The IM Lane

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 08:50:16 GMT

Good question. I am not a coach so take my advice with a grain or a shaker of salt. The workout was from Swimming World and the coach was a college coach. So I would expect these intervals are set for his college swimmers. They should be close to 1:00 per 100 in fly and back, faster for free, and close to that for ***. IF that is a valid guess, then the interval times seem to be about 1:1 swim:rest ratio on the 25's - 15sec swim/ 15 sec rest = 30 sec interval. I would guess you would want 15-20 secs rest on the 25's. The article mention working on speed for fly and back. Working on speed usually means getting a little more rest in the interval. Well, grain or shaker, it makes sense to me. Ten seconds of rest wasn't allowing me to swim at my "best effort" pace, so I will revise the intervals accordingly. Thanks!

RE: The IM Lane

fatboy — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 06:48:01 GMT

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 01:32:40 GMT

Elaine - Here's an article that explains what I was trying to say quite a bit better than I did. It also has a ssample workout. I think you will like it www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/.../39742.asp I did this workout today; however, I (obviously!) need to make adjustments in the intervals in order to give my best efforts when needed. Getting just a few seconds at times would have left me :whiteflag:. Question: How much rest should I allow myself on these intervals? I aimed for 10 seconds most of the time; however, I will admit at times I allowed 15 or 20 to keep from :drowning:.

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 05:52:41 GMT

Elaine - Here's an article that explains what I was trying to say quite a bit better than I did. It also has a ssample workout. I think you will like it www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/.../39742.asp That's excellent- thanks! :applaud: Any idea how I could view and save that workout into something I could read at one glance? It would be nice to print out; however, copying it into Word was a jumbled mess! :dunno:\ Never mind. I'm getting it to work in Word by widening the columns...

RE: The IM Lane

fatboy — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 05:46:57 GMT

Elaine - Here's an article that explains what I was trying to say quite a bit better than I did. It also has a ssample workout. I think you will like it www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/.../39742.asp

RE: The IM Lane

fatboy — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 11:31:13 GMT

I've given this some thought, and I have changed my mind- at least until I am more convinced this would be a good set. Why do 20 or 40 in a row of the same stroke? The longest IM is 400, and the longest one-stroke event (other than free) is 200. Since I am training for the 400 IM, 200 fly, and 200 breaststroke, wouldn't it make more sense for me to do 20 x 25 on :45 holding 200 pace and swim it as 5 of each stroke? If I did 40 x 25, I would do 10 of each stroke. If I did 20 or 40 of just fly, I think the negatives (repetitive stress of my shoulders and a reduction of speed would outweigh the positives. I just don't think I would be able to hold pace for that many reps. AND keep my stroke together. At 52 with a past history of repetitive stress injuries, not changing stroke could be an injury inducer. :eek: This is an interesting question. You started me thinking about it. For fly and back I would think you can train for a 200. For breaststroke, you have already swum 200, so you really need to train for a 300. For free, you start at 300 so you should train for at least a 400. Since fly, back and *** are less efficient than free you will probably be more fatigued at the 300 of the 400im than at 300 of 400 free. Makes me think that you should probably train for 500 free. I'd like to hear others chime in. Anyone else have thoughts? I set that I liked when training for 200 or 400 IM was 2 x (8 x 50 swum as 50 fly,25 fly/25bk, 50 back, 25 bk/25 br, 50 br, 25 br/25 fr, 50 free, 25 fr/25 fly) You get to practice all the turns in this set.

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 05:40:46 GMT

Elaine - my thought is that for a 400 IM you swim 100 fly - but you can't take it out at your 100 fly pace, so it will usually be at your 200 fly pace. For back you have already swum 100 fly, so you are already too tired to swim your 100 back pace, but you can probably swim your 200 back pace. So for fly and back you can train the same as you do for a 200 of each stroke. By the time you get to breaststroke you have already swum 200 yards (or meters). So you are about as tired as you are after a 200 breaststroke - so IMHO you need to train as if you were going to swim a 300 breaststroke. By the time you get to the free style you already have 300 yds in. You are probably more fatigued than if you swam 300 free since the other stroke are not as efficient. So you need to train for 500 free not just 400 free. Hope that makes sense. The amount of rest really depends on the swimmer and your focus for the workout that day. 15-20 seconds rest between 50s maybe for the 400 IM to build endurance. Less rest if you can still hold your desired pace. You might want to go longer rest sometimes to work on speed. I am not a coach and definitely not a fast swimmer so I don't really know what would work for you. I just go with rule of thumb that shorter rest between repeats builds endurance , longer rest lets you swim faster so helps build speed. That's a pretty broad generalization, so there are many people on the forum here that can help you more with the amount of rest. I just like the set because you practice all the turns and I don't get bored in the middle. :doh:Now it makes sense! Thanks for clarifying that for me. :D

RE: The IM Lane

fatboy — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 05:21:24 GMT

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 01:31:09 GMT

This is an interesting question. You started me thinking about it. For fly and back I would think you can train for a 200. For breaststroke, you have already swum 200, so you really need to train for a 300. For free, you start at 300 so you should train for at least a 400. Since fly, back and *** are less efficient than free you will probably be more fatigued at the 300 of the 400im than at 300 of 400 free. Makes me think that you should probably train for 500 free. I'd like to hear others chime in. Anyone else have thoughts? I set that I liked when training for 200 or 400 IM was 2 x (8 x 50 swum as 50 fly,25 fly/25bk, 50 back, 25 bk/25 br, 50 br, 25 br/25 fr, 50 free, 25 fr/25 fly) You get to practice all the turns in this set. Hmmm, you lost me on that first paragraph. I'm not following you. :confused: BUT, I do like your set for training IM. :agree: How much rest in between 50's?

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 04:54:20 GMT

That sounds like a good set for IM; I mentioned the 40 x 25 set for one stroke b/c I know you mentioned swimming the 200s and I think that, applying some of the ultra-short race-pace training principles, 25 is a better distance to do at 200 pace for a long set. When I try to do long sets of 50s I can't hold 200 pace unless the rest interval increases a lot... and then that defeats the idea of ultra-short (i.e., get used to the race-pace by doing lots of shorter intervals with shorter rests; a principle most of us already apply when training for 1500+... lots of 100s at pace, w/ short rest). My training partners and I did a lot of training for the 400 IM over the last year and one of our staple sets became 80 x 25 on :45 IMO; i.e., twenty 25s on each stroke, and we held paces between 100 and 200-goal for most of the set. At :45, each stroke takes 15 minutes... then we would do a 100 recovery swim and start the next stroke on the next :00. This was our Sunday afternoon workout for several months and we saw our 4IM times drop a lot! I was swimming around 7:00 last fall and swam a 6:37 in March, and the only regular feature of my training regimen last spring was that set of 25s (I had a fairly erratic winter-spring w/ illness and life transitions). I know they say USRPT doesn't work the same for IM as for individual strokes, but I think the fatigue you learn to work through in that long set really helps to simulate meet situations, where we struggle to hold form on *** and free, for example, after going out hard in fly and back. Those frees at the end of the set are not easy (we often drop the interval down to :40 or even :30), but you can hold form and pace for 25 (if we had to turn and finish a 50, the form would fall apart really quickly). Thanks for the feedback! I would be curious to see how I hold up for 80 (rather than the 32 I swam) x 25. I'll give it a try and see what happens. Since I will be racing 400 IM AND 200's of fly and ***, I'm trying to train for all of them.

RE: The IM Lane

mcnair — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 02:41:31 GMT

To follow up on yesterday's post, I did the following set today: 32x25 @ :45, 8 of each stroke. Although my fly's were steady at 200 pace, I was able to easily hold 100 pace (or slightly faster) for each of the other strokes. In addition, I was able to keep my stroke technique strong throughout the entire set. Next time out, perhaps I should shorten the interval to :40. Although the set wasn't easy, it wasn't hard either. What are your thoughts on this? Did I get too much rest at an interval of :45 for it to be of benefit? That sounds like a good set for IM; I mentioned the 40 x 25 set for one stroke b/c I know you mentioned swimming the 200s and I think that, applying some of the ultra-short race-pace training principles, 25 is a better distance to do at 200 pace for a long set. When I try to do long sets of 50s I can't hold 200 pace unless the rest interval increases a lot... and then that defeats the idea of ultra-short (i.e., get used to the race-pace by doing lots of shorter intervals with shorter rests; a principle most of us already apply when training for 1500+... lots of 100s at pace, w/ short rest). My training partners and I did a lot of training for the 400 IM over the last year and one of our staple sets became 80 x 25 on :45 IMO; i.e., twenty 25s on each stroke, and we held paces between 100 and 200-goal for most of the set. At :45, each stroke takes 15 minutes... then we would do a 100 recovery swim and start the next stroke on the next :00. This was our Sunday afternoon workout for several months and we saw our 4IM times drop a lot! I was swimming around 7:00 last fall and swam a 6:37 in March, and the only regular feature of my training regimen last spring was that set of 25s (I had a fairly erratic winter-spring w/ illness and life transitions). I know they say USRPT doesn't work the same for IM as for individual strokes, but I think the fatigue you learn to work through in that long set really helps to simulate meet situations, where we struggle to hold form on *** and free, for example, after going out hard in fly and back. Those frees at the end of the set are not easy (we often drop the interval down to :40 or even :30), but you can hold form and pace for 25 (if we had to turn and finish a 50, the form would fall apart really quickly).

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 01:56:18 GMT

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Fri, 27 Jun 2014 05:50:24 GMT

I agree; I think it's a much better set for back than for fly... I've done 20 x 25 on :45 with fly, holding between 100-200 pace. You might start there. I might do the 40 x 25 back later today. I've given this some thought, and I have changed my mind- at least until I am more convinced this would be a good set. Why do 20 or 40 in a row of the same stroke? The longest IM is 400, and the longest one-stroke event (other than free) is 200. Since I am training for the 400 IM, 200 fly, and 200 breaststroke, wouldn't it make more sense for me to do 20 x 25 on :45 holding 200 pace and swim it as 5 of each stroke? If I did 40 x 25, I would do 10 of each stroke. If I did 20 or 40 of just fly, I think the negatives (repetitive stress of my shoulders and a reduction of speed would outweigh the positives. I just don't think I would be able to hold pace for that many reps. AND keep my stroke together. At 52 with a past history of repetitive stress injuries, not changing stroke could be an injury inducer. :eek:

RE: The IM Lane

mcnair — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:39:27 GMT

:drowning: :whiteflag:The only way I could imagine doing that as a fly set would be to cruise those 25's. Putting any speed into it would be brutal! (Funny, but that set sounds way more difficult than the continuous 2,000 fly I swam at a VERY cruise pace.) Why don't you give it a try and report back to us! ;) I agree; I think it's a much better set for back than for fly... I've done 20 x 25 on :45 with fly, holding between 100-200 pace. You might start there. I might do the 40 x 25 back later today.

RE: The IM Lane

mcnair — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 05:04:10 GMT

I'll try it over the weekend. Tomorrow, I'm going to try to improve my times on the fly set Karl suggested over on The Butterfly Lane before continuing on with my Fast Friday sprint workout. I did a couple of those broken 200s today in my transition from warm-up to the main set (40 x 25 bk on :40). Went :47, :49, :49, :49 on the 4 x 50 fly on 1:00 (slower than I was a few months ago), then 100 bk recovery, then :38, :40, :40, :39 on 4 x 50 fr on :10r. But both add-ups are pretty good reflection of my SCY PRs in the 200 events (mid 3:10s in fly, high 2:30s in free). The 40 x 25 bk set, was definitely goal pace for 200... no way I could do that many reps of 25 at 50 or 100 pace right now... I was right around :22 for most of the set (my short-term goal is to break 3:00 the next time I swim 200 back SCY).

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 01:44:12 GMT

I agree; I think it's a much better set for back than for fly... I've done 20 x 25 on :45 with fly, holding between 100-200 pace. You might start there. I might do the 40 x 25 back later today. I'll try it over the weekend. Tomorrow, I'm going to try to improve my times on the fly set Karl suggested over on The Butterfly Lane before continuing on with my Fast Friday sprint workout.

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 10:20:58 GMT

Also, inspired by USRPT, I'm thinking about incorporating a 40 x 25 on :40 set for back... I imagine that would be great for your fly too. :drowning: :whiteflag:The only way I could imagine doing that as a fly set would be to cruise those 25's. Putting any speed into it would be brutal! (Funny, but that set sounds way more difficult than the continuous 2,000 fly I swam at a VERY cruise pace.) Why don't you give it a try and report back to us! ;)

RE: The IM Lane

mcnair — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 09:52:59 GMT

I like the 4 x 50 fly set after the warm-up too. I can really tell how good a shape I'm in for fly by doing that set. Now that I'm thinking about useful sets that I haven't done in a while... 8 x 25 dolphins (bk or front) w/ fins on an close interval (:30 for me) is another great one for warm-ups or maybe beginning of cool-downs (nice core and leg conditioning among other things). The last month I've let my fly go somewhat and have focused on 200 back; 20 x 50 on 1:00 at 200 pace is one of my favorite sets for that. Also, inspired by USRPT, I'm thinking about incorporating a 40 x 25 on :40 set for back... I imagine that would be great for your fly too.

RE: The IM Lane

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 07:04:00 GMT

I couldn't find this thread when I did an advanced search; however, fatboy did. Thanks! Evidently, I have posted on this thread in the past. Two of my favorite non-core events are the 200 fly and 400 IM, and my goal is to improve my times for both of them. (At this point, I'm better at the 400 IM.) What are your favorite sets to train for IM races? Laurie Hug has excellent workouts in the "Stroke and IM Workouts" thread, and this is one of my favorites (posted on January 12): WORKOUT #2 W/U: 2-1-2-1-2 (200 dr/sw, 100k, 200p, 100k, 200 im dr/sw) (800) PS: 16 x 75: 1-4 on 1:15 or 1:25 or 1:35 or R10s: IM order 5-8 on 1:10 or 1:20 or 1:30 or R10s: 50 IM order/25 free 9-12 on 1:05 or 1:15 or 1:25 or R10s: 25 IM order/50 free 13-16 on 1:00 or 1:10 or 1:15 or R10s: free (1200) MS: 1 x 1000 (800 – skip last 200) done as: 200: alt 25 fast fly/25 easy free 200: alt 50 fast bk/50 easy free 200: 100 fast br/100 easy free 200: IM: 25 drill/25 fast 200: easy free 8 (or 6 – skip the last 2) x 100 on 1:30 or 1:45 or 2:00 Odds=Fast IMO or prime working the turns and finish Evens=Easy free descending stroke count by 25 (1400-1800) CD: 200-400 done as 50 ch dr/50 ch/50 fr dr/50 fr (2x) Total: 3600-4200 Today, I swam it as 3,600 and then added Karl's 4x50 fly set (after the warm up) and some extra kicking (at the end before cool down) to round it out to 4,000 yards. This workout kicks my:mooning:, but I am determined kick it back! :cheerleader: Please join in on this thread if you're like me and love ALL of the strokes! :banana:

RE: The IM Lane

fatboy — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 05:24:45 GMT

Bump

RE: The IM Lane

rxleakem — Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:42:08 GMT

The 2013 Checkoff Challenge includes the 800 IM :bliss: www.usms.org/.../tracking_sheet.pdf I'm game, for some pain. :thewave:

RE: The IM Lane

That Guy — Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:42:11 GMT

Did you have anything to do with this? An absolute outrage!! :D I had nothing to do with it, but I will begrudgingly complete the challenge. :banana:RAAAAGE:banana:

RE: The IM Lane

jaadams1 — Tue, 11 Dec 2012 08:03:58 GMT

The 2013 Checkoff Challenge includes the 800 IM :bliss: www.usms.org/.../tracking_sheet.pdf Did you have anything to do with this? An absolute outrage!! :D

RE: The IM Lane

orca1946 — Tue, 11 Dec 2012 06:36:19 GMT

A TRUE IM should be 750 of each. I'll try to think of that !!

RE: The IM Lane

That Guy — Tue, 11 Dec 2012 05:54:27 GMT

The 2013 Checkoff Challenge includes the 800 IM :bliss: www.usms.org/.../tracking_sheet.pdf