Aerobic base

RE: Aerobic base

ande — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 12:02:14 GMT

How much does childhood aerobic training impact aerobic characteristics later in life? It helps, significantly. Your ability to swim fast comes from yourtechnique, strength, body shape, fitness and conditioning. Prior training and prior ability contribute to current ability. Consider: How fast were you at your peak ability? How many years did you train at that level? How many years has it been between you peak ability and now? How fit did you keep during your hiatus? How have you recently trained? How old are you? Even if you didn't do significant aerobic training during your pre teen, teen, & post teen years. You can start now and improve.

RE: Aerobic base

__steve__ — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 07:13:04 GMT

How much does childhood aerobic training impact aerobic characteristics later in life?

RE: Aerobic base

Former Member — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:00:39 GMT

I'm going to post an unscientific reply: I have the time, alongside work, family and other commitments to train 3 times a week in the pool (for an hour). If I'm disciplined I can do a couple of gym sessions and/or jog. I don't have time to spend focusing on aerobic development. I don't believe that, in the time I have, I will develop a huge aerobic capacity. So, although I do more aerobic work further from my taper meets I focus more on getting up to race pace, which means 50-200 pace/intensity. By the last month or so before my main meet I am doing almost exclusively race pace work. I get a small amount of aerobic maintenance in warmups etc. Alongside swimming, my land work is important. I like to run, and will do 10ks etc. I suffer from chronic bowel disease so my commitment to running is inconsistent. However, this is still virtually my only purely aerobic exercise. In the gym I don't do sets of heavy weights. I "complexes" much of the time, which are mini circuits of 6 sets of 6 reps of 6 exercises (so 36 reps in a set, of varied exercises) using multiple body parts. This feels much like 100-200 race pace work in the pool - with my heart rate getting up towards 180 bpm and I'm serously sucking in air at the end! So I guess this is anaerobic. In short, if I had double the time in the pool I'd probably do more aerobic work. But not a lot!

RE: Aerobic base

knelson — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 03:18:04 GMT

www.swimmingcoach.org/.../newsletter10.pdf Masters shout out: 5 X 100 on 1:10...4 X 200 on 2:10...3 X 300 on 3:10...2 X 400 on 4:10...1 X 500 on 5:10. Two minute break and then we did the same set but the intervals were on a minute. I had a distance guy from California, a guy from New York, a guy from Florida, and a guy from Texas, and they all made it. The best performance was by Matt Hooper, who probably helped you down at the ASCA registration booth. He did this set and when he did it on a minute he went :56s on the 100s, 1:53s on the 200s, 2:51s in the 300s, 3:48 in the 400s, and 4:35 in the 500. That is a heck of a set. www.usms.org/.../indresults.php

RE: Aerobic base

knelson — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 02:20:29 GMT

Is the time that you can hold your breathe (for instance time under water) an indication? No. We're not training to hold our breath. One typical test is a timed swim for distance. For example, a T-30 (30 minute swim). Based on this you can determine your threshold pace and you can benchmark yourself by doing the T-30 every month or two.

RE: Aerobic base

Former Member — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 08:12:52 GMT

How can one measure the aerobic capacity? I know in running there is this Cooper test. Is the time that you can hold your breathe (for instance time under water) an indication?

RE: Aerobic base

mikeh — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 02:46:13 GMT

Excellent thread. Here is a recent Eddie Reese article on the topic, not sure if this was the one being referred to. www.swimmingcoach.org/.../newsletter10.pdf

RE: Aerobic base

Former Member — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 14:50:36 GMT

Allen, This is an important topic and I'd love to hear from other coaches. Specificity training is well understood and I think we nod our heads up and down but most coaches still create workouts that are nothing more than "tire you out" sets. I know you understand very well what I'm talking about but the coaches coming up in the ranks, if they're like most coaches, still use training strategies they grew up with. I recently recevied a newsletter from ASCA and one of the articles listed the top 5 hardest training sets. It pointed out that these tough sets made the great swimmers who did them, -- Great. I don't think it did and the article contributed to the notion that 10 x 1000 made a swimmer faster. I remember a great flyer who broke a world record and attributed his success to the 20 x 200 fly sets on 2min, he did consistently but his record was broken the next week by Michael Gross who trained with micro-yardage comparitivly speaking. Thanks again for keeping the thread alive. Coach T.

RE: Aerobic base

knelson — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 12:57:14 GMT

I'd be interested to know if Eddie Reese's thinking on this has changed over the years. That article was from 1997 if I recall correctly. At that time distance swimming wasn't looking great in the US, but in recent years there have been some great US distance swimmers, both male and female. Guys like Vanderkaay, Jensen and Vendt and gals like Ziegler and Hoff.

RE: Aerobic base

Former Member — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 12:15:14 GMT

I know it's a big question but... It wouldn't be that big of a question if we could first define what Base means. Or what aerobic Base means. I do know what it means in the world of Cycling as this topic has been beaten to death over the last 3 to 4 years; that is, following the release of Coggan's PMC (Performance Management Chart) model. If I take the same definition and apply it to swimming, then Base refers to your chronic work capacity. As simple as that really. The overall weekly workload you can handle is referred to as the Base. It used to be, in cycling, that the Base would be quantified in term of the volume you could perform. Andrew Coggan, Ph.D changed this by proposing a modified version of Banister's Trimp system. Basicially, it involves quantifying your Base in term of Volume*Intensity. To the best of my knowledge, the only scientist to have ever proposed a similar model applied to swimming is Dr.Phil Skiba. His Swim Score allows you to quantify the magnitude of your base using a Duration*intensity equation. Now, swim coaches being swim coaches, it could take ages before they become aware about the existence of these models. But that is another topic. For the time being, I would propose that the Base simply means your actual Chronic Work Capacity. Intensity put aside, it simply refers to the weekly volume you can sustain before getting over trained or injured etc..... The composition of your Base can include any sort of work (from low level endurance to anaerobic capacity sets). That is the first domain of discussion that Cyclists could sort out rapidly few years back. In other words, the Base is not exclusively made of low level endurance swimming. My swim Base at this time allows me to commit to workouts that don't exceed 3000m. Typical volume being more around 2000-2500. I can do 4 of them in a week. So given the composition of my Base (which is unknown since the swimming world couldn't care less about quantifying it at this time), my Weekly Chronic Training Load (or Work Capacity) is set to around 9-10k per week. I can not jump from this, to 20k per week without negative consequences. Ref (PMC) home.trainingpeaks.com/.../what-is-the-performance-management-chart.aspx Ref (Skiba Swim Score) www.physfarm.com/swimscore.pdf

RE: Aerobic base

rtodd — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 10:09:13 GMT

Conditioning the key Clyde kept going back to the theme of conditioning being key. He said: "Your body has two engines. One burns oxygen the other is anaerobic. The longer you can use engine one the more that delays going on to engine two.” ‘Going lactic’ means a build up of waste products. Clyde likened this to the build up of ash in a fire that then inhibits the proper burning of the remaining fuel. Going to the anaerobic system means more build up of lactate which is like the ash. So the late you move to the anaerobic system the better. Clyde said: "I had thought you would have to train fast to run fast. I no longer think that. You have to know how to run fast and you need a coach who teaches you to run fast. You need drills to enhance your fast twitch fibres but then it is a matter of conditioning. "Michael ran a 0.6sec difference between his first and second 200m in the world record. He could do that because the difference between his 200m split and 200m speed was good. Even pace is the best way to run. You were never going to beat Michael Johnson by beating him to 200m." Clyde Hart's thoughts from training Michael Johnson.

RE: Aerobic base

Former Member — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 05:15:32 GMT

This is a great article that I know you'll like. www.pponline.co.uk/.../0952.htm

RE: Aerobic base

Former Member — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:08:56 GMT

I think this was Eddie's point and it seemed like his talk was aimed at age group coaches. But what about masters swimmers? If we didn't get that aerobic base as kids are we forever hobbled by it? I really don't know the answer, but I think a good aerobic base is crucial for anyone interested in swimming events over 100 yards and it does seem to have a cumulative effect. When I first started back in masters my endurance wasn't great, but it has constantly improved over the years. I did have that aerobic base a child, though. People who didn't get that aerobic base as kids might just have a steeper hill to climb to establish a good aerobic base. I think this definitely effects how you train as an adult. I think former age grouper can get away with a lot less aerobic base work as masters and still swim extremely fast. Ala Ande's method. But if you weren't a former age grouper or never swam year round until masters, that aerobic base work becomes more important. For me, the seasons I've done more aerobic work (and more yards in general) I've swam my best 100 times (and 50 times, too). Its still very important to race a few times a week during practice. But just focusing on racing or speed work more in practice has generally yielded poor results for me.

RE: Aerobic base

Allen Stark — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:49:46 GMT

Linday and Ande, This is a huge question and one that is really important. I'd like to think swimmers would start training like the world class runners in track and field. I think the idea that a large base early in the season (the way it's been for over five decades) has got to be questioned. I have heard great scientific rationalizations from some of our best exercise physiologists but none that convice me that we shouldn't be increasing effective intensity, like Rebecca Addlington's coach Bill Furniss. I heard coach Furniss describe the race pace training strategy and it solidified my contention that swimmers train too much at levels under race pace. I believe technical practice that encourages positive stroke changes isn't the yardage I'm talking about, it's the 10 x 200 or 20 x 100 or 50 x 50's that aren't pace training yardage but aerobic and less than threshold bouts. For many swimmers reading this it may be confusing but let me put it another way. If you want to improve your 100 yard time, you don't do 10 x 100 on 1:30 and think that's going to help your speed unless you're in terrible shape and then almost any kind of swimming will help you get faster. For the swimmers who have been training and have hit plateaus, try increasing your rest interval substatially and increasing your intensity to race pace. As the season progresses and you get closer to your most important meet, increase the rest interval to a point where you drop your training times. No athlete from runners to cyclists train as insainly as swimmers. No one spends more time at near race pace times for as long as swimmers do, no one. The top marathon runners log just over 100 miles a week, top swimmers and that includes 200 and 400 meter swimming specialist log in nearly 60 miles a week and more. Track coaches see no reason why a personal best cannot be trained for each and every meet. When the feeling is right, a PR can be broken and a taper is rest before each meet. I think track coaches use stress adaptation better than swimming coaches do and I simply think we can improve our sport more by following some of their training strategies. I believe our lactate tolerance research is showing that mega yardage hurts more than it helps. I know this sounds off topic a bit but when seasons are defined by coaches, adding yardage only when stress adaptation is realized, makes sense. It also makes sense to start the season by recording best training times (race pace) for kicks, pulls, and swims then improving upon them throughout the season. I think this topic is an awesome one and I appreciate you bringing it up. I must appologize for it being so lengthy. Thanks, Coach T. Great post!!!!

RE: Aerobic base

Former Member — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:16:01 GMT

RE: Aerobic base

knelson — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 01:59:46 GMT

how do you establish and maintain an aerobic base? take care of it when you're really young I think this was Eddie's point and it seemed like his talk was aimed at age group coaches. But what about masters swimmers? If we didn't get that aerobic base as kids are we forever hobbled by it? I really don't know the answer, but I think a good aerobic base is crucial for anyone interested in swimming events over 100 yards and it does seem to have a cumulative effect. When I first started back in masters my endurance wasn't great, but it has constantly improved over the years. I did have that aerobic base a child, though. People who didn't get that aerobic base as kids might just have a steeper hill to climb to establish a good aerobic base.

RE: Aerobic base

rtodd — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 08:27:12 GMT

Just to add to what Ande said, A good aerobic base will help you buffer lactic acid in an anaerobic phase of training. It's important. That aerobic base helps you get through tough lactic acid workouts. Aerobic training was integral to Jeremy Wariner's gold medal season under Clyde Hart. Remember, anything effort 45 seconds or longer has a significant aerobic component.

RE: Aerobic base

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:13:46 GMT

I have been building mine since I joined USMS in 2003, so I would say that it is an ongoing process. I do moderate intensity sets of 1200-2400 yards with repeat distances of anywhere from 200s to 800s. I usually descend these, but that is not my primary focus.

RE: Aerobic base

ande — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 03:41:31 GMT

how do you establish and maintain an aerobic base? take care of it when you're really young, just like gull wrote: do long swims at an almost uncomfortable pace or do many repeat shorter swims with not much rest at that almost uncomfortable pace. if you consistently do this for days weeks months seasons years & age groups your almost comfortable pace or sustainable repeat pace should improve ie 10 x 100 fr holding an almost uncomfortable pace doing the same time on each repeat getting 5 to 10 seconds rest how do you know when to go from building the aerobic base to working on non-aerobic training? Depends what your goals are & how you respond to tapering. What are your focus events? if they are 200 & under, you should do both most of the season then enter a championship prep phase where you focus on speed & racing. If it's longer stuff, you should maintain more closer to your meet. Do you split your season or do you work on all aspects all the time? I split my season, a good coach will mix it all in & give you what you need when you need it. I think gentle aerobic training can help sprinters, but too much will make them slower. If I show up everyday and do the assigned longhorn masters workouts, at the end of the season I'll be well prepared for middle distance races & can venture down into sprints or up into those sick disgusting 1000's, 1500's 1650s 2ks, 3ks, 4ks, 5ks hour swims, 6ks, open water, & 10ks but probably not 25ks & the super disgusting extremely long cold water channel swims.