Butterfly timing

RE: Butterfly timing

BillS — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 04:32:04 GMT

I swam the open swim today along with one of my swimmers who has been struggling with timing (he basically was doing both kicks before catching) and he gave the "zero-kick" fly a try and it was magic! He was wearing fins too but he had a nice flowing stroke totally unlike his usual stroke. He still has a pause out front but man what a difference! It will be interesting to see what it looks like when he tries it without fins, but it is already a huge improvement on what he used to do with fins so I'll keep my fingers crossed! Thanks for the suggestion Bill! I worked on this myself, along with trying to eliminate the pause and I do much better with a relatively passive kick (letting it flow out of the stroke). I'm looking forward to trying this with some more of my swimmers. You welcome Red60, I'm certainly getting a lot out of the thread too! Glad that worked for you, Lindsay. The fins give a nice big platform to push off of to set up the pull, and slow down an overkick, so they work well with the no kick drill. The feeling should translate pretty directly to the stroke without fins, and you can always go back and forth as necessary.

RE: Butterfly timing

kla4451 — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:11:39 GMT

Sweet video! Our coach says my knees bend too much...now seeing this video it hopefully will help my undulating! Thank you very much. kla4451

RE: Butterfly timing

fritznh — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:54:02 GMT

The only things I'd add to Ande's comments are that the bottom screen guy (BSG?) is using his hands to go back toward the surface and his hips are low. The first motion that his hands make is back towards the surface, not back towards his hips to produce propulsion. One good drill is to lie on a kickboard on your stomach balancing, then trace out the stroke pattern as you push the water back (with elbows high). If you start moving your head and body around all over the place, the kickboard will fly out from underneath. I've found this to be a good feedback mechanism. Though there should be some undulation, the stroke should be much flatter than what he's doing. If he keeps his hips higher on average and decreases the maximum and minimum motion, he'll move forward more easily. As mentioned, his legs are bent waaaay too much! That is the same as hitting the brakes, and it is probably due to his hips being too low. A good drill for this is to do the five+ kick fly, with fins. This is where you kick five or six times per pull, kicking enough to make sure you get your hips up where you need them to be. Then, on the fourth or fifth kick, do one big kick and throw your arms forward, trying to maintain forward motion/momentum as much as possible. This also helps timing. Good luck...

RE: Butterfly timing

ande — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:24:16 GMT

the guy in the bottom screen isn't as fast as the top the bottom screen guy is: 1) pausing his hands up front before starting his pull, I call it scooping, it's a total momentum stopper, his hands need to hit and go & 2) he's bending his knees about 45 degrees too much here's footage of what they should look like YouTube- 100 LCM Butterfly - World Record

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:19:53 GMT

I have been following this thread with interest. The video examples and discussion of same have been very helpful. I worked with a coach on my fly a year or so ago, and he encouraged me to bring my arms together out in front and drop them into the water, which I did, but I think I've been bringing them in too far, as sometimes they even touch in the middle. So I have a big "keyhole" thing going in my pull. Yesterday I worked on entering the water at my shoulders, and pulling straight back, which worked. But that kicking drill! I looked at it yesterday and thought, Oh, that looks like a good idea. I'll do that. Except I was totally unable to propel myself through the water. I had to scull/pull a teeny bit to make any progress. Now I have a lousy kick in general, but wow, that was humbling. Felt like an idiot. Any tips? Thanks, Lindsay, for the thread. Very helpful.

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:29:51 GMT

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:01:11 GMT

You see how much work (research) still needs to be done. I agree with your comment about fly/fins. Not bad, but could gain more results in avoiding them in favor of adjusted send offs intervals. It's a very good question that you asked. No I don't look up when not breathing. However though, I still give some head movement. In other words, my head is still moving up and down when not breathing. I do this to favor the recovery.

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:19:02 GMT

Last night's workout was a bit of a wash as far as careful experimentation. It was mostly 50s on short intervals. I was able to do the stroke portions as butterfly but I was wearing fins so even though I was consciously avoiding relying on the fins it doesn't really count. It was one of those nights were the coach wanted us to all go on the same interval but set the interval for the fast lanes. Lanes 1-4 all wore fins just to make the intervals. I'm somewhat ambivalent about this kind of workout - it was intense and demanding but I would rather do them on adjusted intervals with no fins which I prefer to reserve for either technique or race pace work. I didn't feel up to staying for the free swim afterward. I plan to go to the free swim tomorrow so I'll experiment more then. It's kind of funny that your goal time for 100kick is my goal time for 100 full stroke! The kid does seem to do a good job of illustrating the wave moving down the body, I don't think you could call that a soft hand entry though... On the looking forward part, do you do that on non-breathing strokes or just breathing strokes?

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:25:47 GMT

I had a bit of a breakthrough last night on the issue of eliminating the pause from the front of the stroke! I tend to have a pause out front myself when I slow the stroke down so I was experimenting with trying to reduce it, hopefully in a way I could explain it to my swimmers that have a big pause. The issue I found was how to get from that downhill/chest-pressed position to getting up for a breath. My theory is that the main purpose of the pause and the big sculling actions is to initiate getting back up to the surface for the subsequent breath. You can see it in the video that Alfonso takes his arms too deep and then angles his hands upward to start the rise and lifts his head, and does a big wide scull. Even just gliding will allow the buoyancy in your chest to lift your chest up. What I found was that if instead of working to lift the front end of the torso up I simply pressed downward with the hips instead I got from the downhill to an upward orientation, and that with that orientation even a relaxed pull easily brought me up enough to get a breath and recover my arms. This was the first time that I was able to start the pull immediately and not have any difficulty or have to put significant effort into getting up for the breath. After just a couple lengths of practice I was able to do a slow relaxed length and finish with my breathing hardly being elevated at all, it was just the same effort as a length of relaxed freestyle, except perhaps for the need to recover the arms quicker. Until I see it on video I won't know if it is some sort of bizarre abomination but it really felt like I could have done that stroke in workouts for distances longer than 25m or 50m without getting too exhausted to complete the sets. Time will tell I guess. The other thing I experimented with was varying speed by concentrating on increasing the tempo of the chest and hip presses rather than concentrating on more effort. At very least I can now swim without a pause or big scull at the front and can articulate how it feels to me to do it, with a little more practice and after checking video I can try to explain it to my lane mates that are having problems reducing their long pauses out front. It's funny how lots of advice that I was never able to really apply suddenly makes perfect sense once I actually get the knack of something! I think one of the blocks for me on this was the idea that I needed to keep my hips up was preventing me from really pressing the hips down to get the torso moving upward. That's enough for now, I'm already going to feel real silly if I see video of this and it's all wrong!

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:42:05 GMT

Hey Lyndsay, sorry to post this in your thread but that's something. THE NEXT MICHAEL PHELPS. 5yo - 25 Fly in 20.5 sec YouTube- 5 year old swimming the Butterfly fast Sorry - back to the discussion on timing. Noticed how the kid naturally gets it right?

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:52:30 GMT

It's great to have multiple ways to think about these things! Yes. It is particularly true with butterfly. Because believe it or not, like it or not, there's still a lot of research to be made about how to swim this stroke. I was looking at Maglischo's latest edition for his take on how the head should move. He is very clear: The head should remain still. It should not move up and down. I think he's wrong (or was wrong in 2003). Therefore it's very important to make our own opinions on these issues (propulsive aspect of the kicking upbeat, movement of the head, outward sculling upon hand entry etc...). I made my own opinion on the importance of head movement in developing and mastering this kicking drill which because my Fly Kicking (referred to my clip at numerous occasions already on this site). Yesterday night, I took it to a new level by lowering the 100m kick down to 1:33. During the whole execution, hands remain in the front, no sculling. So the whole undulation is led by the head. Her movement alone seems to be sufficient for dictating the downhill/uphill direction of the whole body, all that at very decent speed (for a 100m kick). ** edit ** As for Phelps head movement amplitude vs can he look where he's going to breathe? Hummmm..... Well, we can't see his eyes can we? Here. Tonight I got a short clip of a 50m fast kicking using my no-arm-drill. I think I did 39.something on that one, with a short dive since I was dry (no wup whatsoever)I made sure I was looking up before breathing. That doesn't mean my head is going up and down like crazy. My eyes can move up and it's enough to look at where I'm going to breathe. Also, I made sure I was going very hard on the upbeat. Sorry for the SDK, it sucks I know. Started working on it yesterday. YouTube- Butterfly Kick - NAD (No Arm Drill) Fast So now, I'm in a better position to answer one of your previous question. If I was Alphonso's coach, first he would learn this drill. That way, he'd learn to breathe without using his hands. As simple as that. He also learn to get clear propulsion from both kicks. Then he'd be thrown in endless sets of 100 as (25m 0-Arm; 25m L-Arm; 25m R-Arm; 25m Full Stroke). The emphasis would have to be put on the fact of synchronizing final push with end of second kick as well as eliminating the dead spot (both are related aren't they?). He'd do this during the 1-Arm execution at low intensity (no dead spot and synch push/2nd kick) then on the final 25 (it's just 25 after all) he'd learn to put all the pieces together (breathing low, moving the head, no dead spot but very progressive catch and finally synch push/kick). After few weeks of this, he would be thrown in full stroke sets on very slow interval and he'd be swimming a volume of butterfly he'd never swam before.

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:32:16 GMT

But I'll try to think about your trick tonight and see how good it feels. I'm not optimistic that it's going to be helpful for an experienced flier who already has a good stroke, I'm more hopeful that it will help those of us who never had good mechanics and have fallen into the rut of a long pause out front. Tonight I'll see if the feeling that I could do it for longer distances has any reality. It occurs to me that one benefit of eliminating the pause out front is that it shortens the stroke cycle so you have less time between breaths. Perhaps that partially explains why I was not at all out of breath after a 25. At the MSO swim camp in January the coach had us basically looking where you will breath, he had a different description, which I can't remember, but I think it was the same idea. I think my literal mindedness and talent for missing the point kicked in and perhaps I was doing this too much with the neck and not enough as a lead for the body. Looking closely at the Phelps Butterfly 01 video there is a definite head/neck movement, although it doesn't really look as though he is tilting his head as though looking forward as much as extending his neck down and then lifting it up with minimal tilt. Hmm, sitting upright at my desk here and tilting my head back to look at the ceiling I can feel a stretch and my chest starting to be pulled back once my head gets tilted back to a certain point. If I move my head back without tilting it I can feel that engagement somewhat earlier. In any case, tonight I will experiment with moving my head as a way to lead the undulation instead of as an independent movement and see how that feels. It's great to have multiple ways to think about these things!

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:26:15 GMT

What I found was that if instead of working to lift the front end of the torso up I simply pressed downward with the hips instead I got from the downhill to an upward orientation, and that with that orientation even a relaxed pull easily brought me up enough to get a breath and recover my arms. I'm very glad that you found your way to easier breathing/recovery whilst eliminating the need to rely on your hands to support you whilst being at the front. For me, I like to use another very simple trick, and that is how I coach as well. I just teach to look at where you plan to breathe, prior breathing. So that qualifies me as a "head-leads-the-undulation" coach. I know I know. I read at numerous occasions that the head should remain still during the whole undulation, to me, that makes no sense. Even Phelps, who is often quoted as keeping his head still and fix whilst swimming BF does indeed moves the head up and down. So that's my trick. Look at where you plan to breathe, prior breathing. But I'll try to think about your trick tonight and see how good it feels. That's enough for now, I'm already going to feel real silly if I see video of this and it's all wrong! Colleague, if I can issue one little advise, if you are to take the slow butterfly route to improve stroke mechanics, give yourself plenty of time before achieving some nice Form (video feed back). 1 thing that you may notice is how difficult to get the hips to surface (during the first kick) when you're swimming slow. You may not like yourself very much but after time, something nice (although slightly different than if you were swimming power fly) should come out of this process.

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:42:20 GMT

Solar, if you were Alfonso's coach what approach would you take? Huge question really. My approach to butterfly is so different to that you'd normally find, it's hard to reconcile the two. But if I was indeed his coach, I'd modify his drilling/swimming strategy in a way that he'd gradually bring him to eliminate the dead spot in the front. That alone could allow him to finish the pulling on time so that it would synch with the second kick. First thing I'd do is that for all sets meant to be swam at your best stroke (Alphonso would probably love doing them at BF), I'd make sure that the conditions under which these sets are performed allow for butterflyers to try them at butterfly. I know it may sound obvious, but you'd be surprise at how fast BF specialists are asked to swim during these sets. Often, when I swim with these guys (which occurs once every 2 weeks roughly), I mention to the 5 other swimmers in my lane that I want to do the set at BF. Backstroke specialists often tell me: all right then, go first. Are you crazy? Let the breaststrokers go first, I'll go last. Well Charles, butterfly is a fast stroke isn't it? No it's not. If you want to maintain good form and finish the set, this stroke (at least for me) is even slower than *** stroke. Back to the days I was squad coaching, every swimmer would often have to change lanes depending on the set. In other words, you could be in lane 6 (the fastest) for warming up, but if you're a *** stroke specialist you would move to lane 4 for the main set. That sounds trivial I know but there again, taking me as an example, I can cruise in lane 6 during a free style set, especially using a pull buoy, but I absolutely need to downgrade to lane 4 in order to find send off intervals that suit >1000m set done at my specialty.

RE: Butterfly timing

orca1946 — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:25:08 GMT

I think the knees are too bent & too early . The timing should be more balanced.

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:47:43 GMT

I would agree with the need for a wider entry. The hands coming together puts a ton of strain on the shoulders and will cause problems in the long run. BTW you need less shoulder flexibility when your entry is farther apart... ;-) Also, in looking at the video it looks like your swimmer has no flexibility in his back (no backward bending). He is going to need more core/ab strength and shoulder flexibility to compensate. He is currently bending his knees to compensate They could try a cat/camel stretch to begin to increase flexibility.

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:23:14 GMT

I have seen many swimmers with similar strokes patterns, mostly swimmers who didn't swim in their youth and learned butterfly as adults. With the swimmers in my club that I have tried to work with there seem to be a couple obstacles to correcting it. One is that they want a glide/rest in their stroke, either because they aspire to swim longer events or complete tougher sets than their combination of fitness and technique allow them to complete without a rest/glide phase, or because they seem to serialize stroke components that should occur in parallel, i.e. "kick, kick, pull" instead of the pulls and kicks happening concurrently. I think Bill's no-kick 25s might be a good approach, or possibly just one kick, for the couple guys I've got that can't seem to get away from the two kicks before the catch timing. I'll try that with them. I also find that a lot of these swimmers do a big out and in scull at the front of the stroke, I imagine this has its origins in the "keyhole" pull pattern, but it gets exaggerated into almost tracing the outline of a capital T, i.e. straight out and straight back in and then back. Alfonso does this. Allen, having looked at Phelp's stroke I understand the idea of a wide entry with the chest descending and the hands remaining near the surface, but no one I know personally has the shoulder flexibility to do that, I certainly don't. I think you're right that Alfonso would benefit from eliminating the down and up and most of the out and in with his hands and just catch and pull. This changes the timing of the stroke so much that a lot of swimmers struggle with it and often end up rejecting this change as it feels all wrong to them compared to what they are used to. I'm still working on this myself. I will try Bill's full stop drill next time I'm in the pool, I can't entirely visualize it at the moment. Solar, yes that's the Alfonso and Simon from ACC, and yes I'm based out of Moncton but visit Montreal a few times a year. Simon has a 2:18.94 SCM 200 and a 1:01.50 SCM 100 so I figured he must be doing something right! I am sure he was loafing it in the video so that may have affected his stroke. Solar, if you were Alfonso's coach what approach would you take? Thanks for your suggestions Bill and Allen, more comments welcome!

RE: Butterfly timing

Allen Stark — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:13:33 GMT

I just was at a clinic by Dennis Baker and several participants had a similar problem to Alphonso's.He brings his hands too close together on the recovery,then he drops them too deep and brings them back up before the recovery.If his entry was shoulder wide and he kept his hands at the surface until beginning the pull his timing would be better.

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:51:52 GMT

Now that I'm less in shock(!), and to get the discussion going, for sure Alphonso is way too late on catch. This is probably due to the fact that this hands seek forward in front (dead spot). During this, the kicking cycles continues. Therefore he ends up giving a second kick that is too early. Both forces (pulling push and second kick) can not sum up. Very very bad timing indeed. Like most, Alphonso rarely practices longer distances in practice. And when he does some fly, it is often this strange fly where the swimmer leave the hand in the front, perform few kicks then a pull then arms in the front again (long dead spot) kicks some more than a pull etc. Simon, well Simon is a former varsity national level swimmer. He's worth 1:05 on both 100m BF and 100m IM. He can afford committing to this bad practice (this strange butterfly execution). The hundreds of thousands meters done at BF full stroke over his career (which began at a very early age) allows him to execute very decent butterfly even if he doesn't practice it on a regular basis.

RE: Butterfly timing

Former Member — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:40:03 GMT

Damn Lyndsay, are we neighbors or what? Damn, this Alphonso, could it be the same Alphonso with whom I sometimes train? DAMN, the read head guy, is it Simon? You picked a fast one there (1:05 in Montreal's Cup 2009, with no preparation whatsoever). Too bad, you missed the best fly swimmer this team has seen so far. Pablo can beat Simon (hope Simon won't read this though, hell he's going to be mad) especially over 200. I think he already delivered a sub 2:30 performance over 200SCM in 2009 (age 45). Over 100, he's probably going to do 1:02, maybe even 1:01.something in April. Hey mate, let's schedule for a beer some day to solve all of our butterfly issues in one shot! -- edit -- I understand now. You're based in Moncton and was visiting our outdoor pool installations last year, where you could meet few members of ACC Masters since they train in this pool throughout the summer. Please, drop me an email next time you're scheduled for a trip here. In the mean time, will you be in Quebec City in April for Prov Championship?

RE: Butterfly timing

BillS — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:02:15 GMT

My fly looks a lot like that of swimmer 2. Two drills have helped me with the timing issues: 1. "No kick" 25s. Swim a 25 concentrating on not kicking at all. The body naturally undulates anyway, and seeks its own more naturally correct timing. This also helps to cure the overkicking. Press the chest and keep the hips up. 2. "Full stop" drill. Float prone with arms overhead, then initiate one stroke by pressing down with the chest, kick, pull, and recover arms to overhead prone float position. Float, regroup, think, and take another stroke. Repeat for a length. I like to follow up with a length or 2 of whole stroke between 25s of drill. YMMV.