Regional Teams: What's the Point?

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 13:33:12 GMT

Practicing at multiple pools has nothing to do with it, at least according to the rules. (For example, Indy Swim Fit is a local team even though it has multiple pools.) The rule is "a Regional Club consists of a club made up of those swimmers who represent a club at nationals, but at competitions within their LMSC, they compete for an entity or subgroup (such as a workout group) that is different than the one they compete with at nationals." And a local club is a club that is not a regional club. Thanks for the clarification Chris. I pulled up some Zones results, and it looks like we don't have any division of teams in our Zone.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 12:08:26 GMT

This is an issue that is important to many who do compete. Regardless of the numbers, that should be enough to create some discussion, period, end of story. The vast overwhelming majority of us don't swim with Walnut Creek but we are all upset, intrigued and interested in the status of that program. Not all issues have to impact the entire community for them to be of concern to the general membership population. And, no one has ever suggested this issue become all-consuming. This issue is not, nor should be all consuming. But it has and will again get its fair discussion time. The whole spectrum of issues raised by the highly visible and vocal minority does have that potential to overshadow other issues that might better serve USMS as a whole and that was my point. Walnut creek and this issue is not a good comparison to this one. Unless you do believe the impact is limited only to members and coaches at Walnut creek. And I don't believe you do.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 11:44:51 GMT

No the minority discounts the issues that may be important to the larger population by being the squeaky wheel. Its all to easy to focus on the issues raised by this particular group and completely overlook the fact that the rest of the USMS population may have issues or needs they want to address as well. Good, we have identified the champions of the unvoiced majority, the protectors of the the silent opinion of the masses. Thank you Adam and Kevin. Gull, is this a problem in South Central Zones. Are DAM and TXLA considered regional teams since they practice at multiple pools, or a normal team because they are run under one organization? Or does no one care at the Zone level in our Zone? Although I don't agree with you, I am sorry that your friend didn't have a chance to medal, but I do hope that he had a very good Nationals experience. I got to meet forum friends for the first time, but it would have been great to have team friends there with me as well. Your presence probably made more difference than the medal would have.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:19:22 GMT

So the people who compete at Nationals are discounting the opinion of the people who don't compete at Nationals on the topics of how Nationals should be scored and if regional teams should be allowed to compete at Nationals? No the minority discounts the issues that may be important to the larger population by being the squeaky wheel. Its all to easy to focus on the issues raised by this particular group and completely overlook the fact that the rest of the USMS population may have issues or needs they want to address as well. And to the issue at hand with regional teams, Zones are scored the same way and are subject to the same issue of larger teams dominating due to a huge number of relays. Why should only those who compete at nationals have an say in what could potential affect my local zone meet? Its easy to overlook these things and focus on the more visible and more vocal.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 08:54:54 GMT

He pointed out that while he is part of this minority, this group is also the most vocal and the most active so it is easy to overlook the Majority of swimmers who do not compete at nationals. Its a far cry from saying this group is less important. This group is essentially the squeaky wheel and generally discounts / overlooks the needs and opinions of the swimmers not at nationals. So the people who compete at Nationals are discounting the opinion of the people who don't compete at Nationals on the topics of how Nationals should be scored and if regional teams should be allowed to compete at Nationals?

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 08:46:14 GMT

I like statistics and all, but I don't get your point for repeatedly pointing out someone is a minority. I didn't understand why you made the point the first time, and I don't understand why it needed to be repeated. He pointed out that while he is part of this minority, this group is also the most vocal and the most active so it is easy to overlook the Majority of swimmers who do not compete at nationals. Its a far cry from saying this group is less important. This group is essentially the squeaky wheel and generally discounts / overlooks the needs and opinions of the swimmers not at nationals. Face it, if you make a change to the scoring to lessen the impact on larger teams "all star" teams would pop up and we would be having a similar discussion while doing nothing that benefits the majority of USMS Swimmers.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 08:20:14 GMT

Are DAM and TXLA considered regional teams since they practice at multiple pools, or a normal team because they are run under one organization? Practicing at multiple pools has nothing to do with it, at least according to the rules. (For example, Indy Swim Fit is a local team even though it has multiple pools.) The rule is "a Regional Club consists of a club made up of those swimmers who represent a club at nationals, but at competitions within their LMSC, they compete for an entity or subgroup (such as a workout group) that is different than the one they compete with at nationals." And a local club is a club that is not a regional club.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 07:46:39 GMT

Zones are scored the same way and are subject to the same issue of larger teams dominating due to a huge number of relays. Actually, this needn't be true at all. In the Rule Book (rule 104.5.6 "Club Scoring"), the categories of Regional and Local clubs are defined under the broader heading of 104.5 "Conduct of National Championship Meets." Nothing prevents your Zone Championship from using another system. I know our latest Colonies Zone Championships used the "Small/Medium/Large" categories, for example.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 07:33:25 GMT

About 300 (out of 1,100) of the projected 2,200 attendees of next year's Spring Nationals will be from Arizona. If you figure USMS will have around 46,000 members at the end of April 2011 that means less than 5% of registered members will be competing at the Kino Aquatics Center. I will be one of them and I will be stoked...but I (we?) will also be a tiny percentage of USMS. Those of us at the meet will have a great time, swim fast, and enjoy some wonderful weather. Over 40,000 of our fellow swimmers won't know or care however. Its OK though, as long as they are staying fit and realizing their goals then that is fine. These are the majority of our members, so all our talk about relays, scoring, and the like simply does not register. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Those of us who compete (including myself) are a vocal yet active minority in masters swimming. We are the ones who basically run the organization, go to the meets, and set the direction for others to follow. There is nothing wrong with this so long as we are aware of the needs of the majority of our members and seek to address them. Just my :2cents:, see you all in Mesa next Spring. ...oh and Puerto Rico this Summer. FOR NATIONALS!!!!!!!!!:bliss: I like statistics and all, but I don't get your point for repeatedly pointing out someone is a minority. I didn't understand why you made the point the first time, and I don't understand why it needed to be repeated.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

The Fortress — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 07:26:39 GMT

No the minority discounts the issues that may be important to the larger population by being the squeaky wheel. How do you know? I'm in favor of flogs, GTD, check off challenges and all the like -- even though I do none of them. Most of my time in the pool I'm surrounded by fitness swimmers and lap swimmers.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

aquageek — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 07:11:49 GMT

No the minority discounts the issues that may be important to the larger population by being the squeaky wheel. This is an issue that is important to many who do compete. Regardless of the numbers, that should be enough to create some discussion, period, end of story. The vast overwhelming majority of us don't swim with Walnut Creek but we are all upset, intrigued and interested in the status of that program. Not all issues have to impact the entire community for them to be of concern to the general membership population. And, no one has ever suggested this issue become all-consuming.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:01:59 GMT

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

aquageek — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 04:02:22 GMT

less than 5% Yes, but 100% of the people attending nationals do care about scoring and placing and times. So, serve your audience in attendance, not the ones on the sidelines. Nationals is 1.1% of the year yet 5% or so attend, so we are getting shortchanged. There you go Q, more stats.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Doug Adamavich — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 03:14:16 GMT

Doug - I hope others in your LMSC, and Mesa in particular, have a more enthusiastic attitude about Nationals. If I'm paying to go all the way to AZ in 2011 I hope to make it a special trip, not one where I'm told the opinions of those who compete is relatively unimportant. About 300 (out of 1,100) of the projected 2,200 attendees of next year's Spring Nationals will be from Arizona. If you figure USMS will have around 46,000 members at the end of April 2011 that means less than 5% of registered members will be competing at the Kino Aquatics Center. I will be one of them and I will be stoked...but I (we?) will also be a tiny percentage of USMS. Those of us at the meet will have a great time, swim fast, and enjoy some wonderful weather. Over 40,000 of our fellow swimmers won't know or care however. Its OK though, as long as they are staying fit and realizing their goals then that is fine. These are the majority of our members, so all our talk about relays, scoring, and the like simply does not register. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Those of us who compete (including myself) are a vocal yet active minority in masters swimming. We are the ones who basically run the organization, go to the meets, and set the direction for others to follow. There is nothing wrong with this so long as we are aware of the needs of the majority of our members and seek to address them. Just my :2cents:, see you all in Mesa next Spring. ...oh and Puerto Rico this Summer. FOR NATIONALS!!!!!!!!!:bliss:

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

aquageek — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:35:16 GMT

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Doug Adamavich — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:20:22 GMT

You know what, this post annoys me. For the 1,977 of us there it was a big deal, for some a really big deal. While certainly a small percentage, those of us that compete are probably the biggest supporters of USMS with our money and time. Well, if you calculate that there are 19x more people who *don't* swim at Nationals than who do...that assertion does not add up. The Usual Suspects (myself included) who go to a National meet each year are a fraction of the total membership. Many of the things we discuss in the forums and amongst ourselves doesn't register with our teammates who just want to stay fit. Hey, swimming at Nationals is a lot of fun and a great event to focus one's training on. Just keep in mind that for most of our members it is not something that enters their consciousness. My goal in Atlanta was not to further the mission of USMS explicitly but to swim fast. So, please don't discount the opinions of those who actually took the time, paid the money to promote the sport through competition at our biggest and most visible annual event. Nobody is discounting, merely putting things into perspective. Sometimes we need to step back for a moment from the debate surrounding Regional vs. Local Club and other issues. It is not a big deal for most members who couldn't recite (or care) who the top ten clubs were in either category. I'm jus' sayin'... Also, if memory serves the One Hour Postal is the largest National Championship that US Masters Swimming runs. I think there were over 2,600 swimmers who did that event this year. OK, back to the :argue:

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:44:26 GMT

There is no way you would be able to agree on the order. Oh and a medley relay....Dear God!!! :afraid: The problem is where to put Fort on the relay. Geek's position, no problem. He will act in the same capacity as the kid do at USA nationals, he will collect the gear and take it back to the team area for the swimmers afterwards. Unless the relay is a 4x1000 free. Then swap Fort and Geek's role, with Fort doing nothing that geek was supposed to do.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:29:51 GMT

I can see no valid reason why we can't have a Snotty Forum Poster relay. Well, apart from the fact that Geek lives in the Dixie Zone ... There is no way you would be able to agree on the order. Oh and a medley relay....Dear God!!! :afraid:

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:28:02 GMT

Bill and Leslie: first official nominees for The 2010 Mr. and Ms. USMS Snotty Forum Poster Awards (informally referred to as The Snooties). You go, guys! The Snooty Trophy will be based on this: www.pinoytutorial.com/.../cold3.jpg ...and Jim's trophy will be identical but mounted on his belt buckle... :bolt:

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:08:39 GMT

I for one kind of agree with Doug...maybe if we treated people with a little bit more respect on these forums (makes me wonder how some of you treat people around your pools) we might actually get more people out to some of the meets. Isn't the idea to promote swimming? Not run people off? Just wondering... Go ahead and blast away... How many people on the forums do compete? How many don't compete? I would say the majority of people on the forums are very nice to people at the pools we swim. I know Geek and Fort. On the forum, they can come across as brash, arrogant, snotty. But in person, they are 2 of the nicest people I have ever met(just using you two as an example) So, I don't think it's safe to say our forum behavior is how we behave away from the computer.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:53:18 GMT

You know what, this post annoys me. For the 1,977 of us there it was a big deal, for some a really big deal. While certainly a small percentage, those of us that compete are probably the biggest supporters of USMS with our money and time. My goal in Atlanta was not to further the mission of USMS explicitly but to swim fast. So, please don't discount the opinions of those who actually took the time, paid the money to promote the sport through competition at our biggest and most visible annual event. I for one kind of agree with Doug...maybe if we treated people with a little bit more respect on these forums (makes me wonder how some of you treat people around your pools) we might actually get more people out to some of the meets. Isn't the idea to promote swimming? Not run people off? Just wondering... Go ahead and blast away...

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:47:46 GMT

To put things in perspective, less than 5% of US Masters Swimmers participate at Nationals. In other words, all the consternation regarding Regional vs. Local clubs, relays, and the like is small potatoes for the vast majority of members. It's not really worth it to get worked-up about these things, the focus should be on how to strengthen masters swimming programs and get more people in the water. If some wish to compete that's great, but what is more important is that swimmers of all ages and abilities find a place where they can get fit, meet new friends, and become better athletes. Thanks for putting things back in perspective for me. Think I'll sleep in tomorrow and skip practice. Throw away the clippers. Stop worrying about my dry land program. What a relief.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:47:08 GMT

It's actually only about 3% +/- if there are 50,000+ members...

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:06:09 GMT

It's Fort's ultimate nightmare - a super team in the Dixie Zone. I don't understand why she gives the DZ a bad rap over one meet in north carolina. She should be giving NCMS hell, not the entire DZ. She should have realized that ncms is the problem, since it is one large regional team. They conspired together so that her swims would disappear from the datebase, so that she would have to redo her efforts in order to knock someone from ncms down the rankings. It was a plot by a large, cheatin regonial team to damage the pysche of a star usms athlete.

RE: Regional Teams: What's the Point?

jim thornton — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 12:44:21 GMT

Rich, besides Kleenex, the waist-mounted dispenser would need to have some sort of bottle with a hypoallergenic emollient. But I like the way you are thinking here! (Lord, I hope Ahelee isn't reading this thread. How soon before you and I join the List of Malefactors banned for life for inappropriate jocularity, or, as it is also sometimes called, word rape?) Could the rest of you please take a moment to visit and vote on my just established poll here? forums.usms.org/showthread.php Thanks!