OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:42:56 GMT

and one thing I've found useful is to concentrate a wee bit more on the final part of the stroke underwater--the push phase. +1 Cause when you loose it, it's the beginning of the end. Maintaining DPS (Form) is mostly conditioned by the efficiency of this important pulling phase.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:13:04 GMT

Is this mentality towards training wrong? No absolutely not. This mentality allows for breakthrough workouts to occur. Sometimes, in order to preserve Form during these you have to sacrifice a little bit on distance per stroke and you're fine. For instance, in case of a tough Fly workout, I would begin the set on a 11-12 stroke count at higher rate, knowing that I'll be able to maintain the Form from beginning to end. If I was to start it on 9-10 strokes per 25m like I can do, then I may loose it somewhere during the set and the Form can seriously degrade. In other words, stroke count strategy is like betting on a horse, or choosing the appropriate golf stick. My ability to successfully complete a tough set without seeing the Form degrading too much highly depends on which horse I bet prior beginning the set. At least that's how it works for me. In a free style set, a tough one, 16strokes for me is the key, although I could begin any free style set on a 14-15stroke count. The later strategy is undoubtedly a recipe for form failure later into the set.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:00:33 GMT

I'd say as your fatigue increases try to increase your DPS I respectfully disagree. I suggest to increase your stroke count and decrease your DPS. Kind of like changing gears on a bike when you go uphill. With a shorter stroke you can focus on the money spot of the pull and maintain form.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:23:44 GMT

This is a question/problem for all of my swimmers (age group and master's)!! I have to say that as a coach, I give them sets that I know will push them mentally (maintaining technique) and physically (pushing the limits of their overall swimming). However, it's almost a catch 22...if you don't maintain your technique and overall stroke efficiency then you will not make the interval or you will not hit the goal times... For me, I would like to see the swimmers hit their technique and miss the interval by :02 or so instead of throwing the technique and just making it on-time. Muscle memory is huge and if you start to get sloppy in your stroke you start to lose that precious entity. At least that is my opinion...

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:46:45 GMT

Just at varsity level, I've often seen 200 specialists being thrown in 1500 butterfly time trial. Phelps would probably do under 18min on this sort of test, Highly imprecise, but on the 100 fly to 200 fly his pace drops off 12% per 100 while on the 100 free to 200 free his pace drops off 8%. However some of that can be attributed to the start, so the real numbers are more like 4.9% and 9.1%. If you use those numbers and extrapilate out to the 1500 free (assume a 5% drop off every time the distance doubles) then Phelps is at 14:55 in the 1500. I think that is about right. Using the same math but with 9.1% you get a 18:07 in the 1500 fly...about what you predicted.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Karen Duggan — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:58:30 GMT

Hi Steve- I seem to remember a French anchor leg from Beijing who literally stopped moving his arms forward efficiently and was actually moving side to side the last 10m of his 100 free! The aerial view of the race was phenomenal! A certain Jason Lezak's form remained strong.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

__steve__ — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:51:49 GMT

I haven't seen footage of pros falling apart at the end of their race. They're in control Must take alot of work to get like that

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Karen Duggan — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:50:54 GMT

We learn at WCM to keep good form (as long as possible), and to try to keep the stroke counts within 2 of your optimum number. Example: If your stroke count is 14 per lap (free) and you're doing a sprint set, it should ideally stay at 14, but 16 is the highest number it should probably be. Our sets are designed, by Kerry, to practice this. He constantly hammers DPS and technique. We will often do load sets. We'll load up our legs, or our whole bodies, in a really hard set, and THEN we'll do stroke stuff. That way our stroke isn't horrible near the end- we're tired, but the stroke remains intact even though we're fatigued. Works for us :agree:

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

jim thornton — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:12:56 GMT

I respectfully disagree. I suggest to increase your stroke count and decrease your DPS. Kind of like changing gears on a bike when you go uphill. With a shorter stroke you can focus on the money spot of the pull and maintain form. Mr. Ninny raises an excellent point. My friend Glenn Battle is a veteranarian whose own father was also a vet--for Churchill Downs in Louisville. After watching me die a horrible death at the end of the 100 LCM freestyle, Glenn told me that the same sort of thing happens with race horses at the end of the Kentucky Derby. What the good jockeys do is to get their steeds to subtly change their gaits, thus recruiting some new muscle fibers that aren't yet thoroughly spent. I suspect that changing your swim stroke slightly at the point of "dying" might serve the same purpose. I think that increasing your stroke count might be one way to counteract swim death. You can also increase your kick effort (assuming this, too, has not died yet); and one thing I've found useful is to concentrate a wee bit more on the final part of the stroke underwater--the push phase. Still, no matter how you slice or dice it, you can't be 100 percent comfortable and do your best times. If anything, the opposite is the case.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Allen Stark — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:03:27 GMT

I say form should almost always take precedence.When you are gutting out the end of a race you need to have trained to keep your form then.That said I think there can be a mental benefit from pushing yourself to the ragged edge.I think the key is just how ragged the edge is.I'd say as your fatigue increases try to increase your DPS or in some other way focus on something to hold it together.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Allen Stark — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 09:43:16 GMT

Re: my increase in DPS comment,I sometimes forget that freestylers may not be like breaststrokers.In a race as I get tired I try to increase my stroke rate to compensate,but in a workout I try to focus on DPs as a way to focus on form.Also if I do this in workout, when I do race I don't tend to slip water as much.If this doesn't work for free,my apologies.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

smontanaro — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 08:01:40 GMT

I don't believe this business of "ingraining bad form" into muscle memory unless you spend most of your practice time swimming with poor form. My sentiments exactly. RTodd mentioned: This post is as a result of one of today's sets where I simply did not want to "give up" and switch from fly to free. I think it depends a lot on how ingrained a good stroke is. If you have a good stroke gutting out a hard set probably won't hurt. I, however, have a horrible butterfly. It would do me no good to try and "hold it together". I'd either reinforce bad habits or hurt myself. Skip

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:57:57 GMT

I haven't seen footage of pros falling apart at the end of their race. They're in control Must take alot of work to get like that A tough training set is more difficult than a tough swim event. Their form falls apart too. Euh well. Note that if I could get their worst form I'd be happy with it ;-) The longest butterfly event you could see Phelps committing to would be the 200 right? Just at varsity level, I've often seen 200 specialists being thrown in 1500 butterfly time trial. Phelps would probably do under 18min on this sort of test, but trust me, his stroke at the end would not look like that of the beginning of the set. And besides, all events found on youtube involving those pros are done with a full taper.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:50:31 GMT

or Dinosaur arms (think T. Rex)! :D

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:44:34 GMT

I haven't seen footage of pros falling apart at the end of their race. They're in control Must take alot of work to get like that Watch Michael Phelps 200 Fly from the last Duel in the Pool. He started to get Alligator arms a bit on the last 50. While not a total loss of control you can feel his pain as you watch it.:D

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:38:18 GMT

I know that on days when I'm feeling sluggish I change my DPS, always to quicken my tempo. It seems to ease the sluggish feeling. I always plan on changing my tempo on the last part of a race, and it's not to increace my DPS. Changing gears can be effective. I wish I had more gears to choose from. I wonder if the "pros" stroke count changes over a 200 free? I know mine does, but I am an amateur.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Karen Duggan — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 01:47:02 GMT

"Alligator arms" I love it!!! That is what I look like too!

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:57:19 GMT

On frequent occasions, I feel my form fall apart on tougher sets, but I finish regardless of my form. I feel it is more important to force my body to undergo the physiological adaptation resulting from these "near death" sets than to worry about maintaining form. As long as I imprint the correct form in less strenuous sets I feel it is OK to gut tougher sets out when my form is falling apart. Many times I finish my workout with some shorter repeats to finish and leave the pool with the correct form imprinted in my mind. This post is as a result of one of today's sets where I simply did not want to "give up" and switch from fly to free. I felt it was important to finish it the way I intended to give me a metal boost that I can do it as well as force the body to adapt. Is this mentality towards training wrong? I know I have done the same thing as you. As I fatigue, I sometimes let my form diminish. I would say this is bad. It's all about repetition and muscle memory. Sometimes when my fingers get tired, or my finger tips hurt while playing a song on my guitar, I let bad form take over because it is easier. Just like swimming, allowing bad form, will eventually become a habit, and one that is tough to break. With guitar, we are taught to practice the song at a slower pace until you get it right, then increase speed. Will this also apply to swimming? My wife had a great outside shot in college, and good left-handed layup, but her form wasn't perfect, and it is because she never practiced perfect form. She will be the first to admit it. I know it is a tough habit to break, but try and swim in race form. Even at your most tired, try and remember to do the little things that you know make you more efficient. For example, when I am completely relaxed, my stroke count will be 11-12 per lap. When I am tired and sloppy, it adds up, almost near 15-17. I am not saying 17 is bad, but 6 more strokes when I am tired? That's bad form. So I try and think about it during sets. You'll be thanking yourself during a race when your tired and still using good form.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:11:38 GMT

There is no avoiding it, in my opinion. Once you cross that lactate threshold line, your muscles can't maintain the same form as before. But if you don't practice sometimes in this state, your body won't be able to get used to this. I don't believe this business of "ingraining bad form" into muscle memory unless you spend most of your practice time swimming with poor form. This doesn't appear to be the case with you. I think you just lose it when you're really tired and tight. But again, if you don't practice in this condition occasionally, you won't be able to swim races in this condition--and a good race, particularly 100 or more, always involves some discomfort of this type. For what it's worth, one other consideration: Sometimes your stroke feels horrible, but if you were to film it, you might be surprised how relatively unaffected it looks. I'm not saying it looks great, but it probably isn't nearly as ugly as it feels. Next time you swim a 100 in a meet, get somebody to film you. Chances are you will feel like the last 10-15 yards are really broken down--but it won't seem nearly as bad on the video. Agreed. On top of that you should usually follow up those type of sets with some stroke drill or easy pull set. Not only does it let you cool down, but also regain your form.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:15:39 GMT

A lot depends on the shape you are in and the race you are training for. There will be times when your form goes away and you just need to muscle through to get the time, make the set, or even finish. Don't hurt yourself. During those moments I chide myself about my lack of pacing. Some of my PRs were done in complete agony, some were done with ease. I can't figure it out, but I prefer ease.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:08:21 GMT

No. You should strive to maintain "perfect" form on tough sets, otherwise you are ingraining bad (technique) habits.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

Former Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:06:58 GMT

Try to maintain form but finish the set anyhow as long as you don't injure something and you will still have enough energy to drive home/go to work afterwards. Just like you wouldn't stop a race when your form falls apart 5 or 15 yards from the finish.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

rtodd — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:21:03 GMT

I hate dumping an interval to "catch my breath", I hate switching from fly to free, I hate grabbing paddles, and I really hate reaching for fins. It seems like the consensus so far is that this breakdown is part of tough sets and sometimes can't/shouldn't be avoided. The way I look at it, if the form breaks down too much I will miss the interval, but I can make it, then perhaps it did not break down as much as I feel it did. I know that sometimes my form just isn't right and a wonder if I should stop. I try to keep track of missed intervals and I try to make up the yardage while people are getting out of the pool.

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

jim thornton — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:46:12 GMT

RE: OK to let form fall apart on tough sets?

jeffsab — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:27:31 GMT

I think this is something of a chicken-egg question. My $0.02: "Muscling through" practices is not a good thing to be doing, but it happens, just as other bad habits do (like breathing off the walls). One thing I have found in my brief life as a Masters swimmer is that I am much less likely to fall into this sort of behavior than I was as a high schooler, probably because there's less pressure to perform at practice, but also because I'm much mentally stronger that I was 20 years ago.