flexible phisique that tilting the head down some allows them to squeeze their shoulders and upper arms even closer together, and whatever they lose by sticking their head down lower, they may gain that, and even more by making their overall frontal cross section smaller. Especially people who can really hyperextend their shoulders and other joints, and otherwise have wide shoulders. See attached pic. I think this is what may be happening, but I'm not sure, I'm going to have to impose a series of 'torture' tests on our swimmers to see how it works in action :P Good thing stepdaughter just graduated college is and is home for the summer, I need to grab a tapemeasure, and have her do a few streamline positions, she how much she can suck in her shoulder circumference. The bottom line is, that whatever little thing one can do to increase the efficinecy "In their personal case and physique" is what works the best. I think best coaches tend to help swimmers figure out how to take best advantage out of what they do have (and develop it further), rather then pishing one size fits all solution.... once we get past the basics.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 16:15:10 GMT

So if I lose 20 lbs , that is as good as a tech suit ? In my personal case, it works better :)

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:54:30 GMT

I do not think so. I think that if you want to race freestyle as fast as you can, you need to let go of being able to see where you are going, and rely on the black line and T and maybe also on stroke-counting. If you need to look around in practice because of the conditions, that's a shame, because getting your head down will speed you up; and I know from bitter experience that it takes a lot of practice to break the looking-ahead habit. Do any competition pools lack the black line? Fortunately, where I swim I almost always have my own lane. It's a legit pool and I did discover tonight that this pool does in fact have the black line. I can't believe I never even noticed. I guess the change of pace of the quicker turnarounds never caused an issue. I have never even wanted to consider swimming the 1650 in a 25 yard pool, but the black line has driven me to madness both times now that I have done the 1500 LCM. Besides consiously trying to keep my head down, are there any drills or aperatus I can use to force me to keep my head down?

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

rtodd — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 06:37:33 GMT

Second is the underwater arm position. Keep your elbows high (also called early vertical forearm) as this position of the arm as you pull through the water reduces the frontal drag significantly over pulling with the arm deep with a dropped elbow. Holding this high elbow position, particularly during a breath or with good body rotation, is challenging and requires good extension (negative angle) of the shoulder. This is so true. When I am fresh I can execute this EVF quite well. The problem I have is holding it in longer swims of 500yds or longer. When I get fatigued, it is real hard to hold this EVF stroke together. It is remarkably faster than a dropped elbow. A dropped elbow is truly the kiss of death for a distance swimmer.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 13:33:02 GMT

Awesome! Yes, we have quite a bit of that here at Nadadores too, just not in a form available for public just yet :) This is you guys, right? http://www.theraceclub.net/ We're having Dr. Genadijus from http://www.swimetrics.com/ come to Nadadores during out october SCM meet, to work with swimmers. Sounds like you and Team Termin are doing similar kind of a thing. Very cool! Too bad you guys aren't closer here to the west coast. When you came to our LCM Nationals in 2005, people loved it. Dr. G is great. So are Budd Termin in Buffalo and Jan Prins in Hawaii. All have access to the technology to measure velocity at all points in the stroke...essential to understanding the details of stroke mechanics. I am friends with all of them but have no formal relation with any of them. Gary

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

knelson — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 12:10:25 GMT

A former coach of mine (Tommy Hannan) advocated a slight chin tuck in backstroke. His theory is that in backstroke you don't want to be dead flat, but instead want a curvature to the upper back sort of like the bow of a boat. This does make sense to me, but I have a feeling this only works if you also have a good kick to keep your hips up. Tommy himself is a great kicker.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 11:48:48 GMT

Matt and Gary: thanks. I wonder if you have noticed the backstroker Egerszegi's style. This picture shows her head is tilted with chin down. Some of her video clips also show clearly her head was not flat like other swimmers. It looked like she's surfing on the water quite easily (like a boat)? :rolleyes: I couldn't get the pic link to work, but it isn't hard to find videos of her on YouTube. I also tend to tilt my head (tuck my chin) a bit when I swim. I don't think it HELPS one to float, but the neck is not a rigid rod, either: tucking the chin slightly does not automatically cause a drop in hips. It still isn't something I would teach, but if the person's hips are clearly up (as Egerszegi's were) and the tuck isn't too pronounced then I wouldn't worry too much about it. here's a 'tunnel' with the three different streamlines here. The difference between fiorst and second is not that great. Which makes specific swimmer have bigger or smaller drag cross section can depend on more then just the head position, but the rest of the body position and structure. Nice figures, thanks for posting. You would know better than I with your background, but I don't know if cross-sectional area tells the entire story. The change in flow path with the head sticking out more (first figure) seems more abrupt than in the second figure, so I would tend to think the first is not as streamlined as the second. In the 2nd figure, less water is hitting the top of the head because the hands/arms "part" the water so that it flows around the head. This matches my experience with fins: one time in a 50m pool I did a series of high-speed no-breath "shooters" with fins (typically about 23 sec or so) while adjusting my head position slightly. With my head more forward and arms tighter, I could really feel the water hitting the top of my head. Not so when my head was tucked between my arms. Later on when (without fins) I would take time measurements, I was a little faster with my head between my arms. Still figures also don't tell the whole story, of course, but the upper part of the body (chest-up) should be pretty rigid and stationary. Movement should be begin below the chest, lead by the hips. When the head sticks out it acts like a brake. To use the colorful analogies that Gary likes, it is like the difference between kicking with a kickboard held vertically, against the oncoming water, and the kickboard aligned with the body. It's a no-brainer... :)

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

orca1946 — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 07:23:15 GMT

So if I lose 20 lbs , that is as good as a tech suit ?

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 05:24:16 GMT

As for sighting, both of the guys in the picture can see... I think by now everyone can make a guess who is going to slow down more. (bottom guy). To sight your target, a swimmer doesn't meed nose or mouth out of the water, just eyes. Still breathe on your side. It's a skill that needs some work to fine tune. Of course, sometimes water can just be too choppy, and you need to lift more. Two things to learn are: How to lift your head, and keep the body, neck and upper body from lifting up too, and breaking the posture. this can be a bit like learning to juggle ;) The other is, try to listen/feel the waves, get in the rhythm of sighting when you're on the crest, not in the valley. Lot of top open water swimmers have sighting worked into their stroke so well, you can barely tell they are doing it. Also, depending on the course, you don't always have to see straight forward to know where you're going, there could be other landmarks, especially if you are swimming along the coast.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 05:06:10 GMT

here's a 'tunnel' with the three different streamlines here. The difference between fiorst and second is not that great. Which makes specific swimmer have bigger or smaller drag cross section can depend on more then just the head position, but the rest of the body position and structure. Key is to tuck the head in wherever one can, to minimize the drag. Third/bottom streamline, the difference is quite obvious. I've seen plenty of swimmers thatwill swear up and down "i'm streamlining, I'm streamlining" but when you watch the video, they look a lot more like #3 then #1 or #2.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Redbird Alum — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 02:46:22 GMT

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:24:58 GMT

Sometimes it's hard to take suggestion from text. Your text makes it sound like the head should be laying completely flat and looking straight down. Do you happen to have any links to video illustrating the proper head position as determined by your research? I was always taught head position on crawl was somewhere inbetween laying flat and the water line just above the goggle. Put to practice, the water line is typically at around my hair line while i swim and I'm looking diagonally downward at about 45* in front of me. Is this correct or incorrect? I'd love to think there's just a few things I could fix like head position and gain something significant, but the skeptical part of me thinks it may only be worth a little. Lets say everything else about my stroke is perfect... just how significant could a change to the proper head position be in relation to speed given my current head position? A percent? A few more? Definately interesting topics. Keep em coming! :)

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:22:40 GMT

I would add that keeping the head inline with the body is just as important (maybe more important) during the streamline. The tendency when on your front is to lift the head up, just like in swimming. You are 100% correct about that. It is also interesting to see that in general the farther one can push off the wall before surfacing the faster that person swims. I don't mean dolphin kick off the wall, I mean push and hold.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:44:33 GMT

In backstroke, the head also needs to be flat, looking straight up. Again, a smaller body tube is desirable, and if the head is lifted even a tiny bit, the hips are going to tend downward creating drag across your back. I tell my swimmers that your face is supposed to get wet in backstroke! Matt and Gary: thanks. I wonder if you have noticed the backstroker Egerszegi's style. This picture shows her head is tilted with chin down. Some of her video clips also show clearly her head was not flat like other swimmers. It looked like she's surfing on the water quite easily (like a boat)? :rolleyes:

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:35:24 GMT

I'm fairly certain I am tilting my head up and looking forward. Not sure if this came from years of dodging people at the Y, but it seems natural to me now. The problem is, I find looking down to be very frustrating to the point I might almost accept the slight reduction in speed to be able to see where I am going. Or am I off track here? How far ahead are you guys looking? Is there an angle that you can still be looking ahead and yet be in perfect alignment? As an aside, do most competition pools have the black line? I swam the 1500 last weekend and the black line was driving me absolutely insane. I was swimming right next to the lane line breathing into it, closing my eyes, doing anything to avoid looking at it for more than a few seconds at a time. I never thought about it, but the pool(s) I workout in must not have them. The pools in the meets I have done I never noticed whether they had them but my events were always 200 or less. :confused:

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 13:33:45 GMT

In oversimplified terms (I usually work with beginners) I tell them, keep your head (for pool swimming, not including the open water sighting) and kick within the tunnel that your shoulders make as you rotate through the water. There's a lot of leeway there though, one could still lift the head and be within the "tunnel". Would this kind of lifted head position, but still in the tunnel lead to increased drag as Gary desribes? I guess that's the real question I have. Typically my head position falls within this tunnel, but it's not flat as he describes.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 12:53:20 GMT

These pictures pretty well sum it up, Connie. If you want to see how it is done on video (and by world class swimmers) you can see the proper head position on both of our DVDs The Three Styles of Freestyle and Fundamentals of Fast Swimming....available on the Race Club website. Gary Awesome! Yes, we have quite a bit of that here at Nadadores too, just not in a form available for public just yet :) This is you guys, right? http://www.theraceclub.net/ We're having Dr. Genadijus from http://www.swimetrics.com/ come to Nadadores during out october SCM meet, to work with swimmers. Sounds like you and Team Termin are doing similar kind of a thing. Very cool! Too bad you guys aren't closer here to the west coast. When you came to our LCM Nationals in 2005, people loved it.

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 12:16:15 GMT

Great discussion! I'd like to add that minimizing lateral movement will reduce drag. As discussed, lifting the head up increases drag. Similarly excessive hip sway increases the surface area and induces drag forces. The key teaching point is to swim within the smallest possible tube and avoid excessive lateral or vertical motion while maximizing propulsive motions. I agree, Phillip! A strong core helps keep the spine straight and reduces drag. Gary

RE: Swim myth #2....busted.

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 12:13:42 GMT

I would add that keeping the head inline with the body is just as important (maybe more important) during the streamline. The tendency when on your front is to lift the head up, just like in swimming. One reason is that it is hard to know when to break out otherwise; it takes practice. But I see many people also have their arms way behind their heads, so that during the streamline your head is just sticking out there acting as a brake. (I wonder if this is a legacy of teaching streamlining to small kids -- with their comparatively big heads and short arms.) Your head should be between your arms, your shoulders should be at, or very slightly behind, your ears in the streamline. Try using big fins while doing long streamlines and adjust your head position. If you are kicking fast enough, you can really feel the effects of slight changes in head position. I agree with you on the first point; far too many swimmers (like nearly all) lift their heads just before the breakout and going into turns, both of which cause a huge increase in drag and slows them down. I respectfully disagree on the second point. On both the dive and turn, the most streamlined position one can attain is with the two elbows nearly touching and the shoulders and hyperextended in the direction of motion (I call this hyperstreamline). This can only occur behind the head and requires the chin nearly on the chest. This does not make the head stick out, as you suggest, and can be proven on countless underwater videos. Michael Phelps looks like a unicorn coming off the walls, with arms behind his head and elbows almost touching. Two arms turn into one. The hyperextension of the shoulder joint tightens the entire body and sucks in the abdomen, again reducing drag. Sadly, it is difficult if not impossible for many of us masters swimmers, including me, to achieve this position...but we can try...and that helps. Gary