Sinking hips during recovery in fly

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 07:23:29 GMT

Swim a fast 25 fly for time Let me know what it is Fast 25m? I almost always swim in the sea (with triathlon wetsuit), very rarely in the pool. I'll time it next time, but I guess it won't be below 20" without jump, just push off the wall on start. Won't be much over 20" as well :) I know I'm slow :blush:

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

ande — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:17:01 GMT

Swim a fast 25 fly for time Let me know what it is

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 06:49:38 GMT

Hi Charles, thanks for you post. I worked last year exactly on those points you mentioned in your post. I worked on softer upkick and later downkick (or earlier outsweep). When I analyzed my underwater videos, I realised that I finish with my kick when my arms are under my chest, instead of next to my hips. So, I tried really hard to concentrate on "delaying" beginning downkick until my arms are under my chest, that way downkick would finish at the same time as underwater arm stroke. This shortened my extended arms position, increased overall stroke rate and made my fly harder, but timing was much better. Basically, the only part of butterfly that could significantly be extended (in attempt to swim more relaxed) is the position with extended arms at hands entry phase. But it seems to put kick out of timing. I also concentrated on my hands entry. I would usually jump into the water, which would mean that my hands would go together with head deep into the water and then I would lift them up before starting the outsweep (the swimmer in your bottom video does it as well). I think they say "hands lead the undulation" for this wrong movement. Just my thoughts :) Regards. - Predrag. Great mate, as Ande suggested, it would be very informative to have an idea of what your current fly speed is. That said, as far as I'm concerned, I'd love to know how you're doing on a flat out 50m NAD as well (NAD is the name given to this fly drill we both discovered). That thing isn't meant to be performed slow or moderate speed all the time. Ultimately, it should be performed at full speed, ie full race pace undulation rate (my undulation rate over 50 goes over 50 cycles /min). But regardless of all this, two things: My position has changed regarding the Upbeat preceeding the second dolphin kick. In fact, I made a discovery ever since I last updated this thread (sorry for the confusion). Let us say for now that your move to improve your timing in regards to the second kick is a fair investment. As for my new findings, I'll be more than happy to share them with you here as soon as I finish discussing them with Ernest Maglischo, ie certainly one of the only resources available out there in which I have great trust to discuss these matters.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 08:11:49 GMT

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:56:08 GMT

Hi Predrag, not sure if you're still active on US MS. Was wondering if you finally came to the bottom of understanding what was causing your hips to sink? (I hope so). Anyway, on my end things have evolved (quite a lot) since 2010. I'm now in charge of a new Butterfly class in our local University and so this has given me great opportunitites to perform stroke analysis etc... Last year I finally put my finger of what I believe to be a cause of hip sinkage. I think this problem is due, or at least aggravated by a Balance that's not right. More specifically. When the legs are recovering (Upbeat) in prep for the first kick (obviously, this upbeat is happening after the 2nd kick downbeat), that adds some weight to the back of the stroke. This upbeat of the first kick does not help you to float, it gets you to sink. The more (and the harder) you pull on your legs bending the knees etc, the bigger the sinkage. I've found that if at this critical moment, your arms are too early into their recovery phase, they too (being positionned at the back of the stroke) add some weight, which worsten the sinkage effect. Add to this the head that must pop out to breathe once in a whilst, you're now up to a lot of weight to the back of the stroke (big balance issue). A stronger first kick downbeat is then required to compensate. It's my opinion that several people maintain this problem without even being aware of it. If you look at the following clip, you can observe 2 fly swimmers. The top one has a PB of 1:01 SCM, the other one can barely break 1:30. Now, look closely for the upbeat preceeding the first kick for Top swimmer. You'll notice that (first) his 2nd kick is delayed until the end (which is good). Therefore the Upbeat of the first kick also gets delayed. As a consequence, when the Top swimmer performs this Upbeat preceeding the first kick, his arms are already almost back at the front of the stroke. In fact, when he initiates the Upbeat, arms / hands are at the front. Also, you'll notice that he doesn't bend the knees aggressively on this Upbeat. In comparison, the swimmer at the bottom, like 90% of masters I'd say, is way too early on the 2nd kick. The Upbeat that follows this early 2nd kick therefore takes place too early. Timing wise the arms are still at the back of the stroke. Add to this that he's very aggressive in pulling up his legs (bending the knees etc). Conclusion, on top of leaving the hand exit prior arm recovey phase without the extra propulsion provided by the 2nd kick that should happen simultaneously, an early 2nd kick can be considered as a potential cause for hip sinkage. Underwater Comparison Of Butterfly Strokes - YouTube Thanks to Lindsay btw for his excellent work in building a massive video clip database.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:54:58 GMT

Hi Solar, yes I'm still following, sorry for a late reply. Thanks for keeping me updated, don't hesitate to do it in future as well. Regarding hands entry, I didn't work on it lately. Although there are some things I tried. I thought that close to the end of the recovery, arms could be stopped before entering the water (by literally fixing the shoulder joint) and they would actually "sink" into the water together with the upper body. Once I feel hands are in the water, I start with the catch. I don't know if it's correct and didn't have time to make some videos of this. I will post once I do them. Also, looking at Phelps' hands entry, I had a feeling that he relaxes shoulders when hands enter the water, so water literally spreads his arms by itself. That way, he makes minimum of drag. Just my opinion :) I managed to swim 75m butterfly recently (with no breaks :)) Also, I reduced my 50m time to 49"6 (without jump, underwater kicking etc). I think I started feeling second upbeat much better. I try to completely relax my hips after the second downbeat and to start upbeat by pushing my thighs downwards. Still not "perfect", but definitely better. Also, I am going to order Speedo Speed Fins (www.amazon.com/.../B001HBHWB6). Since they exaggerate upbeat, I thought I would learn how to make it gentler, since it would pull my body down otherwise. Also, I thought if I put some weights around my hips, my body would try harder to lift them up. Another thing I would like to try is snorkel (in central position), something like www.finisinc.com/.../Adult-Swimmer's-Snorkel---Blue (I don't know why this link doesn't show properly in thread). In combination with dry top attachment, it could be useful for butterfly training as well. I haven't tried it yet, so I'll keep you updated about this as well. Best regards.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:01:17 GMT

Hey Predrag, if you're still following. Recently whilst working on something else (arm entry width and feeling) I made a little discovery. It's a feeling thing though, not a scientific one (sorry ;-) I needed to slow down the execution a bit, especially the moment between hand entry and the actual catch. I wanted to get this feeling that I'm nose diving while leaving my hands very close to the surface. My fly has been little screwed up as a result of wanting to learn, or get somewhat closer to Phelps's technique. I think those clips he let people publish on youtube, especially the 3 lessons are a huge chance. But in the same time, man, that's not easy to even get close. Like I said, I stopped flying fast, I live on 24 or 36 x 50m fly on 1:05 these days. So, back to the nose diving catch. During breathing recovery, uphill right?. Then after hands entry, downhill. During this slowed down execution with a very slow catch, I could really feel very clearly the moment where the weight shifts from upward to downward. And the hips being the pivotal moment. That, along with the clean entry and nose diving, I truly got the impression that I was keeping the forward momentum (a slow one though, 55s per 50m) at virtually no cost on entry. And more importantly, those hips that act as pivot. I could feel exactly where they are when executing this and they remain very close to the surface during the whole execution. Unfortunately at that speed I can't bring them totally at the surface. But tonight I tried fly at full speed and I really managed to control the depth of this nose diving whilst shallow catching. And by exaggerating the amplitude, well. Something was going on and the time confirmed. But damn is it difficult to learn. Takes huge shoulder flexibility. And I could not get through this without a solid dryland program. Impossible. I also think that Phelps stroke, as you get closer to this, you may loose a good deal of punch over 50m Fly. That technique isn't meant for short sprints. Way too soft on entry / catch.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:17:02 GMT

That was it, the shoulder niggle. 3 weights sessions so far and it all disappeared. I even increased the fly volume up to 1800m per sessions in the same time. Weights seem to have a favorable impact on strengthening the shoulder articulation as well as improving distance per stroke. Way to go!

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 07:18:40 GMT

By very far, the best illustration indeed. Very careful on the leg recovery, very explosive on the leg wip kick. BTW Lyndsay, I did my first gym session yesterday prior a 1500 swim workout (mostly but not limited to butterfly). The result went over my expectations. No pain at all, during the swim session and after the swim session. And as a bonus, I lowered the 100m pull down under 1:10 on a 15 stroke per 25m diet. In other words, Weights definitely seem to work well for me. Lyndsay, thanks for having taken the time to detect this little bug about my hips surfacing on second kick. It's been discussed here in post #46 - - - Predrag, if you notice, I cheat on the second kick. I still don't know if it's right or wrong. I haven't addressed that yet. But if you look at my butt on second kick I raise it back to the surface. I am not suggesting this is what you should do though, but since it's inline with your topic. I do that by instinct, again I think it's bad. I think I could get more forward momentum on second kick if I wasn't doing this. I believe that it is something my body is naturally doing. It origins from my no-arm butterfly drill. I'm still unsure yet if it's good or bad. One thing that I know is that any energy spent at surfacing (my bum) isn't spend moving forward. However, it may still has an indirect and favorable impact since it allows me to stay little more at the surface, I don't know. Not even sure if I'll have time this year to address this. Every flaw takes a long while to be solved and to tell you the truth, this arm entry without splashes is draining all my time available right now.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:55:38 GMT

A short clip illustrating good butterfly kick form with the feet sliding forward while the thighs press down - instead of the feet pressing upward: YouTube- Crocker Leg Recovery

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 09:26:08 GMT

Thanks a lot Lindsay for very detailed advise. It seems to me that you found a big clue to what your issue is when you noticed (in your blog) that your hips don't sink when you don't kick. Actually couple of people in this thread (especially Solar) pointed at my upbeat as possible source of problem. If you compare your stroke to Phelps during the phase where you suddenly drop you will see that he is pressing down on the water with his thighs while drawing his feet forward along the surface of the water, followed by kicking his feet back, while you are pressing upward on the water with your feet and lower leg. That's very well spotted. I tried yesterday and tonight to press with my thighs during recovery and it looks like my hips easily broke water surface after first kick, but I don't feel it natural yet. I need to make some underwater videos to see how it looks like. I will keep you posted. Best regards.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:58:49 GMT

Hey Solar, Your approach of working on your fly through slowing it down and swimming longer distances caught my eye as it goes against the conventional wisdom of swimming small increments of faster fly. The conventional thinking is that your stroke changes when you slow it down, you mention swimming lower in the water for example. One of the things that usually changes is the pull pattern, when people slow down their stroke they usually either throw in a pause of the arms out front or use a more pronounced out-and-in scull at the front to get the same delay. The youtube Michael Phelps Butterfly 01 video is probably the best illustration I've seen of a wide entry with little to no outscull. I looked at your sculling in your various youtube videos but didn't come to any definite conclusions, it was interesting though that there seemed to be significant variation within your 100m fly video, it looked to me like you scull more as you tire. I was looking at this video recently: YouTube- Butterfly Stroke Comparison and I think there are some clues there on timing issues which you might find interesting. Notice the way the top swimmer's hips come to the surface, my theory is that this is achieved by timing. Compare your hip motion in the first 25 of your 100 versus the last 25 or versus your endurance stroke. The bottom swimmer illustrates an extreme out-and-in scull. I'm interested in what led you to try the endurance fly approach versus the more conventional short intervals approach?

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:19:46 GMT

Lindsay (if you're still reading) or anyone that knows about weights... It works my strategy. I'm entering wide now, and I bring the hands together. Feels good. I know the feeling I have to search for. And I sometimes feel it. However, now the tendons of my arm adductors are like. Wow. So sore. Well not sore but sensitive? I don't feel them then suddenly I make a move like grabbing a cup of coffee and I feel something. Not a big pain but. Strangely (cause I've never ever felt anything wrong in this area), it's a small muscle part of the frontal deltoid (sorry, you know what I mean) responsible for arm adduction that feels weirdish. Or it could also be the end of pectorals, where it ties to the arm. It's in this region. Near the armpit. As a prevention, I was thinking of doing just little bit of weights. It's a shift in my technique that brings some of muscles to be more active than before. What would you suggest? Flies I guess? Did another kilo tonight. Felt great no pain whatsoever. I get more pain writing you this text at my computer.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:53:58 GMT

I was just curious, do you swim 1 kilo in one go, without breaks? I could and I did a few times. But usually I prefer to split the distance into smaller chunks, mainly to break the boredom and also to improve comfort (after a while, I loose my bathing cap etc... it's good to have a short rest interval to put it back in place). Last summer, my only swim workout (I train as a triathlete) was 5x200 butterfly endurance pace. Looks hard, but it's not. The key is slowing down the butterfly execution so that more mileage can be done at full stroke. That clip was taken during one of these sessions last summer. It's very slowish but it gives you an idea YouTube- Base endurance Butterfly - Full stroke (Side View) These days I like to perform a whole bunch of 50m. Yesterday I did 24x50m and I want to grow this up to 60x50m butterfly on 1min cruising between 45-50s. This is my goal. I learnt it myself. As I remember, I started with kickboard held in front with stretched arms and kicking first and second kick. Then I removed kickboard. Great!!! Lastly, I moved arms next to the body. yack!! (way too slow I hate this one). I think that the breathing moment in this drill could easily go slightly wrong, shifted a little bit late, after the second kick. I agree 100%. I like to teach people to look at where they're going to breathe before breathing. It usually sufficient to sort the timing out. Do you maybe have underwater footage of yourself doing it? No not yet although I fancy buying one of these underwater cam. Do you think you bend in hips during second kick? Not sure I understand this question... Ah you mean doing this little cheat? I most likely do, especially when doing fast mileage. In fact, the reason why I don't try to eliminate it from the full stroke at this point is that I'm also doing it whilst kicking and well. 3min45 for 200 kick, I'm pleased with it. If it's not broken don't try to fix it! Thanks a lot solar once again. I really appreciate your advices. You're very good Predrag, very analytic. Back to the slow mileage, my main goal in approaching BF this way was to accumulate a lot of volume where I can focus on staying at the surface, where I have plenty of time thinking about all those body parts that need to work together in harmony etc.... Could be a good approach for you as well!!

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:39:50 GMT

I'm interested in what led you to try the endurance fly approach versus the more conventional short intervals approach? Hi Lindsay, first thanks for the clip. It's an interesting one. I totally agree with you on the differences that can exist between an endurance based stroke mechanics and sprint based technique. To some extent, it is true for all strokes though. What led me to tackle on this approach? Few things: - I wanted to research on this avenue since very few actually do - I wanted to totally eliminate any fear of being thrown in a 200m event (*) - I wanted to accumulate as much mileage as possible at my specialty stroke - I really love this stroke. I often quit the pool after a ~2k workout without having swam a single length of free style (wup/mainset/cdown all at butterfly) (*) This goal is completely achieved. If I start a 200m too fast now, I slow down (just like with any other stroke) but my arms will recover over the surface without a single doubt. Therefore in the context of a swim squad training set, such as (I donno) 8x200 choice (or specialty) on 4min, I can book the whole set at butterfly. I would just go after the breaststrokers. In such a set, the best I could aim for would be 3:20-3:25 at the moment. So that places me after the breaststrokers. I must say that I'm not entirely satisfied with my performances over 50 so far. 31.7 is my best this year and this is still a full second slower than what I had expected. However, in training so far, I have accumulated maybe 20 50m sprints, no more than that. So I blame this relatively slow 50m on the inefficiency of my anaerobic metabolism (almost untrained). My first attempt at a 50m butterfly (shown on a previous clip) resulted in 31.8 with no previous sprint training whatsoever (I went from pure base endurance to this competition without modifying my schedule and without tapering). But like I said, I specialize over 200 and my goal for this year would be to bring it home in 2:45. I have enough pure speed to achieve this, so I'm not overly worried. As soon as I work toward bringing my 100m well under 1:10 (that 100clip was worth 1:14 in practice, no warmup whatsoever, dry dive so to speak), I expect my 50m to go under 30s which is my goal for this year. As for your comment about pulling patterns, I share your views 100% (agree on all counts). I am currently working very seriously to achieve pretty much the same hand/arm entry as Phelp's. I think that this guy really set what could be considered as the most perfect butterfly stroke actually available. Lots of power but yet, very little drag, almost no splash on entry, amazing!! I want no more outward scull. A wide entry with no dead spot whatsoever in the front.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:24:11 GMT

Solar, I noticed that you exit your hands with your palms down. If you can stop the video at the :20 mark you will clearly see that. At exit your palms should be up and should rotate thru to a downward position (or slightly angled so thumb enters first) as your arms settle into the water. Thanks pwolf, I am not saying I wouldn't try, but for me, I think that the reason my palms are facing down on exit is to be able to totally unlock the shoulder upon recovery. I typically swim >1kilo of butterfly full stroke per workout these days and it is absolutely crucial that I maintain proper shoulder health. For instance, yesterday my workout summed up to 1.8k, all butterfly, not a single length of free style. It's a kilo full stroke and 4x200 kick (my 0-arm drill), all done in 3:45 (I was pleased). So there are some mechanisms that took place quite naturally for my body to be able to sustain this mileage. I believe that exiting palm down is one of them. I will try playing to the angle pitch a bit to see how it affects my feeling, pleasure and performance but I can not promise that it'll work. As for clapping and distance per stroke, my normal butterfly involves both hands that are touching each other in the front. This is something I've been doing for years, I'm trying to move away from this in order to gain more stroke rate. My current distance per stroke, I'm not satisfied with it. I live on a 10-11 stroke diet. I wish I could take this down to 9-10 but this year, it's already a bit late. Good thing though is that I'm a 200 specialist. 10-11 strokes can bring me near 2:30 this summer (given I hold the rate). I wouldn't break any record over 50m with such a lousy stroke count but for a 200 it should work ok. - - - - Then I thought that my second kick (I called it first in my blog post :)) creates too much upforce instead of forward force, so the body jumps up too much. I'm really curious if you have some explanation about it, preferably with some physics ;) Well, since I am not even sure if it's good or bad (duality exists between going up or going forward), it'd be hard to pin point the exact cause. Like I explain earlier to pwolf, there are a certain number of things that your body decides by himself to do to solve various issues. Since you're aware that your hips have a tendency to sink, I believe that sub consciously, this is one solution your body has found to achieve a better position. Thanks for the link to 0-arm butterfly. Who taught you this? - - - - Lindsay, it's been a while... glad to see you back with extremely sound and accurate advises. Thanks!

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:34:06 GMT

It's a kilo full stroke and 4x200 kick (my 0-arm drill), all done in 3:45 (I was pleased). I was just curious, do you swim 1 kilo in one go, without breaks? Thanks for the link to 0-arm butterfly. Who taught you this? I learnt it myself. As I remember, I started with kickboard held in front with stretched arms and kicking first and second kick. Then I removed kickboard. Lastly, I moved arms next to the body. I think that the breathing moment in this drill could easily go slightly wrong, shifted a little bit late, after the second kick. Do you maybe have underwater footage of yourself doing it? Do you think you bend in hips during second kick? Thanks a lot solar once again. I really appreciate your advices.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:50:51 GMT

It seems to me that you found a big clue to what your issue is when you noticed (in your blog) that your hips don't sink when you don't kick. If you compare your stroke to Phelps during the phase where you suddenly drop you will see that he is pressing down on the water with his thighs while drawing his feet forward along the surface of the water, followed by kicking his feet back, while you are pressing upward on the water with your feet and lower leg. Between gravity and your feet pushing upward and the fact that you are already too vertical at that point all forces are aligned for a big drop. You might try starting with no kick, adding a little more chest press, and then very slowly easing in a little kick being careful not to kick predominately from the knees. When you dolphin kick on your back it is easier to get the feel of starting the kick at your hips with your knees coming up a bit (as you are on your back) with your feet drawing forward and toes pointing down instead of your feet moving down, and then both your thigh and feet returning to straight simultaneously as if you are thrusting some water back at the wall you are swimming away from. The key point here is to avoid what you are doing now which is pressing your knees down (when you are on your front) followed by the downstroke of the feet without the knees coming back up, which is leaving your feet way too deep and hence your attitude too vertical. Learning to swim with your body rather than your limbs is the idea behind body dolphins - but learn to do these with fins (long or short) before you try without. Note: this advise may be worth what you paid for it! Just another perspective.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:34:00 GMT

At exit your palms should be up and should rotate thru to a downward position (or slightly angled so thumb enters first) as your arms settle into the water. pwolf, could you please explain in more details palm angles during the recovery? As I understood, during exit, fingers point backwards, little finger leaves the water first, palms are facing each other. Then palms are rotated to point upwards (fingers point outwards), with little finger being the first in the line. Then, close to the end, fingers start pointing downwards, with palms pointing backwards. Is this correct? Thanks a lot. - Predrag.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:26:54 GMT

Predrag, if you notice, I cheat on the second kick. I still don't know if it's right or wrong. I haven't addressed that yet. But if you look at my butt on second kick I raise it back to the surface. I am not suggesting this is what you should do though, but since it's inline with your topic. I do that by instinct, again I think it's bad. I think I could get more forward momentum on second kick if I wasn't doing this. Hi SolarEnergy, I have this "problem" as well. You will see it on my videos in first blog post. I haven't figured out why it's happening. At first I thought I push my hands too deep that I start bending forward, but I doubt it. Then I thought that my second kick (I called it first in my blog post :)) creates too much upforce instead of forward force, so the body jumps up too much. I'm really curious if you have some explanation about it, preferably with some physics ;) Best regards. - Predrag.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:20:12 GMT

The greater the velocity (forward) the less you sink. But this is probably what you meant by flow dynamic. Yep, I think I just understood what you meant. I meant fluid dynamics :) sorry for the confusion, but you understood me anyway ;) I didn't know you knew about principle of physics that much. I voluntarily omitted one element that also brings you down because it does so through an esoteric weight shift, wait let me explain. On catch, if you press the water down, that brings the hip down. You get the same effect as if you were wanting to push against the side of the pool to exit and go home. Physics is my hobby. I made a couple of physics simulators, since I'm software developer. I was going to make a simple swimming simulator, but struggling with spare time at the moment, so it's going pretty slowly. In the effect above, I also see Third Newton, upper body tries to pull the arms closer to the body (against water resistance), but also arms tend to pull the upper body closer to arms. On the other hand, downbeat of legs kick tends to lift the hips, so probably it's about the balance between these two. But in your case, I'm absolutely convinced based on the timing during which the hip sinkage occurs that it has a lot to do with the leg recovery being too sudden and hard. Would you be kind enough to post a link? This is my eariler blog post with "above the water" footage of "legs only" exercise with arms in front: http://blog.grkovic.com/?p=18 http://blog.grkovic.com/?p=55 That's what took me so long :) I made some underwater videos. To me, the most relevant to this thread is the exercise where I swim without legs and when I manage to concentrate on relaxing the legs as much as possible, hips stop sinking. Or is it only me seeing ;) Thanks a lot for your time and advices. Best regards. - Predrag.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

pwolf66 — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 02:44:54 GMT

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:33:32 GMT

Hey, SolarEnergy, There is more than one way to fly. Your's is very similar to Cseh, who is, after one of the best flyers in the world. Does he splash as much? Anyway, I'm not very gifted on the physical/fitness side. I absolutely need to cut on drag as much as I possibly can in order to book podiums at our next Provincial Championship (equivalent to you guys' State Championship). I think Phelps Butterfly is a better vehicle for folks like me. It is safe (shoulders), extremely efficient and as a bonus, very good looking. I'll soon post some footage of what's been my bf transformation so far. Next big test is a meet in February for which I'd like to take the 50m down under 30sec. Then you should do 1 arm fly and focus on dragging your thumb on the surface of the water during the recovery. Thanks pwolf for this advice. I haven't done a lot of this so far. My strategy lies more on full stroke training. In a 2.5k workout, I usually accumulate at least 1 full kilo of butterfly during which I focus on: - Recovering the arms as fast as possible in order to get both hands in from, at shoulder width asap - Performing this recovery while keeping both hands close to the surface - Making sure I do not add any "arm" downward momentum upon hand entry. I just put my body weights to this entry and that's all.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:49:54 GMT

You have a great body dolphin. I wanted to show you Cseh's stroke so you don't think you need to re invent the wheel. Your fly looks real good. And I really appreciated it. I didn't know that such a successful swimmer was performing this sort of stroke. Thanks a lot. For what it's worth (always little embarrassing to post our bad little clips after that of Phelps and Cseh), I got clipped tonight. That's "dry" (no wup before) after 4 days of inactivity but you can see that there's a slight improvement. I got to keep the pace moderate though otherwise I get back to my old habits. Should be ready for mid April though: YouTube- Just a little 50m Butterfly done at moderate speed Sorry for lazy first kick. My focus was elsewhere. Now, my problem is that after entry, the arm adduction continues. I may enter near shoulder width but continues to bring my hands together hence this small splash. But it's better than it was though. Never ending story, that's why I like this stroke so much. - - - Predrag, if you notice, I cheat on the second kick. I still don't know if it's right or wrong. I haven't addressed that yet. But if you look at my butt on second kick I raise it back to the surface. I am not suggesting this is what you should do though, but since it's inline with your topic. I do that by instinct, again I think it's bad. I think I could get more forward momentum on second kick if I wasn't doing this.

RE: Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Former Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:40:20 GMT

If I try to analyze preparation for the first kick (the moment that worried me initially) what forces do we have? Downward forces: 1. gravity 2. upbeat of the second kick 3. hands leaving the water Upward forces: 1. buoyance. But since buoyance decreases at this moment since the arms go above the water, this force's overall contribution is more downward (it has negative change). 2. flow dynamics. The whole body is in "uphill" position after the pull and before the recovery and since the water flows towards the swimmer, water tends to lift the swimmer up. I like your reading of the facts, and I agree to a large extent. I'd add the following element to your upward forces' list. - Forward momentum The greater the velocity (forward) the less you sink. But this is probably what you meant by flow dynamic. Yep, I think I just understood what you meant. I particularly like the fact that you included upbeat of the second kick. Additionally, rotation of arms from shoulders (beginning of the recovery - upsweep), creates most probably counter force moment in the shoulder to the rest of the body which tends to rotate body counter-clockwise (when watched from the right side), which also brings hips down. Yep. I see what you mean here and I agree. However, the portion preceding this phase is believed to be the most propulsive. Therefore the exit's negative impact is probably very little. I didn't know you knew about principle of physics that much. I voluntarily omitted one element that also brings you down because it does so through an esoteric weight shift, wait let me explain. On catch, if you press the water down, that brings the hip down. You get the same effect as if you were wanting to push against the side of the pool to exit and go home. But in your case, I'm absolutely convinced based on the timing during which the hip sinkage occurs that it has a lot to do with the leg recovery being too sudden and hard. Thanks for the no-arms drill. I actually used this drill (I posted this in one of my previous posts on my blog). Although I posted above the water video, probably more interesting would be underwater one. I'll make it and post it. Would you be kind enough to post a link? I keep claiming the paternity of this drill, being aware that there are certainly over 20 coaches that invented it (I'm not pretentious enough to believe that I'm smarter than other coaches). However, I'm yet to see an execution with arms in the front and total respect of breathing and kicking patterns. Thanks