Flip turns are still killing me

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

philoswimmer — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:24:59 GMT

That is what I figured. But why is it that if I sit here and take a deep breath I can only exhale for a second but while swimming, or even just bobbing under water, I can create such a prolonged long stream of bubbles? Really? I can't blow all my air out in a second, even if I try... it especially takes a while to blow out the last bits.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:57:32 GMT

When there is literally no more air for you to exhale. Try to blow more air out and you can't because there is none. It's not a good state to be in - if you are underwater then you will have to fight the reflex to inhale. I get in this state sometimes when I take too many SDK's, go too deep on a pushoff after a back-to-*** flip turn, cough in the middle of a flip turn, that sort of thing. It's definitely not the goal. It hurts. That is what I figured. But why is it that if I sit here and take a deep breath I can only exhale for a second but while swimming, or even just bobbing under water, I can create such a prolonged long stream of bubbles?

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:32:35 GMT

Wow, more than a year later I realize that all of you were right. One day recently I decided to focus on really blowing out as much air as possible and was amazed at how much more I had - like I could create a Jaccuzzi under me which made me think - how do you know when you have fully exhaled (assuming that is the goal)? I also have since found I have high blood pressure which is now mostly under control. That is mostly good news because I had some health scares but passed a lot of other tests for what could have been much worse. I don't know if the breathing was more cause and effect of tension while swimming, but the exhaling along with working towards a high elbow and proper hand entry has me now feeling so much more comfortable in the water. I can now do longer sets with bilateral breathing which has really helped balance out my stroke. Oh the air, it feels so good!

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

That Guy — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:48:53 GMT

how do you know when you have fully exhaled (assuming that is the goal)? When there is literally no more air for you to exhale. Try to blow more air out and you can't because there is none. It's not a good state to be in - if you are underwater then you will have to fight the reflex to inhale. I get in this state sometimes when I take too many SDK's, go too deep on a pushoff after a back-to-*** flip turn, cough in the middle of a flip turn, that sort of thing. It's definitely not the goal. It hurts.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

bowyer954 — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:46:17 GMT

Herb, I can easily swim a 2:12 200 fs while doing grap turns (I do this because I think I need the air). For the last two weeks I have moved my 200's to 2:40's while concentrating on arm movement, exhaling and flip turns. I am two weeks into it and find that the turns are becoming easier (somewhat) and my breathing, in particular the exhaling is starting to work. I think going slower and "retaining" your body may be of some benefit--hope this helps.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:38:32 GMT

My personal experience with running out of air on flip turns was that I was blowing out too much during the flip and while pushing off, when I minimized the exhale during the turn to just enough to keep water out of my nose it greatly reduced the need for a quick breath. And if you've got a good quick flip it doesn't take much of an exhale. The duration under water really shouldn't be a big factor if you don't exhale until just before you breath. Is it possible that you are breathing out continuously instead of in a burst? That will really reduce the time you can go without breathing. I think continuously blowing out air during the tumble and push off was in fact just what I was doing. I can't even say for sure because after reading this it seemed real easy to change it - but that is what felt natural. I will see if your new technique works for me after more study.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:42:30 GMT

Now I am freaked out. I thought I had a swimming problem, but it could just be a symptom for what is really killing me!?? Did those moments randomly occur? I can pretty much predict exactly when I will be struggling. When I was a freshman in college (1964) I was tested for max O2 uptake (the definitive test for cardiovascular fitness) and posted the highest score ever achieved. Peter Snell had just broken the WR for the mile and it was his Max O2 uptake record that I beat. Mine was a short lived record because they soon stated testing world class cross country skiers, who destroyed my record. But that didn't keep from going through life figuring I was some kind of Cardio-God. The fact that I would develop some wiring malfunction in my heart was not on my radar. I did not believe the doctors when they came up with their diagnosis. But life can be tricky business. Reality is what it is. I hope that you are just not breathing correctly when you swim. But I also hope that you will get a thorough physical.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:00:01 GMT

It does seem though that during the flip turn is the one place where I would be forced to fully exhale due to the duration under water? My personal experience with running out of air on flip turns was that I was blowing out too much during the flip and while pushing off, when I minimized the exhale during the turn to just enough to keep water out of my nose it greatly reduced the need for a quick breath. And if you've got a good quick flip it doesn't take much of an exhale. The duration under water really shouldn't be a big factor if you don't exhale until just before you breath. Is it possible that you are breathing out continuously instead of in a burst? That will really reduce the time you can go without breathing.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

orca1946 — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 05:42:45 GMT

Do you go to the gym to increase cardio ? This will help a lot. Long workouts out of the pool will aid - running , biking .

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:46:58 GMT

Bingo. I had the same issue when I started back swimming 18 months ago. I do some, not a TON, hypoxic stuff. Things like 4-3-2-1-0 (or just down to 1) breathes for 50's on an moderate interval. No breather 25's....moderate, fast, underwater, kick underwater with fins, etc. Another good one is Tennessee Tumblers.....go underwater at the flags, flip turn underwater, come back up at flags. Do 200-500's like that at a moderate or faster pace. I also do some pulling where I breathe every 3,5,7, or 9 for certain distances. All this should help. I have been doing some 25 dolphin kicks underwater. And in 25s and 50s I seem to be fine with limited breaths. But I am giving myself a lot of rest between these sprints. Hopefully this stuff is helping me a little. Anything longer and I would have trouble but maybe starting with just a 200 breathing every 3rd stroke. Or maybe just even trying not to breath out of the turn - although that would be frustrating because I could probably make 5 100s in this manner instead of 20. As for the other questions on my health. Yeah, if you saw me you might notice I have a little bit of a weight problem. The cumulative effect of flipturns is probably directly related to the cumulative effect that years of partying has done to my body. But I feel like I am in decent shape. I'm trying to turn my life around but still drink too much beer and don't have a great diet. I did a couple triathlons (not very well) that led me to masters as I realized swimming was my true love. Like one poster eloquently put "its like recapturing a part of myself that I had forgot about". I'm completely at home in the water (outside of those couple of seconds coming off each wall).

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:07:35 GMT

Health issues aside, are you exhaling air between breaths or when you turn your head to breathe? I've realized from reading this forum and a few books that I actually know absolutely nothing about the fundamental techniques of swimming. Everything I do is from what I learned as a kid and from what little I can remember I think I could pretty much breath in any pattern I wanted. The strokes came back like riding a bike. The kicking and conditioning, not so much. But maybe I got by in age group with flaws, or else I picked up new bad habits without realizing it. Sounds like I need to go back to the very beginning and learn how to blow bubbles. It does seem though that during the flip turn is the one place where I would be forced to fully exhale due to the duration under water?

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:54:40 GMT

I hate to sound alarmist, but how's your ticker? One of my first clues that I had a heart problem (atrial fib) was when I experienced continual "out of breath" moments during swim workouts. That was over 13 years ago, I was 49 at the time. A bit of a life changing experience but certainly manageable. Now I am freaked out. I thought I had a swimming problem, but it could just be a symptom for what is really killing me!?? Did those moments randomly occur? I can pretty much predict exactly when I will be struggling.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:47:35 GMT

There are two possibilities that have been covered here: (1) health - are you overweight, smoke or have heart issues? A doctor can help if any of these are a factor. (2) Breathing - the need to exhale cannot be stressed too much. And the term that is well used for exhaling while swimming is to "explode" your breath while your face is still in the water. It is a good drill, creating a habit of exhaling BEFORE turning your head to breathe. Many swimmers are so intent on tuning their stroke or making adjustments while swimming that they forget to breathe. Sounds odd, but once you are focused on the phenomenon, you will understand. Bearing down to do one last hard swim, or finish a fast interval will sometimes delay or even suspend the timing of your breathing.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:29:22 GMT

The need to exhale completely is a great comment. The efficient transfer of air start with a full exhalation. Runners and swimmers breathe in too frequently while not exhaling fully. It's not as easy as it sounds. Start there and see what happens. I have to definitely agree with both of these posts! I would also look into the health issues that may be causing you this stuff, and if you are clear to go I would suggest the full exhale but also work some hypoxic or just run your sets on a 3 - 5 breath rest instead of being on an interval...change the focus a little bit.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:06:28 GMT

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:07:57 GMT

I'm guessing that you are not comfortable in the water and are tensed up when you swim? The muscles that aren't currently busy helping you swim should be relaxed. I agree with previous posts about doing a full exhale. My coach encourages us to do bobs between intervals to make sure that we are making full exhales instead of panting. Check your pulse before and immediately after a set. See how long it takes to get your heartrate down below 120 and then below 100. Physical checkup is something to consider.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:36:02 GMT

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:45:22 GMT

I am in complete agreement with everyone here regarding full exhalation prior to taking a breath. I would experience the same problem you have-- continually becoming out of breath-- even after doing 1.5-hour workouts 5 days a week for over a year and a half. In other words, the problem is NOT lack of conditioning! Trust me, I feel your frustration! I am one of those swimmers who holds my breath for a moment prior to exhaling, and would exhale out of my nose only. I recently realized (after doing a little searching on this forum) that even though I thought I was exhaling fully, I actually was not. I am now trying to exhale earlier, and more forcefully, from my mouth. This has helped tremendously with that out-of-breath feeling. The epiphany for me was that one day I noticed a little spurt of water as I turned to the side to take a breath of air-- this was an "Aha!" moment, since the thread I had read recommended this as one of the signs a coach could use to tell if a swimmer was not exhaling fully prior to taking a breath. Again, I had convinced myself that I was exhaling fully, but did not realize that I wasn't until last week! Now that I am practicing a more full exhale prior to turning to breathe, I feel much stronger in the water. Good luck!

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 09:26:44 GMT

Yeah, flip turns have been killing me too. I'm finally "hiking downhill" in getting used to them, though. Back last summer I was continually reminding myself I needed to flip instead of do open turns off every well. Meanwhile, I gradually did more and more flipturns last fall yet my swimming times suddenly came to this absolutely horrible crawl in my quest to lower them. Somewhere I had forgotten how much of a priority I had made flipturns and I just kept asking myself, "Why the downturn?" Heh. Anyway, a couple weeks ago, I was swimming when I realized that flipturns are basically second nature to me now. I don't even think, "Okay, man, do a flipturn next, tough it out, don't do a weenie open turn!" when approaching a wall anymore. And since last month my times returned to a previous rate of improvement, I guess my body's finally worn off the shock of flipturns. I agree with everyone else about the necessity of breathing correctly. I'm actually working on that right now myself. One thing I've noticed when I'm kickboarding is that I seem to kick faster when I'm consciously controlling my breathing with long, deep inhales, keeping it in for as long as I can, and then exhaling long. Someone told me it helps to breathe as much as possible so air gets to my legs which burn up the most oxygen, but I took that to mean I breathe in and out like a winded rhinoceros, no control at all. It's still just kickboarding (to say nothing of kicking when actually swimming), but it was a nice little epiphany for me about the importance of how you breathe. My new big priority is kicking. My coach remarked I need to kick much faster, to my desperate protests that I thought I was already kicking pretty fast. He said, "Not from up here, it doesn't look like that!" So, yeah, I can finally do flipturns but now I've got to get the whole flutter kicking part down pat, in addition to SDKing off every wall. Sometimes I find I'm able to hold pace with some of my teammates who have been swimming for years, but as soon as we get to the wall and turn, they zoom ahead. Breathing will obviously be crucial.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

smontanaro — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 08:21:26 GMT

Do you do any other cardiovascular work? Last summer I wound up taking most of July and all of August off from the pool. I was riding a couple hours a day to and from work though. When I got back in the pool in September I had little or no problem hopping into a lane with intervals similar to what I was doing last spring. Skip

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

pwolf66 — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 07:54:45 GMT

Health issues aside, are you exhaling air between breaths or when you turn your head to breathe?

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 07:13:24 GMT

The alternative I imagine is some kind of hypoxic training that is going to make me miserable. But I'm willing to do what I've gotta do at this point. Bingo. I had the same issue when I started back swimming 18 months ago. I do some, not a TON, hypoxic stuff. Things like 4-3-2-1-0 (or just down to 1) breathes for 50's on an moderate interval. No breather 25's....moderate, fast, underwater, kick underwater with fins, etc. Another good one is Tennessee Tumblers.....go underwater at the flags, flip turn underwater, come back up at flags. Do 200-500's like that at a moderate or faster pace. I also do some pulling where I breathe every 3,5,7, or 9 for certain distances. All this should help.

RE: Flip turns are still killing me

__steve__ — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:52:20 GMT

Health issues aside, are you exhaling air between breaths or when you turn your head to breathe? All of the exhalation should be done before the mouth surfaces is your main point? I have the same problem of being killed by turns - it's mostly conditioning though, but one thing that helped me was avoiding blowing out the nose on the turn.