What pull pattern are you using?

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

__steve__ — Sat, 09 Jan 2010 11:12:56 GMT

I'm thinking this requires a picture... SI have to take a new picture of Lizard, but here's one of him from last summer eating a snack on my arm.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:17:49 GMT

Cool lizard Shane, a baby iguana found it's way into my carry-on in Aruba two years ago. We adopted him and now he's almost 2 feet. bet that was a surprise. i had one quite a while back that got pretty big but he was perfectly evil and DW said he goes or... well i don't remember but anyways he went. this one is DD's very tame Fence Lizard. her name is Saturn and she is quite cooperative if there is a mealworm to be had. not a bad swimmer either.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

smontanaro — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:51:51 GMT

Cool lizard Shane, a baby iguana found it's way into my carry-on in Aruba two years ago. We adopted him and now he's almost 2 feet. I'm thinking this requires a picture... S

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

__steve__ — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:45:34 GMT

Baby iguanas can walk on water! videos.howstuffworks.com/.../28613-wildlife-on-one-iguanas-walk-on-water-video.htm They stroke with their hind legs. But notice they don't use catch-up at all, they use pure kayak with bent-leg recovery.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

__steve__ — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:31:03 GMT

If I don't skull, my hand may vibrate from turbulence and it feels wasteful since the object is to grab the water to carry your body forward, and turbulence means your just moving the hand through the water. Dolphin kick free is a drill that seems to help for me by placing importance on effective hand movement.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:28:41 GMT

I think you can objectively see how fast you're moving forward with a friend and a stopwatch. you are kidding right? i think it's pretty cool and would like to try it.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 10:51:14 GMT

Genadijus Sokolovas (in Colorado Springs) and I (in Southern California) can scientifically and objectively test your velocity, force and acceleration on all five strokes. That is, at every point in your stroke whether it is butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke, freestyle or the Fifth Stroke, you can objectively see how fast (or slow) you are moving forward. Videos and descriptions are shown at www.swimetrics.com or www.swimbythesea.com. We also travel across the United States to conduct tests that takes the guesswork out of understanding what pull pattern or kick style is optimal for you. I think you can objectively see how fast you're moving forward with a friend and a stopwatch.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

__steve__ — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 10:29:54 GMT

Cool lizard Shane, a baby iguana found it's way into my carry-on in Aruba two years ago. We adopted him and now he's almost 2 feet.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 07:23:44 GMT

Genadijus Sokolovas (in Colorado Springs) and I (in Southern California) can scientifically and objectively test your velocity, force and acceleration on all five strokes. That is, at every point in your stroke whether it is butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke, freestyle or the Fifth Stroke, you can objectively see how fast (or slow) you are moving forward. Videos and descriptions are shown at www.swimetrics.com or www.swimbythesea.com. We also travel across the United States to conduct tests that takes the guesswork out of understanding what pull pattern or kick style is optimal for you. Do you have any insights into which pull pattern seems to work best for most people, or for different types of people?

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 06:18:40 GMT

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:53:45 GMT

I just wanted to say how interresting this discussion was. I'm getting back into swimming after being a D1 collegiate swimmer YEARS ago. I ended up quitting swimming because of an extremely efficient freestyle pull. Found out I was actually partially dislocating my left shoulder during the pull. So I'm interrested to see if my pull goes more toward the I stroke now after surgery. I don't think I'll ever change to the I stroke fully, the S stroke works so well, but things work differently now with how I've always done things. The small amount of research I've done, I have come to the pre-conclusion that the I pull is best for those whith little to no sulling in their pulls. Many of the drills I did for years focused specifically on diffent sculling, and it would take a very long time for me to get rid of the S pull. Like I said, I haven't done enough research on the different techniques though.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:47:18 GMT

I think the I patter is more of an upside down J pattern. Pulling straight back is counterproductive to efficient propulsion but even if you tried it would be difficult so I think the upside down J is better than the S which is usually overexaggerated anyway.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:04:48 GMT

You can (and should) roll your hips to engage the same stronger muscle groups while using an I pull. I was taught the S pull in the 70s and recently reformed myself based on a stroke analysis performed by Genadijus Sokolovas in May of 2009. The underwater video he took was invaluable, since I could view and compare to accomplished swimmers. I believe (although I have not had another video taken) I have reduced the S to a 'drunken I,' and increased hip roll as well. The combination certainly feels more efficient, similar to XC skiing. I have heard that a significant stroke change like this will slow you down initially, until your musculature re-coordinates. This may be true, but my practice times (more endurance oriented) have improved. Hopefully everything will hash out by May, but I will not go back to my old S pull. Well, what I'm doing is probably more akin to your "drunken I" than an exaggerated S. But it's definitely got the curve to it. I think the timing of your roll will probably have a significant effect on just how "wiggly" your pull pattern is. Do you have a gradual transition across the length of your stroke, or do you tend to skate-and-flip, skate-and-flip?

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 14:57:50 GMT

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Speedo — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 10:18:32 GMT

The muscular argument for the S stroke: Imagine that you need to pull yourself up by grabbing a bar or surface above your head. You don't put your hands together. Instead, you space them at about your shoulders, b/c that's where it's easiest to exert force. Now imagine that you're trying to lift your feet off the ground by pressing against a surface at about mid-body height, such as a kitchen counter. You put your hands closer together, in front of you, because that's where it's easiest to exert force. So the S pattern has the advantage of moving your hands into the positions where you can exert the most amount of force in your stroke with the least amount of energy. You can (and should) roll your hips to engage the same stronger muscle groups while using an I pull. I was taught the S pull in the 70s and recently reformed myself based on a stroke analysis performed by Genadijus Sokolovas in May of 2009. The underwater video he took was invaluable, since I could view and compare to accomplished swimmers. I believe (although I have not had another video taken) I have reduced the S to a 'drunken I,' and increased hip roll as well. The combination certainly feels more efficient, similar to XC skiing. I have heard that a significant stroke change like this will slow you down initially, until your musculature re-coordinates. This may be true, but my practice times (more endurance oriented) have improved. Hopefully everything will hash out by May, but I will not go back to my old S pull.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

__steve__ — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:24:26 GMT

Are the differences between "I" and "S" is the skulling motion is either vertical or horizontal, respectfully?

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:55:20 GMT

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Allen Stark — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 03:57:18 GMT

Is "scull" the correct word? When I think of sculling, I think of slicing sideways through the water. With an angled blade, yes, but still, more of a slice than a push. When I pull in an S pattern, the point is always to propel forward by pushing backward; there's never an attempt to use any sort of propeller-like force or anything like that. A true S can have some sculling(lift dominant force) due to the fact that the hand moves somewhat perpendicular to the direction of propulsion.It is my understanding that the "I" has little or no sculling.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

knelson — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 01:32:51 GMT

I'm sure I don't truly do an 'I' pull, but I don't consciously try to scull either. When I pull I'm thinking about moving the hand straight back. As Tom said it's probably more of a J since your hand does need to clear your hip as it exits the water.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:35:59 GMT

Yes, the large back muscles engaged with EVF offer a lot of power. For the "I" stroke, combined with EVF, would your hand entry be out in front of your shoulder and pull back in a straight line to exit just past and near hip? Thanks, Georgio

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 15:10:07 GMT

It isn't more efficient.The "S" was developed when the idea was that the pull was predominantly lift dominated(like sculling.)Since the current thought is that the pull is drag dominant,it is much straighter. From what I understand, the S wasn't developed, but discovered, when observation of elite swimmers revealed that they didn't use an idealized straight stroke, but rather moved from side to side as they pulled, and it was that discovery which sparked interest in the whole drag/lift thing, which ended up going pretty much nowhere. I was taught the S pattern because it worked. Which it definitely did. Once I developed a better water-feel, I settled into my own stroke pattern, based on where I was feeling the greatest purchase against the water. And for me, a variation of the S pattern gives me that. ETA: With a straight stroke, you generate a greater leading break, which makes your hand move through the water more easily, which is not what you want. Varying the angle and transverse location of your hand allows you to constantly move out of that leading pocket, which gives you a more resistent column of water to push against through the entire range of your stroke.

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

Former Member — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:07:05 GMT

Very descriptive drawing of what I assume is the "S" stroke- lh5.ggpht.com/.../SANY0001.JPG A comparable one of the "I" stroke would really help! Since I converted to EVF with my elbows near the surface, I experienced my upperbody wanting to oscilate, or zig-zag down the lane. (I wear size 38 dress shirt sleeve, so my upper arms are like long outriggers!) I have been finding I can compensate for this with an "S" stroke of my hand. Could the "S" stroke tied to EVF? Thanks, Georgio

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

pwolf66 — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 08:29:43 GMT

Year ago: huge over exagerated 'S' Now: much reduced 'S' pull Goal: Linear 'I' pull in the front half, slight 'S' in the back half

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

hawk43 — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 08:01:07 GMT

I have been using the "S" pattern for as long as I can remember. It feels as natural as chewing gum... However over the past 6 months I have been encouraged by my coaches to bring my elbow up higher, using my larger back muscles (and forearm) versus the shoulder, pulling in a straight back "I" pattern. By doing so I am confident it has has resulted in less stress on my shoulder-a very good thing considering my shoulder was showing signs of lasting fatigue/tendinitis following intense LCM summer workouts. However changing from S to I has also forced me to focus on my catch. With the S, it was natural to catch and sweep out slightly. With the I it is easier to "slip" if I do not engage right at the start of the stroke and if I forget to keep my elbow at the right angle. But it is almost second nature after a few months of technique drills. I am very happy with the results so far. I believe using the stronger back (LAT) muscles compared to the smaller shoulder muscles has given me added power in my sprint events. I also have not had shoulder stress (but that could be a number of things...). I have started seeing the results in races as well - with a recent SCM 50 Free (TYR Chicago) very close to my lifetime best (24 years ago...). :2cents:

RE: What pull pattern are you using?

kmoehumphreys — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 05:38:01 GMT

For freestyle I try to use the "I" pull pattern relative to the bottom of the pool. But if you trace my pull relative to my body it would be more curvy, starting wide - as I am on one side, then sweeping to midline - when I am square, then sweeping out - as I rotate to the other side. So my answer depends on point of reference.