Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

coach moore — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 02:13:45 GMT

We do have the (4 x 50) 200m Fun Fin Relay Lots of fun and fast swimming too!

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 01:49:57 GMT

Head Coach Mark Moore at Mission Viejo Nadadores is hosting a long course relay meet on Saturday July 3rd. www.clubassistant.com/.../meet_information.cfm I've pitched the relay idea we've discussed here to him: Unattached-Unofficial "FUN" Teams. No records, no points - just FUN. Might create a little more revenue for the meet too. And did I mention FUN? :) Lets' see what he says... One thing I know is that Mark loves to have FUN! And the meet is in honor of his late son and masters swimmer, Patrick... who also loved to have FUN!

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 16:01:41 GMT

I would say this is what the NCAA does in some fashion. Plus they even recruit internationally to help break relay records. Just think if a state school was only permitted to recruit swimmers from within its state to be eligible to swim on that team. Yes, but this is only Masters, or so I've been told.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 14:38:35 GMT

I have been told that the reason for the above rule is because it is a FINA rule. I have not confirmed this. I believe their rules are online at www.fina.org. Arguably, the intent of that rule has been circumvented with the formation of regional teams, not to mention the practice of recruiting swimmers from across the country for purposes of breaking records. Anyway, I didn't think FINA had jurisdiction over scy competition.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 13:46:05 GMT

102.9.1 Relay teams shall not compete unattached. In all cases, relay teams must be composed of USMS members of the same club, which is a member of USMS. I have been told that the reason for the above rule is because it is a FINA rule. I have not confirmed this. I believe their rules are online at www.fina.org.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 12:24:25 GMT

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

jroddin — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 11:53:04 GMT

Arguably, the intent of that rule has been circumvented with the formation of regional teams, not to mention the practice of recruiting swimmers from across the country for purposes of breaking records. I would say this is what the NCAA does in some fashion. Plus they even recruit internationally to help break relay records. Just think if a state school was only permitted to recruit swimmers from within its state to be eligible to swim on that team. For those who want to disallow swimmers from registering across the country with a different club: how would you enforce it other than requiring a mailing address within the LMSC? Nowadays somebody could put down a bogus mailing address and never even get the hardcopy of their USMS card in the mail - they could simply download the PDF of their card and enter meets with their USMS number. Are you going to require a copy of their 1040 tax return to show proof of residence when they register? My point is the idea might have merit but if you can't implement it, you can't make the change. Sort of like allowing tech suits but not having any suit manufacturers to make the product (purely hypothetical analogy). :bolt:

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

jim thornton — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 11:34:22 GMT

Ah, Jim my fine fellow, I do believe that you would make a fine spokesperson for British Petroleum; in fact, I'll wager that you could come up with some pretty kinky containment devices (that would be at least as possible as what's been tried to this point) that would provide superior TV pictures for CNN to play endlessly while interviewing anyone who has ever been to the beach before. I am not sure where exactly Nanaimo is in the Province of British Columbia, but I have no doubts whatsoever it the home of perspicacious Canadian geniuses. Actually, Amanda--Chicken of the Sea--is an armchair inventor whose credits include the famous backstroke snorkel. I do think she might be able to solve this premature spillage problem. I must say, I never have been able to fix this in my own life.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:46:55 GMT

Swim for Nitro, Jim. Free team shirt, and I'll throw in a Starbuck's gift card. ... you're singing my tune, though I think Jim might need something stronger ...

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:21:16 GMT

Jim- perhaps the underwhelming response to this poll is due to the unfortunate juxtaposition of 'pick up' and 'Jim Thornton' at the start of the thread...

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

jim thornton — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 08:09:11 GMT

Jim- perhaps the underwhelming response to this poll is due to the unfortunate juxtaposition of 'pick up' and 'Jim Thornton' at the start of the thread... Peter, I am beginning to think you may be a half empty glass kind of a fellow. Nothing wrong with that! Personally, no matter how much water happens to be in a glass, I always suspect it is a mirage and that there is, in fact, zero real water there. That said, I must take issue with your characterization of my latest wildly popular poll. It has been less than three full years since I posted this early yesterday (or the day before), and already 68 people have voted, the vast majority of whom second my cry for freedom! I dare say if I had not carefully juxtaposed the phrase "pick up" with my by now legendarily attractive Woodstock avatar, the very jaundiced glimpse of which is rumored to trigger muscular twitchings in the dystaff Kegel regions, well, if I had not done this, I doubt even four people would have voted. I say four, because I only have three identities, plus my twin brother, with which to give my vlog 5 stars on a regular basis. Fortunately, I have not had to recruit all these alter egos to vote (in my favor, I must again add) on this wildly, wildly, to the point of lunatic popularity, popular poll. This glass, sir, is brimming over with mirage water! Of that you can rest assured all your laughing way to the bank!

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 05:36:47 GMT

That's a great argument, but it is also a two-edged sword. Since it is only masters, why do you care if other teams/relays want to break records? I was simply repeating what I was told on the other thread. Which I find a bit ironic.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

jim thornton — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 05:29:33 GMT

Interesting interpretation here... you see the word I underlined above. if swimmers of unattached or non-matching teams entered a relay as exhibition, were not scored and were not included in the results, they are technically not "competing" at the meet. That solves your desire to get up and swim a relay within the confines of the rules (albiet loosely) - but I think if you want times to count, you need to find yourself an honest-to-God team. A general definition of a "Relay Race" is: members of a team take turns performing a certain action. The rule, in that aspect, seems reasonable to me. If you really want to do relays that count, some suggestions: join a team with enough people to field relays regularly bring more teammates to meets - host a BBQ for your teammates if they come to a particular meet have your LMSC's default UNAT and/or out-of-LMSC team be a "regional team" to capture more swimmers (kind of like New England or PNA) Lastly, remember that not everyone is enthusiastic about doing relays. Our sport in general (and the athletes in particular) often place a higher value on individual achievements than on team and athletes commonly prefer to swim solely individual events. Moreover, at our level, we have total freedom to say no for any reason, as opposed to a USAS team, for example, where we need to follow coach's orders. On top of that, remember that some of us don't have unlimited supplies of gas in our tanks. And however inconvenient this may be for those who want to do relays (or those of us who create relays), I don't see much wrong with the above three reasons for declining to swim relays. Good points. For what it's worth, I don't like swimming relays at many meets, especially when these conflict with individual events and leave too little rest to swim my best in the latter. I did, however, enjoy last summer's LCM Nats whole day devoted to relays. If I had not gone to the trouble to officially join another team, I couldn't have swum anything on that Saturday. This actually happened, I am pretty sure, to Tom Patterson, who didn't have any relay teammates to swim with. The other thing is that the only times I have a chance to make the TT in individual events are early in the age group process. I will be swimming as a FINA 58 year old this summer, and if the recent SCY meet is any indication, my odds of making the Top 10 at this point are nil. However, it would be cool to make it on a relay! Oh, well. I will keep trying to talk my local friends into swimming the Zones LCM championships. If this doesn't work, I might look into becoming a Terrapin, 1776er, or GMUPer.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Muppet — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 02:09:31 GMT

102.9.1 Relay teams shall not compete unattached. In all cases, relay teams must be composed of USMS members of the same club, which is a member of USMS. Interesting interpretation here... you see the word I underlined above. if swimmers of unattached or non-matching teams entered a relay as exhibition, were not scored and were not included in the results, they are technically not "competing" at the meet. That solves your desire to get up and swim a relay within the confines of the rules (albiet loosely) - but I think if you want times to count, you need to find yourself an honest-to-God team. A general definition of a "Relay Race" is: members of a team take turns performing a certain action. The rule, in that aspect, seems reasonable to me. If you really want to do relays that count, some suggestions: join a team with enough people to field relays regularly bring more teammates to meets - host a BBQ for your teammates if they come to a particular meet have your LMSC's default UNAT and/or out-of-LMSC team be a "regional team" to capture more swimmers (kind of like New England or PNA) Lastly, remember that not everyone is enthusiastic about doing relays. Our sport in general (and the athletes in particular) often place a higher value on individual achievements than on team and athletes commonly prefer to swim solely individual events. Moreover, at our level, we have total freedom to say no for any reason, as opposed to a USAS team, for example, where we need to follow coach's orders. On top of that, remember that some of us don't have unlimited supplies of gas in our tanks. And however inconvenient this may be for those who want to do relays (or those of us who create relays), I don't see much wrong with the above three reasons for declining to swim relays.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:18:50 GMT

Yes, but this is only Masters, or so I've been told. That's a great argument, but it is also a two-edged sword. Since it is only masters, why do you care if other teams/relays want to break records? Just sayin'....

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 13:42:25 GMT

There were only 4 of us there. Aside from swimming on relays that didn't place, we tried to watch each other's races as much as possible. And the ragtag Team Hottub group was superb in this respect -- tons of cheering and support. ragtag? Are you effen kidding me...the original nucleus was all there with perhaps the omission of Borky, Kyra and Barb! :bump:

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 12:10:04 GMT

I will vouch for that story and note that the swimmer still mentions that once in awhile. Meanwhile, he is always there at practice and is an inspiration to us all. He was smart and purchased the extended warranty.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 09:47:57 GMT

Gull throws Starbucks cards around like candy on Halloween. Just one of many perks awaiting Mr.Thornton. We're still negotiating.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

TRYM_Swimmer — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 07:30:50 GMT

Funny! True story: A few years ago I had to leave practice early with one of my teammates after he began having chest pain in the next lane. I wasn't swimming well anyway, so it was all good. I will vouch for that story and note that the swimmer still mentions that once in awhile. Meanwhile, he is always there at practice and is an inspiration to us all.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

The Fortress — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 07:22:02 GMT

Well, I've got enough on my plate. And to be completely candid, it is not really all that important to me. :) But at least we'll still have this nice little poll to talk about... Did you just agree you were a Minutiae Fiddler? Jim, it's a lovely idea and perhaps someone will care enough to make your vision happen or to be entertained. Otherwise, I think pimping and whoring is the standard option de jour.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 07:15:53 GMT

To you I ask simply, "Can you make it happen?" Well, I've got enough on my plate. And to be completely candid, it is not really all that important to me. :) But at least we'll still have this nice little poll to talk about...

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

jim thornton — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 06:00:02 GMT

Polls, declaration of strong opinions: those things are nice. But if you want to actually DO something, you've got the following problem in the Rule Book: Proposed rule additions/amendments are also due July 10, barely a month from now: www.usms.org/.../gto_conv_rulesamend.pdf According to 601.2.1, proposal for rule changes come from the LMSC, a standing committee, the Board of Directors or the Executive Committee. So it seems to me that there are two logical options here (others with more knowledge can correct or add to this): -- get your LMSC board/chair to propose some change to 102.9.1 -- ask the chair of the championship committee to add a rules in 104.5 (Conduct of National Championship Meets) allowing "pickup" relays such as you describe, perhaps as exhibition. I seriously doubt you would ever get these approved for records or top ten consideration, but maybe there is a chance they could be approved for placing in the championship meet. If the Championship Committee won't recommend your desired proposal (or feels the committee is too busy to consider it...the chair is, after all, a notorious slacker :)) then get your LMSC board to consider proposing an addition to 104.5 directly to the Rules Committee. Contact Kathy Casey if you have questions about rules. She isn't all that busy. :) Chris, Chris! You know that I am Visionary, a Big Idea Ideator, a Dreamer of Things That Aren't For Which I Ask Why Not? Surely, there are minutiae fiddlers blessed with parliamentary-style natures, who enjoy nothing more than to spend hours, days, weeks, perhaps lifetimes pouring over the nuts and bolts that must be tweaked to make Jim Thornton's Every Little Whim Come True? Where are you Minutiae Fiddlers whose very existence I now, in my Visionary's way, imagine must exist somewhere? To you I bequeathe my latest Idea and people's choice Mandate! To you I ask simply, "Can you make it happen?" To you I promise, sort of, to share credit for the Thornton Rule for Relay Composition, aka, Thornton's Pick-Up Codicil. Once again, to minutiae fiddlers everywhere, Can you make this happen??? Get back to me, won't you, when it's done. I am thinking up new ideas for you to pursue next.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 05:58:55 GMT

Tell Ron Orris I expect to see him there! Sadly he has not been swimming in months. But we have not given up on him.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 05:33:26 GMT

Funny! True story: A few years ago I had to leave practice early with one of my teammates after he began having chest pain in the next lane. I wasn't swimming well anyway, so it was all good.

RE: Pick-Up Relay Teams at USMS Meets?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 05:12:58 GMT

Swim for Nitro, Jim. Free team shirt, and I'll throw in a Starbuck's gift card. We were the only team in Atlanta (to my knowledge) that assembled on deck for every teammate's event. We plan to send more swimmers to Mesa.