swimtypes.com

RE: swimtypes.com

philoswimmer — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:38:12 GMT

Fairly typical and it's fine. It's just not the way I work, hence my apparent reserve in stating it's right or wrong. But I am alone in my camp, at least on this discussion forum. I definitely see the point you're making. Not every little swimming "flaw" is worth fixing, and if you're going to take the trouble to try to fix something, then you ought to make sure that it actually improves something (faster, less pain, etc).

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:38:17 GMT

Again, I am just trying to figure this out for myself, because I've been working hard to get my own hands straight, but if I don't need to do that, I won't! So you've been working hard. Did you notice any improvement of any sort (distance per stroke, improved speed, less pain etc)? Well, I can't interfere with this process you're currently committed to. Would be highly counter productive. In this particular case, sculling efficiency (sculling drills) should govern what you do with your hands/arms during the catch phase. Impact in changing this or that should mainly translate into a change in distance per stroke. Unless you represent an extreme case of hand/arm misalignment, I see it as something fairly minor.

RE: swimtypes.com

philoswimmer — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:11:55 GMT

He's taking a catch well outside the mid line with his left arm, and it's probably fine. As long as he swims straight (and for that, you can trust a triathlete that holds 1:10 per 100 over 3.8k open water as an introduction to a 8:30 hours long race). That's one thing with swingers. Gotta be little more open minded and let the guys swim. As long as they don't get injured, and swim straight. For what it's worth, I think that it's easier to achieve EVF when you go little wider, and when you let a little bit of body roll to occur prior taking the high elbow catch. Since he is a right side breather, we could assume that he has little less body roll on left side. Maybe he, like a lot of top10 in the world, has suffered injuries. This freedom he is taking with this left arm may in fact be a very good compromise between achieving enough EVF and not end up pinching his left shoulder articulations. Pure speculation of course. Here. A link to a nice youtube clip. Originally posted by Coach T (I believe), it's one of the best resources I've seen on the topic, it explains this principle very well. www.youtube.com/watch I see what you're saying. But I didn't mean the position of his arm or elbow -- I literally meant the position of his hand. In other words, look at the position of his hand in relation to the rest of the arm -- it seems a bit splayed outward to me. In the second video you posted, the hands aren't in that position -- they are straight (in line with the body the swimmer, not with the tips of the fingers pointed away from the body). Again, I am just trying to figure this out for myself, because I've been working hard to get my own hands straight, but if I don't need to do that, I won't!

RE: swimtypes.com

knelson — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:18:00 GMT

Guess I'm the party pooper. The whole site seemed a bit silly and simplistic to me. Isn't that sort of the point, though? The simplistic part, not the silly part. :) Obviously a web site can't diagnose stroke problems for every swimmer so they've attempted to lump swimmers into several categories. Once you've determine what type of a swimmer you are the site at least helps you focus on what stroke faults you may have and ways to correct those faults.

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:55:18 GMT

Good questions. The truth is, I don't know the answers. I was told I should fix my hand alignment, and so I've been trying to. :doh: Fairly typical and it's fine. It's just not the way I work, hence my apparent reserve in stating it's right or wrong. But I am alone in my camp, at least on this discussion forum. The usual little questionnaire I ask myself while working with athletes like the one shown on the clip (again, 1:10 per 100m open water therefore no turns over 3.8k) looks as follow: 1. The technical element that I see (hand pitched slightly off), does it create any adverse effect? 2. If so how can it be seen, or only felt? 3. Would the swimmer be faster if he was correcting this? 4. Once I issue the feedback, how can we monitor the improvement? 5. Do we have more important cats to beat? I track all that in a technical log book, where I write any feed back given to anyone. Coaching them becomes a matter of reopening the book and see how things progress. Otherwise, I end up giving feedback on top of unresolved feedback. Then everything gets confused and it becomes more difficult to see if we progress or not. Just my way of working... my :2cents: But you raised a valid point. You have a strong sense of observation. For you it may be important to just stick to theory books and do what your coach is instructing you to do. One thing is that the hand is the brain of the arm. If your coach is expecting you for instance to flex the wrist, pointing fingers down upon hand entry, he may then see this outward sweep as something conflicting with this principle. I just couldn't clearly see this in the clip.

RE: swimtypes.com

philoswimmer — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:42:21 GMT

So you've been working hard. Did you notice any improvement of any sort (distance per stroke, improved speed, less pain etc)? Well, I can't interfere with this process you're currently committed to. Would be highly counter productive. In this particular case, sculling efficiency (sculling drills) should govern what you do with your hands/arms during the catch phase. Impact in changing this or that should mainly translate into a change in distance per stroke. Unless you represent an extreme case of hand/arm misalignment, I see it as something fairly minor. Good questions. The truth is, I don't know the answers. I was told I should fix my hand alignment, and so I've been trying to. :doh:

RE: swimtypes.com

knelson — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:36:41 GMT

In other words, look at the position of his hand in relation to the rest of the arm -- it seems a bit splayed outward to me. I agree. This is something he should work on. The hand should ideally be in line with the forearm, not canted to the side.

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:13:15 GMT

That's interesting. I have an Ape index of about -1. But I think I have a relatively short stroke. Something else to think about. I loves Scott's kick. That's amazing. Scott defies a lot of commonly accepted implicit principles. Very high rate (>80rpm) with a strong kick as a first leg of an Ironman Triathlon. He ignored these good old cliches and managed to design a stroke technique that best fits his body type and personality. Being a swinger isn't a bad thing at all. This year I started coaching a natural swinger that doesn't swing. Short guy with little sensations for the water that unfortunately spent several years trying to tune himself as a glider. The result was awful. He's a swinger therefore his best bet is to learn how to swing *correctly/efficiently*, not trying to become someone he can't possibly be. That's the message behind Swim Smooth's Swim Type theory. Not everyone can or even should try to swim like Grant Hackett or A.Popov. Studies on the optimal "Stroke Rate/Distance per Stroke" given body types has been a big thing throughout the development, which spanned over several years. Worth noting that this Ape Index thing seems to have been first developed by and for climbers. Swimming isn't that different from climbing, especially the Free Style.

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:21:02 GMT

Is it just me, or is his underwater hand position a bit off? I'm not trying to be critical -- I genuinely would like to know what people think, because recently someone has corrected my hand position to be straighter than what I see in this video. He's taking a catch well outside the mid line with his left arm, and it's probably fine. As long as he swims straight (and for that, you can trust a triathlete that holds 1:10 per 100 over 3.8k open water as an introduction to a 8:30 hours long race). That's one thing with swingers. Gotta be little more open minded and let the guys swim. As long as they don't get injured, and swim straight. For what it's worth, I think that it's easier to achieve EVF when you go little wider, and when you let a little bit of body roll to occur prior taking the high elbow catch. Since he is a right side breather, we could assume that he has little less body roll on left side. Maybe he, like a lot of top10 in the world, has suffered injuries. This freedom he is taking with this left arm may in fact be a very good compromise between achieving enough EVF and not end up pinching his left shoulder articulations. Pure speculation of course. Here. A link to a nice youtube clip. Originally posted by Coach T (I believe), it's one of the best resources I've seen on the topic, it explains this principle very well. www.youtube.com/watch

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:10:52 GMT

Well, thank you. I've worked on it over the years. I used to hit my teammates in the other lanes because I swung so wide. I've gotten better at least. Your stroke looks good. Here's a swinger here.... www.youtube.com/watch Note, his first length was just very slow warm up stuff. His long distance race pace (3.8k specialist) starts by length #2. As you can see, swingers can swim real well and smooth, they just do it using a stroke rate that's typically fairly high. At least, so is my understanding. Here's some (a limited sample here) of the theories behind this new swim types approach. Short article in English that discusses your Ape Index www.feelforthewater.com/.../whats-your-ape-index.html Here's Alejandro Martinez' version which is probably more scientific. In spanish though. www.amtriathlon.com/.../brazadasporlargo-apeindex.html

RE: swimtypes.com

swimshark — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:04:12 GMT

Your stroke looks good. Here's a swinger here.... www.youtube.com/watch Note, his first length was just very slow warm up stuff. His long distance race pace (3.8k specialist) starts by length #2. As you can see, swingers can swim real well and smooth, they just do it using a stroke rate that's typically fairly high. At least, so is my understanding. Here's some (a limited sample here) of the theories behind this new swim types approach. Short article in English that discusses your Ape Index www.feelforthewater.com/.../whats-your-ape-index.html Here's Alejandro Martinez' version which is probably more scientific. In spanish though. www.amtriathlon.com/.../brazadasporlargo-apeindex.html That's interesting. I have an Ape index of about -1. But I think I have a relatively short stroke. Something else to think about. I loves Scott's kick. That's amazing.

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 10:39:36 GMT

Guess I'm the party pooper. The whole site seemed a bit silly and simplistic to me.

RE: swimtypes.com

__steve__ — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 10:24:45 GMT

Just realized I haven't swam an entire 400M without stopping since last winter, so I have no idea what my time would be. I don't have any plans to see what it is either, maybe 6 - 7 minutes lol. Anyhow, I classify myself as a short-distance freestyle and beginner fly swimmer:agree:. Do ape's even swim?

RE: swimtypes.com

swimshark — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 08:18:15 GMT

I don't think it looks bad at all. You keep your head down, you don't cross over with your arms, you keep your hand below your shoulders on the recovery and you've got pretty good rotation. I'm not sure I'd classify you as a swinger at all. Well, thank you. I've worked on it over the years. I used to hit my teammates in the other lanes because I swung so wide. I've gotten better at least.

RE: swimtypes.com

philoswimmer — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 05:49:10 GMT

Here's a swinger here.... www.youtube.com/watch Is it just me, or is his underwater hand position a bit off? I'm not trying to be critical -- I genuinely would like to know what people think, because recently someone has corrected my hand position to be straighter than what I see in this video.

RE: swimtypes.com

orca1946 — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 03:53:42 GMT

I guess I'm smooth with high elbow & a 6 beat kick for all but big distance.

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:05:49 GMT

If you are already swimming relatively fast (under 1:10 for SCY), I wouldn't worry much how that web site classifies you. It is really directed at triathletes who are swimming 1:30 and higher. Advice for that group may not be applicable to faster swimmers. I like swimsmooth and admire the way they are trying to adapt strokes to body types. But they really aren't geared to fast swimmers. For the record, I'm an overglider, and that is probably accurate, as I am in good shape but can't break 1:20 for 100 yards. As others have noted, that is practically their definition of an overglider.

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:22:12 GMT

It says I'm a "smooth" all the way, but reading the descriptions I think I have some "overglider" tendencies. As Lindsay noted by their definition an overglider can only be so fast, and the time I entered removed me from overglider consideration. :) yeah same thing. says im smooth with a splash of overglider. id swap 'em

RE: swimtypes.com

philoswimmer — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:27:00 GMT

I think that a kicker would distinguish herself primarily by being faster full stroke over longish distances than with a pull buoy. Like making it more easily on reps of 100 on relatively tight intervals done at relatively slow speed. If this feels easier full stroke than with a pull then you're a kicker of whatever the name given to strong kickers. It's a good thing for a fly specialist to be a kicker. Might explain in part why you can get away without swimming too much fly in practice. If my informal survey is at all representative (see Speed with pull buoy compared to speed without? - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums), then helluva lot of masters are kicktastic by this definition. And that just doesn't seem right. (Although I myself am likely kicktastic).

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 10:52:28 GMT

I believe I'm a swinger but I don't like the picture they put there. :afraid: I don't kick, never really have. Although I have worked more on high elbow and I think I've done a pretty good job but I don't rotate as much as I could. That was interesting to see. Thanks for sharing. I too am a non kicker and came out kicktastic. I really seemed to meet the swinger criteria verbatim. The picture was not flattering, but those videos showed some pretty good swimmers. I probably came out with so many issues that I couldn't be classified.

RE: swimtypes.com

Bobinator — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 10:34:06 GMT

I'm a swinger! I always wondered why I could beat so many people in ow who can crush me in the pool. I'm thinking about buying the guide. I liked the brief advice listed below the definition. I don't have a coach so maybe this will help! :agree:

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 10:07:05 GMT

Trust me, I'm not kicktastic YouTube- Part of my 500 free Indeed you look more like a swinger I believe.

RE: swimtypes.com

knelson — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:45:15 GMT

I didn't realize how badly I swing my arms out until I watched that again. I need to keep working on that in practice. I don't think it looks bad at all. You keep your head down, you don't cross over with your arms, you keep your hand below your shoulders on the recovery and you've got pretty good rotation. I'm not sure I'd classify you as a swinger at all.

RE: swimtypes.com

Former Member — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:31:31 GMT

If my informal survey is at all representative (see Speed with pull buoy compared to speed without? - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums), then helluva lot of masters are kicktastic by this definition. And that just doesn't seem right. (Although I myself am likely kicktastic). You're probably right. Other types may also be faster without the pull. Like some gliders for instance? You're right.

RE: swimtypes.com

swimshark — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 07:54:21 GMT

Indeed you look more like a swinger I believe. I didn't realize how badly I swing my arms out until I watched that again. I need to keep working on that in practice.