How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:29:06 GMT

What I would like to know is how to swim this *perfect" or high quality fly with six others in a lane. I really can't swim perfect fly solo, so just curious as to how to go about it with additional obstacles. And often our coaches will have us start the set over if stroke is broken, so that's not always an option. I am not sure that fly suffers *that* much more than the 3 other strokes from choppy conditions, given that most basic elements of the technique are sorted out. It's possible to adapt to these conditions to a large extent. If there's one area where flyers are vulnerable to choppy conditions (no matter the level), I think it's in the area of breathing. Rapidly inhaling a good quantity of water may trigger a big spasm which generally means that you're not able to inhale for few stroke cycles. Often, choppy conditions implies that there are a certain number of swimmers in your lane. They all represent good opportunity to draft. So, I usually end up being able to book tougher fly sets in choppy conditions given that I can draft compared to when I'm alone or first in my lane. But I'm a 200 specialist though. I almost never do some 25 all out efforts etc... I can hold 1:30 on 2min whilst drafting no matter how choppy it is. Alone, it's more around 1:40 (at this point in the season).

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:49:05 GMT

With this thread in mind, I paid some attention to exactly how it is that I sight for the oncoming swimmers while I'm swimming fly. Before paying attention, I would have assumed that I caught quick glimpses while breathing. But actually it's while I'm underwater that I get the best preview of whether I can take the next stroke cleanly. (Maybe this tells me something about my form... I probably shouldn't be looking that far forward.)

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 14:49:53 GMT

That's it. "Jazz Hands" (I gotta say, probably the best name out here) got it right. Since I don't work out with a team I usually find a lane to myself and then I can swim fly. Adjusting the stroke to oncoming traffic just screws up your form and rhythm. What's the point? If you don't have a lane, don't swim fly. As to the aggressive/confident swimmers who are willing to hit people to get their space, I understand the impulse, but isn't this something we learn to grow out of, say, after we are 12 years old? I always work out with a team. Adjusting stroke to oncoming traffic at practices gives me a huge advantage during races when I need to adjust my stoke and tempo to the race situation. AND, come meet time, I actually have a whole lane to myself. As I trained in waves and huge turbulence, swimming fly in my own lane at a meet is smooth sailing - and much easier. As for aggression, I had 0 aggression at age 12. Now I've grown into it. BTW, I've had hardly any hand smacking incidents (none really that I can recall) during these crazy fly sets. I smacked the wall lane once and really scraped up my hand on the concrete. Now here's a real challenge - swim fly with a bunch of aggressive kids in a wall lane with the wall being a large concrete slab. Expect some blood.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 14:07:03 GMT

Never ever swim fly when anyone else is going the other way. Just don't. Coaches are extremely dumb about designing workouts around this principle. That's it. "Jazz Hands" (I gotta say, probably the best name out here) got it right. Since I don't work out with a team I usually find a lane to myself and then I can swim fly. Adjusting the stroke to oncoming traffic just screws up your form and rhythm. What's the point? If you don't have a lane, don't swim fly. As to the aggressive/confident swimmers who are willing to hit people to get their space, I understand the impulse, but isn't this something we learn to grow out of, say, after we are 12 years old?

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 13:36:43 GMT

When our coach does a fly set, our lane usually does something like 12 x 25m on 35 secs. With 4 or 5 in the lane it can work with the best guys leading and SDKing under the last swimmers when starting the next 25m. Nobody ends up swimming fly against on-coming flyers. Squeeze the interval if you want something tougher (or do more).

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:48:02 GMT

I wasn't referring to just masters. What you have probably gathered by now (probably even before this post) is that you can't do a "perfect" fly with 6 in a lane in short course unless your coach approves of pauses and extra kicks, which shouldn't happen multiple times per lap in a race. I still have yet to figure out perfect fly even with no one in my lane. :)

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:59:16 GMT

I try to do fly when I have an opportunity to do it without collision, but focus on quality when when I do. You don't have to do gobs of fly to be decent at it as long as you have a good technique. I train almost exclusively freestyle but can do a passable 100 or 200 fly because I swam it a lot as a chlld and have some residual technique- as long as you're not learning it I really think you can minimize swimming it in practice. :2cents: I don't think anyone here is questioning quantity of fly for masters. I myself swim it once a week. What I would like to know is how to swim this *perfect" or high quality fly with six others in a lane. I really can't swim perfect fly solo, so just curious as to how to go about it with additional obstacles. And often our coaches will have us start the set over if stroke is broken, so that's not always an option.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:17:29 GMT

I do a one-arm stroke all the time to avoid hitting lane mates. I know this is something that would have elicited a bark from the coach in my younger days. Maybe that's why I enjoy doing it so much now! And I agree with Chris, I don't find myself wanting to take a one arm stroke in a race. If I'm not barked at I noodle.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:09:39 GMT

Do one-arm fly when necessary, but it shouldn't be too often because it is easier than two-arm fly. I disagree with the poster who said it is a hard habit to break in a race, I've never had the slightest bit of trouble with this. (One-handed turns, on the other hand...!) I tried to be polite swimming fly with 6 aggressive swimmers in my lane. Unfortunately, I ended up swimming one arm fly for most of the sets. Instead, I adopted the aggressive style and it works well for us flyers as a group. If someone could explain to me how I need to swim friendly, perfect stroke fly, I'd love to learn. When executing a less aggressive stoke my coaches complained that I cut my stroke short, my kick was too weak, my turn over was too slow (I was pausing too long after hand entry), and my head was too high during the breath (I was attempting to sight for the flyers coming the other way.) Plus, my heart rate really drops when I switch to one arm and that kind of training does NOT help me during my 200 fly races. Many thanks! The only time I swim with less experienced swimmers (like at masters meet warm ups), I pretty much avoid full stroke fly completely until the sprint lane is open.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 08:34:09 GMT

"Jazz Hands" (I gotta say, probably the best name out here)... Thanks!

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Speedo — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 07:52:07 GMT

I still have yet to figure out perfect fly even with no one in my lane. :) That's overly modest :)

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Speedo — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 07:14:56 GMT

I don't think anyone here is questioning quantity of fly for masters. I myself swim it once a week. What I would like to know is how to swim this *perfect" or high quality fly with six others in a lane. I really can't swim perfect fly solo, so just curious as to how to go about it with additional obstacles. And often our coaches will have us start the set over if stroke is broken, so that's not always an option. I wasn't referring to just masters. What you have probably gathered by now (probably even before this post) is that you can't do a "perfect" fly with 6 in a lane in short course unless your coach approves of pauses and extra kicks, which shouldn't happen multiple times per lap in a race.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Speedo — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 05:28:50 GMT

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

knelson — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 05:10:59 GMT

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:16:30 GMT

Swimming aggressively is rude and potentially causes injury. Avoiding fly when anyone else is in your lane is just looking for an excuse not to swim fly. We're masters: if you don't want to swim fly, don't. The key, as others have stated, is looking ahead and anticipating. With even a little experience there should be very few surprises. An extra kick to avoid a hit shouldn't mess up your timing (if it does, think of it as a drill to help improve your timing). Do one-arm fly when necessary, but it shouldn't be too often because it is easier than two-arm fly. I disagree with the poster who said it is a hard habit to break in a race, I've never had the slightest bit of trouble with this. (One-handed turns, on the other hand...!)

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:33:50 GMT

The best solution is to designate a lane exclusively for fly swimmers :D

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:13:49 GMT

Never ever swim fly when anyone else is going the other way. Just don't. Coaches are extremely dumb about designing workouts around this principle. Even better. Don't swim fly at all.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:46:12 GMT

I always feel awful about this. For me? It's more a bunch of mixed feeling, ranging from pure aggression to feeling terribly sorry. Like in the case of this young lady, I smacked her on the wrist, I could feel it. I stop and say I'm sorry. Then get back on the set. Felt sorry for a while then I almost hit the boyfriend in the face. He was waiting for me at the wall making sure I could turn. I said what the hell are you doing there dude (huge rush of testosterone/adrenalin)? He said you injured my girlfriend and you didn't do anything about it. I said well I stopped and said I was sorry? That's all I could do. He said you're disrespectful of others etc blablabla. Then trust me I was no longer feeling sorry. I said get your ass out of my way other wise next time I'm going to smack YOU! (made me loose my interval big time, I was in fast lane after all). Her girlfriend was swimming in the other lane for God's sake :confused: Then the lifeguard stopped me. He said with a smile, let's pretend that I'm telling you not to do this anymore. I know you didn't do anything wrong, but I'm just trying to act as a buffer here and I don't want this hysteric young girl to make up story that's bigger than life. Ever since this happened, now I try to make it clear with myself. I smack someone from another lane, I stop and say I'm sorry but that's all. And I make some efforts NOT to feel bad about it.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:55:02 GMT

* Maintain lane awareness of who else is in the lane, what stroke they are doing, where they are. * I usually just plan ahead and take a few extra kicks underwater when another swimmer passes by going the other direction. * I cheat towards the middle of the lane to avoid hitting the lane ropes. My arm recovery is too close to the water surface to swim fly very close to the ropes. * Pass other swimmers doing a fly set at the wall, not mid-pool. Space swimmers out a little more if people vary too much in speed during the set. * Don't slow a set even more by apologizing when it happens. Save that for between repeats.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:31:40 GMT

Never ever swim fly when anyone else is going the other way. Just don't. Coaches are extremely dumb about designing workouts around this principle.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

ande — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:34:55 GMT

+ wait for your lane to be clear & swim a fast 25 + pass them while you're SDKing + just as someone is approaching you break stroke and do a 1 arm pull or dive SDK & surface once you are past them OR just barrell down the lane full blast, make a FIST & SMACK them HARD, thus teaching them not to swim in your lane or beside your lane when you're swimming fly Lately I've not been making friends. I am hitting people during fly. Sometimes it is from another lane since I recover my right arm over the lane line, and sometimes it is a lane mate. I have a 76" reach so I am roughly as wide as a lane. I try to look and f I see someone I can sometimes do an alligator arm recovery, but this does not always work. People come up fast and you can't always get out of the way. Is there a trick to this, or is hitting part of the deal? Sometimes I'll lead so I can at least do a 25 without an issue, but anything over a 25 and I am now paranoid.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

swimmj — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:48:17 GMT

I use extra kicks with arms in streamline when needed - usually a long SDK will let 2 to 3 folks pass. Also, if you have 2 lanes the same speed, you can do a fly-snake - go down in lane 1, under the laneline and into lane 2 to swim back. If you can pull everyone out of the pool, you can snake through 8 lanes for a 200 fly with no collisions - you swim down the middle of the lane. Fastest swimmers go first - our age group team will do 5 x 200 fly snake at least a couple of times a month. You can have them drill some, swim some, extra. It's a great way to do fly without risking collisions. --mj

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:23:36 GMT

If you hit the people in the next lane, wouldn't you also hit the lane line yourself? In any case care should be taken. The other day a woman told me her toe was broken by another swimmer. It was not even fly (breaststroke if I remember correctly).

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

Former Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:58:44 GMT

Oh gees, I can relate to this... Last time I injured a young lady, she wasn't even in my lane neither. I always feel awful about this. I am a bigger swimmer, almost 6'6" tall and 230 lbs (slimming down thanks to a low salt diet). I am not sure what my wingspan is, but I always dread hitting people, especially someone in the lane next to you. The worst is when I am wearing paddles. The paddles seem sharp. Anyway, as for fly, when I know I am nearing someone, I will guage where they are and either glide a little further to get passed them, or take a stroke earlier, or do a 1-arm fly stroke to avoid a collision. Our lanes are small at the local Y. The other Y has wider lanes, but I tend to only swim there for events. As for hitting people, it's tough. I feel so awful when I hit some frail women half my size in the lane next to me. She's just trying to get through set like the rest of us, and here I am being a big goon causing her pain.

RE: How do you keep from hitting people in fly?!?!?!

rtodd — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:14:55 GMT

I guess you just need to really keep an eye out. I try the tricks like a later breakout to get past. The trick for me on fly is seeing it coming. I swim fly with very fast, very aggressive people in very narrow lanes. Have good, multiple SDKs off the walls and swim with aggression to mark your space. We have surprisingly few smack incidents even with upwards of 6 flyers in a SCY lane. I would never recommend breaking stroke to pass. It's a bad habit to break and it won't help you come race time. This aggression, er, I call it confidence, will keep people who have no business being in your lane out of your lane. I'm not sure about this. The guys in my lane and one over certainly deserve to be there and deserve respect, at least that's what the Olympic ring tatoo tells me. On a hard sprint, just ignoring it can lead to a broken hand or torn shoulder. I hit on a fast interval not too long ago and I thought I shattered this other guys hand. It was such a hard it we both came to a complete stop. He was totally cool about it, so it made me think it was just part of the business, but it bothered me. I think swimmer avoidance skills are the sign of a good swimmer no? I kinda pride myself on being able to not touch anyone on any of the other strokes, but fly has me stumped.