Freestyle sprinting

RE: Freestyle sprinting

__steve__ — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 03:48:09 GMT

Found out the 19.23 above by N Brunelli was a USMS 25-29 record, until the next day when Bousquet went 18.67.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

aquageek — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:13:29 GMT

I was at this meet. A lot of the Team Elite guys from our club participated. It was a USMS meet and they are awesome swimmers and super nice as well. They all hung out with us and were very encouraging.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

BillS — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:59:39 GMT

I posted it right here YouTube- 19.23.WMV Wow, what a start...he got an incredible jump on the gun. The guys to his left (on the first 25, to his right on the back half) look to be no slouches, maybe 22ish? And yet the race was over at the breakout. Thanks for posting. Gives me a lot to think about for my start. I like how he lines his back foot up directly behind the front, think I will give that a try.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

__steve__ — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:30:02 GMT

Swimming a 26 second 50 is a whole new ball of wax.No kidding. At 22 seconds I start to really need air so I take a breath. By 24 seconds I need another because the first was mostly water so I take a long one (video shows I pause my stroke). Few seconds later I finally hit the hall.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

__steve__ — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 02:56:01 GMT

They also whistle very loudly

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:30:49 GMT

"Yesterday I spoke with Shaun Jordan (Shaun swam for the US in the '88 and '92 Olympics.) we were talking about the 50 free and he was telling me how Matt Biondi and Tom Jager taught him to build his 50 meter free race, that he needed to relax on the first 10 strokes and build into the wall. Rather than going all out from the start. This allowed him to swim much faster on the second 25." I wonder how many strokes those chaps take in a 50yd. free.? 22 would be my guess.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:28:11 GMT

My guess is that most people that break 22 seconds in the 50 yard free don't gulp in mother air in the first 25. On the back half, well why breathe? You only have 11 seconds left. Swimming a 26 second 50 is a whole new ball of wax.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:37:32 GMT

I am curious if any sprinters do 50 SCM or LCM without breathing. Yes and I think 50 LCM would be the easier of the two to do without breathing, considering the turn requires and exhale, while not doing a turn allows the swimmer to decide when to exhale. I don't have enough experience with LCM to actually say which is easier.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

__steve__ — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:25:37 GMT

Do you really accelerate or do you just pick up effort as you lose your dive/wall speed?Accelerating means you had a terrible breakout or missed the wall on the turn Steve, have you posted the footage anywhere?I posted it right here YouTube- 19.23.WMV

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 07:43:21 GMT

Do you really accelerate or do you just pick up effort as you lose your dive/wall speed?

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 05:16:02 GMT

That is interesting, to build speed over the first 10 meters makes a lot of sense. I have also noticed that if I start out by gradually accelerating I reach a much higher speed and if done efficiently, I can actually attain as fast of a time in the 25 with less energy. I think it has to do with gradually slipping into the friction of the water and turning the tide to flow with you through gradual acceleration as your stroke also comes into streamline and harmonizes with the water. As we know, water is a much thicker medium than air making the environment more interactive, so you really have to make an attempt to feel the water and become one with it. In other words, you are gathering the chi of the water into your own, lol. Or just go with the flow. A good drill is to start off from the wall very slow and gradually build throughout a twenty five. The key is to see how steady you can gradually build that acceleration, as in a very refined crescendo of speed.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Stevepowell — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 01:16:59 GMT

I was lucky enough to film Nick Bernelli close up a couple months back at a meet. Steve, have you posted the footage anywhere?

RE: Freestyle sprinting

__steve__ — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 01:02:48 GMT

I wonder how many strokes those chaps take in a 50yd. free.? 22 would be my guess. I was lucky enough to film Nick Bernelli close up a couple months back at a meet. I use the footage to study what it takes for chaps like that to do low 19's in a 50 SCY. It took him 12 strokes (including 1st stroke upon breakout) to the bulkhead, and 14 on the way back, and didn't breath once. He got a little off center from the turn which probably hurt him a 1/10th sec, but 24 strokes got him a 19.23 He was very psyched and obnoxious several minutes or more prior to the event but as soon as he approached the block he was very calm and relaxed. I am curious if any sprinters do 50 SCM or LCM without breathing.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

__steve__ — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:46:57 GMT

I still have 3 seconds to shed before I am worthy of sprinting advice, but on the topic of relaxation, if I am relaxed early in the first 25 it's easier to go without breathing all the way to several strokes after the turn. Breathing probably hurts my time about 0.4 sec/breath so I go without as much as possible. Would love to be able to sprint the entire 50 without breathing:). I did a moderate paced 50 once without, but it made my teeth and something else I wont disclose hurt near the finish.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Karl_S — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:44:05 GMT

Do most of the in-swimming-shape and experienced swimmers among you go all out for a whole 50 yards or is there some pacing? In other words are you going top speed the whole time? [] :badday: I saw this: "Yesterday I spoke with Shaun Jordan (Shaun swam for the US in the '88 and '92 Olympics.) we were talking about the 50 free and he was telling me how Matt Biondi and Tom Jager taught him to build his 50 meter free race, that he needed to relax on the first 10 strokes and build into the wall. Rather than going all out from the start. This allowed him to swim much faster on the second 25." in Ande's SFF tip#24 U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Ande's Swimming Tips: Swimming Faster Faster

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:19:28 GMT

Sorry, I think that link show Ian in the 100, but still very good video showing his form. Here is another one of the many out there. video.aol.com/.../3233582990

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:13:00 GMT

The threshold limit is about 40 secs for a well conditioned athlete to go all out, then the lactic starts to kick in. For most of us that is about 3 lengths in the pool or the first 300 of a 400 meter dash, after that you hit the wall, that is why you have to pace a little in the beginning of both of these events, so you can bring it on home. I am no real expert, but from what I understand even the best conditioned athletes can't break through that 40 sec barrier of all out speed. What they can do is perfect their form to increase speed with less effort as close to lactic threshold as possible without going in debt until the final meters of the race. Stroke form in swimming is where you can really make up the speed, just ask Popov. It always amazes me that the Olympic finalist in swimming generally got there by swimming faster and more efficiently with about 14-20% less wattage than the ones who didn't make the finals. A fifty is well under the threshold and most of us swim fifties all out during speed workouts with little difficulty. But also, maybe what is being implied by some as pacing is perhaps more of a concern with form rather than slapping the water as hard as you can. Moving your arms faster doesn't necessarily equate to a faster 50 free, especially if you are not catching the water. Take a look at Ian Thorpe if you want to see someone who can really combine form and speed, see the link. I don't think he is holding anything back, but he is cycling through a near or perfect stroke, at least for his physique. video.aol.com/.../170213568

RE: Freestyle sprinting

ande — Mon, 29 Mar 2010 04:54:53 GMT

Very well conditioned swimmers go pretty close to all out yet they manage to keep their 25 splits pretty close to each other like the winner had a 0.39 diff, 0.25 to 0.50 is ideal 0.50 to 0.75 is pretty good 0.75 to 1.00 is not so hot you might also need to multiply the splits proportionate to your speed 0.39/18.93 = X/30 Much of the 50 is about hitting your: start to breakout: dive, streamline, SDK, breakout & turn to break out: turn, push off, streamline, SDK & breakout. look how the final heats of the 2010 mens NCAA's split their 50's Event 4 Men 50 Yard Freestyle A - Final === 1 Schneider, Josh CINC 18.93P r:+0.70 9.27 9.66 0.39 diff 2 Adrian, Nathan CAL 19.02 r:+0.73 9.20 9.82 0.62 diff 3 Brown, Adam AUB 19.03 r:+0.75 9.33 9.70 0.37 diff 4 Feigen, Jimmy TEX 19.08 r:+0.71 9.27 9.81 0.54 diff 5 Louw, Gideon AUB 19.14 r:+0.75 9.39 9.75 0.36 diff 6 Daniels, Joshua CAL 19.41 r:+0.75 9.44 9.97 0.53 diff 7 Dunford, David STAN 19.47 r:+0.78 9.57 9.90 0.33 diff 8 Coville, Alex STAN 19.51 r:+0.70 9.39 10.12 0.73 diff === B - Final === 09 Moore, Graeme CAL 19.29 r:+0.72 9.24 10.05 10 Richards, Micha MINN 19.47 r:+0.66 9.40 10.07 11 Walters, Dave TEX 19.63 r:+0.74 9.55 10.08 12 Krug, Karl AUB 19.64 r:+0.73 9.58 10.06 13 Smith, Jordan ARIZ 19.67 r:+0.69 9.62 10.05 14 Forbes, Alexand UKY 19.76 r:+0.71 9.59 10.17 15 Grobbelaar, War UKY 19.78 r:+0.69 9.67 10.11 16 McGinnis, Eric UKY 19.85 r:+0.63 9.52 10.33 Do most of the in-swimming-shape and experienced swimmers among you go all out for a whole 50 yards or is there some pacing? In other words are you going top speed the whole time? The reason I'm asking is that right now I can do 25 yards from a standstill in 13 seconds, but my best 50 yard time from a standstill is 33 seconds. (I'm a horrible diver at this point, but once I get my stroke in order I'll start working on that). Anyhow, is it reasonable for me to shoot for a 26 second 50 by just improving my endurance and flip turns, or is it like comparing 50's and 100's where a 50 time will always be less than half a hundred. Thanks for your thoughts. I don't do a lot of sprinting, but once in a while give it a few shots just to see where I am. Unfortunately I'm unable to do a master's class because I work in shifts and would miss half of them, so I'm pretty much on my own trying to get better. :badday:

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:27:40 GMT

Phelp's at Ultraswim windmill, not Janet Evans windmill.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:12:06 GMT

I have been thinking about stillwater's comment about pacing. The windmill stroke takes more energy than regular freestyle. If you can race at 100% for an entire race, then you can do windmill the entire race. To date, I have only seen the windmill reserved for the final 10-15 yards of a race, which would imply reserving the hardest effort until the end.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

That Guy — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:14:14 GMT

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:29:34 GMT

How long can a human perform at 100%? 100% RPE (Rate of perceived effort)? or 100% Peak Velocity? or 100% of peak anaerobic capacity? Here. I think I have an answer for you. The rate of ATP recycling by the process of anaerobic glycolysis is about half the rate of the ATP-CP system. (...) Estimates are that a person's power output will decrease by approximately 35% after the first 5 sec of exercise when anaerobic glycolysis becomes the principal source of energy for ATP recycling (Hultman and Sjoholm 1986). If you fail to deliver max power for reaching peak speed very early in the event, you loose those 5-6 seconds. You just spoiled 'em. Because your ATP-CP system will empty itself anyway, and you won't be able to generate this level of torque later into your race. Your ability to sustain effort anaerobically is called your anaerobic capacity. It is also often called Lactate Tolerance. Human body, when carefully trained can operate at peak anaerobic capacity power for at least 30-40sec. For any event lasting around this duration, the goal isn't to try to delay fatigue by pacing yourself, but rather to try to delay fatigue by training to increase your anaerobic capacity, or lactate tolerance, whatever. Finally (once again) the rate at which the various metabolisms need to operate during a 50m makes it impossible for aerobic metabolism to contribute. Its only contribution in my opinion will be to help reducing the O2 Deficit. And that will occur after the event was swam. That is why some swimmers can book a full 50 LCM no breathing. Aerobic metabolism still contributes, but after the event is finished. About an event lasting between 20 and 30sec: "Training should focus on improving stroking power and the rate of anaerobic metabolism. Improving buffering capacity or the rate of aerobic metabolism is not important". (E.W. Maglischo, 2003). I haven't being keeping up on the latest in training theory WRT this issue, but last I heard there was some thought that lactic acid wasn't an inhibiting factor. What is the latest thinking along these lines? By your response I take it that it's back to lactic acid as inhibitor, but perhaps there are some new wrinkles as well. Thanks, LBJ I think it is wrong to assume that muscle lactic acid is the cause of muscle fatigue. First, lactic acid which is produced within the muscle cell rapidly gets converted to lactate when it enters the blood stream. Your body actually loves lactate. It finds a lot of useful things to do with it. One major thing is to turn it back to pyruvate where it could (at threshold speed) be metabolized in presence of O2 by entering inside mitochondria. That process takes place at threshold speed though, certainly not at anaerobic capacity speed. The problem is that parallel to the increase in blood lactate concentration is the increase of hydrogen ions (H+). Since you make it explicit in your question that you'd like to know what is the latest thinking... I'd say that the highest profile and most competent physiology experts do insist on the parallel changes that occur along with blood lactate accumulation. That still makes lactate monitoring somehow important. Fatigue do occur whilst lactate level is increasing. Very few actually venture in qualifying the role of blood lactate in regard to muscle fatigue. The whole issue is still under investigation. New theories are being tested. That probably explains the discrepancy that exists between some of these theories.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

__steve__ — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:07:14 GMT

The new-old thinking was that LA wasn't bad, but the associated drop in pH was bad, and that "lactate tolerance" was (among other things probably) your body becoming better at buffering the pH drop. Is NaHCO3 still used by sprinters? I remember cycling sprinters used sodium bicarb before an event long time ago.

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Former Member — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:40:57 GMT

If you like or know about physiology, the first 10-15sec of an effort is done on ATP/CP (very very rapid muscle fuel) whereas the remaining is done on sugar, which produces lactic acid as a by product which indirectly causes your body to slow down. Sprint training will improve your ability to maintain speed in presence of lactic acid. Solar - I haven't being keeping up on the latest in training theory WRT this issue, but last I heard there was some thought that lactic acid wasn't an inhibiting factor. What is the latest thinking along these lines? By your response I take it that it's back to lactic acid as inhibitor, but perhaps there are some new wrinkles as well. Thanks, LBJ

RE: Freestyle sprinting

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:21:44 GMT

I haven't being keeping up on the latest in training theory WRT this issue, but last I heard there was some thought that lactic acid wasn't an inhibiting factor. What is the latest thinking along these lines? By your response I take it that it's back to lactic acid as inhibitor, but perhaps there are some new wrinkles as well. Maybe there is something newer out there, but LA is not a direct inhibitor according to this: www.drmirkin.com/.../lactic_acid.html My understanding of this is: the old-old thinking was that LA was inherently bad news. The new-old thinking was that LA wasn't bad, but the associated drop in pH was bad, and that "lactate tolerance" was (among other things probably) your body becoming better at buffering the pH drop. The above link seems to suggest that it is potassium ion accumulation that is the problem. Anyway, back to the original question... I certainly sprint a 50 "all-out," or pretty darn close to it. Sometimes it takes a 25 before I feel I get my technique under control and I'm not flailing, but I am not consciously saving up and I don't die at the end. It is a little different in LCM, where the last 5-10m do hurt a little but still there is no conscious pacing involved. Again, maybe the first 1-2 strokes I concentrate a little on getting my technique under control so I'm not just spinning my wheels. Regardless of whether you think you should hold back a smidge on the first 25 or whatever, I hope everyone can agree on one thing: if you can do a 13 for a 25, then you ought to be able to go faster than 33 for a 50. That's too much of a drop-off. It is hard to tell from the OP whether this disparity is due to poor start/turn technique or lack of sprint/strength training.