Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:18:21 GMT

If I only practice to improve the speed in short distance, will it help increase the endurance needed for long distance? In other words, say I have trained for several months for (only) speed, could I, one day, suddenly find myself swimming long distance without feeling tired? (Obviously the opposite is not true: simply being able to swim slow long distance doesn't help improve the speed.) Why don't you try it and see? And mb I missed it but what do you consider long distance? 5k, 10k and up? Let us know how it goes.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:28:56 GMT

You can train speed alone and help endurance for middle distance, I don't know about long distance. I think that you need speed to improve your technique, but also you need to swim long distance to get used to that "long" stroke, the kick is differet (5k), the breathing is different... if you want to swim mostly LD. I swim mostly middle distance races 400/800 free, but now I decided to focus more on speed training, so I have been trainning lots of 50s/25s with long rest for the past 3 months, Last week I timed my 400 free and I was just 2 sec off my best time, my 50 free from a push got almost 2 sec faster, so this is my direction for the next months.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 14:37:57 GMT

Absolutely, for as a kayak escort, sprinters have no trouble taking on the surf and strong currents. Kayak escort?? I've seen these on only one FINA World Cup venue (all other venues would use motor boats). Are you located in Atlantic City? ** edit ** And in one race (which I didn't do), about two thirds (700 out over 1000) swimmers were yanked. So in a race that takes me 2 1/2 hours to finish, which I normally can do in just a little over an hour, you bet my technique will be shot Ok. We're probably not in a World Cup Event here. In Atlantic City there's this race (I think it's called Marathon around the Island) that starts off in the Ocean and finishes in some backward rivers (22.5 miles I think). Funny enough, one year, there was a spot that was so rough to swim, that the swimmers were allowed to be towed by their coaches (in the kayak) over a 100m stretch. Otherwise, every one would swim backward ;-) (that was under a big bridge prior entering the river portion, for those who are familiar with this venue)

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:31:11 GMT

My thought on this is: if you know what an efficient stroke feels like, you will also know when it is not: usually when the waves and currents mess with your stroke. Assuming you're not dealing with very isolated & rogue conditions, a well-aware swimmer should have ample time to adjust their technique to make it as efficient as possible given the conditions. You got it right Muppet, for I'm just relating my experiences as a swimmer and my observations as an ESCORT on a kayak. When the current and tide are working against you, then an adjustment has got to be made. If not, then you're not going to make it, and have to be picked up. There have been races, where it has taken me more than twice the normal time to finish. And in one race (which I didn't do), about two thirds (700 out over 1000) swimmers were yanked. So in a race that takes me 2 1/2 hours to finish, which I normally can do in just a little over an hour, you bet my technique will be shot. But the main thing is to have fun, laugh, and wonder about what happened to my technique that I worked so hard on in the pool after the race?:bed:

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:11:35 GMT

One thing that occurred to me which may not be helped enough by short distance speed practice: breathing. I have the impression that breathing is more of a factor in long distance and OW water than in short, fast pool swimming. Also, my own experience is that oftentimes exhaustion is caused by improper breathing. What are your experiences? Any more comments appreciated. being able to breathe on both sides is an important skill for open water swimming for many reasons, but it is also important to practice swimming with a less frequent breathing pattern once in a while; that way when you find yourself swimming the moguls you can breathe when opportunity presents itself instead of swimming with your head up.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:59:39 GMT

Does short distance speed training take care of the breathing skill in long distance/OW? Am I right to say improper breathing is a major cause for premature fatigue?:confused: Thanks in advance for any comments on this! :) Sure, in between strokes, usually on the opposite side of the chop, and occasionally some Valsalva spurts thrown in to catch waves or see where I'm going.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:43:30 GMT

Someone would like to comment on the breathing issue I asked above (#30)? :rolleyes: Sure, in between strokes, usually on the opposite side of the chop, and occasionally some Valsalva spurts thrown in to catch waves or see where I'm going.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

jim thornton — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:45:51 GMT

A few references: www.nytimes.com/.../03Fitness.html sportsci.org/.../cf.htm High-intensity intermittent training is a form of interval training consisting of short bouts of all-out activity separated by rest periods of between 20 s and 5 min. It is a low-volume strategy for producing gains in aerobic power and endurance normally associated with longer training bouts. Endurance athletes should gradually phase in bouts of high-intensity intermittent training in the build-up to competitions Reprint pdf · Reprint doc · Help For an athlete to compete successfully in an endurance event, a maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max) of at least 70 ml.kg-1.min-1 is a minimum requirement (Hawley et al., 1997). While athletes employ a variety of training strategies to increase VO2max, recent research suggests that a form of interval training known as high-intensity intermittent training leads to rapid improvements in VO2max and endurance performance.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 07:35:42 GMT

Someone would like to comment on the breathing issue I asked above (#30)? :rolleyes:

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Muppet — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:45:17 GMT

Forget technique, for out in the ocean, you just throw your arms out there and see what works, for all that efficient stroke stuff means nothing when you're getting banged up in the surf. I can certainly understand your point given your kayaker viewpoint, but I think you're referring to extenuating circumstances. When training for open water swims, most of us aren't going to be swimming through Perfect Storm-type waves. I won't argue that some OW events do have more wave action than others, but there are a great many that are run in fairly placid water. For that reason, why not work on perfecting your technique? My thought on this is: if you know what an efficient stroke feels like, you will also know when it is not: usually when the waves and currents mess with your stroke. Assuming you're not dealing with very isolated & rogue conditions, a well-aware swimmer should have ample time to adjust their technique to make it as efficient as possible given the conditions.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:50:24 GMT

Thanks a ton for sharing your own experiences, from kayak escort to OW races! I have no idea whether longer-than-1-hour practice would add much, but certainly wish it does not, since I don't have 2, 3 hours to swim each day ;). One thing that occurred to me which may not be helped enough by short distance speed practice: breathing. I have the impression that breathing is more of a factor in long distance and OW water than in short, fast pool swimming. Also, my own experience is that oftentimes exhaustion is caused by improper breathing. What are your experiences? Any more comments appreciated.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:41:36 GMT

Thanks for all the kind words swimmers, fortunately the ocean is big enough for all of us to swim in, even in conditions many of us are not familiar with. Call it "ridiculous," "non-sensible," and "silly," or even mis-quote me, but utilizing a lop-sided and lounging forward (on one side) style of stroke has gotten me through many of rips. Oh! And if the pool is deep enough (and they'll allow you to do it) try underwater rock running with heavy vinyl coated weights.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:46:03 GMT

-- if you have limited training time, do it at higher intensities -- distance swimmers do need to be able to "punch it" at times to deal with a variety of circumstances, most especially in OW swimming no doubt that it is useful to be able to shift into overdrive though i have never been in a situation where my life depended on it. my own experience suggests that common OW situations like rough water and aggressive thrashing packs are better handled by yielding to the offending body of water and downshifting. slowing your stroke rate down a bit and employing a near catch-up technique will do more to protect you from getting kicked in the teeth than adding to the thrashing all around............ my humble opinion........

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:27:27 GMT

An interesting thread. I don't know much about physiology, so I can't comment on those arguments. I would have thought that if you manage to reduce your short distance times by eg improving grip on water, reducing resistance this will surely translate into better long distance times. On the other hand if you improved your long distance times by the same means, this would also improve your short-distance times, so even the relationship Solar shows above is true it doesn't show which is the best way train. I can well believe though that shorter distances allow better focus on improving technique at speed.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:25:14 GMT

WARNING: ridiculous statement above Suit yourself Chaos, but I'm talking survival. I've personally pulled long distance swimmers with picture perfect strokes onto my kayak. Swimming in the surfzone, out, back and parallel to the breakers means you throw anything out there that will work. If you can swim with the perfect stroke, while at the same time being kicked, whacked, scratched and tossed around swimming in a pack, then more power to you. But I personally prefer a body surf stroke that allows me to zig and zag with the flow of the water and get me to shore with enough energy to run up the beach to the finishline. Remember, the ocean is the great equalizer, and you are not wearing fins or pfd, so swim accordingly.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:06:14 GMT

Absolutely, for as a kayak escort, sprinters have no trouble taking on the surf and strong currents. Long distance marathon swimmers do have trouble and I have to fish them out all the time. Speed practice really helps you punch out, while you'll just be marking time and swimming in place when the current is against you if you train long and slow like "marathon swimmers" do. If you're busy work-a-holic that can manage an hour of training a day, then speed practice is for you, and a one mile to 2 1/2 mile open ocean swim will be a piece of cake. Anything over an hour of practice is just garbage milage and is counter productive. Forget technique, for out in the ocean, you just throw your arms out there and see what works, for all that efficient stroke stuff means nothing when you're getting banged up in the surf. Suit yourself Chaos, but I'm talking survival. I've personally pulled long distance swimmers with picture perfect strokes onto my kayak. Swimming in the surfzone, out, back and parallel to the breakers means you throw anything out there that will work. If you can swim with the perfect stroke, while at the same time being kicked, whacked, scratched and tossed around swimming in a pack, then more power to you. But I personally prefer a body surf stroke that allows me to zig and zag with the flow of the water and get me to shore with enough energy to run up the beach to the finishline. Remember, the ocean is the great equalizer, and you are not wearing fins or pfd, so swim accordingly. In the middle of nonsensical notions like "inefficient swimming leaves you more energy" and "anything over one hour training is not just wasted but harmful," there is some value to what Clyde is saying. Not about the body-surf-stroke silliness, but: -- if you have limited training time, do it at higher intensities -- distance swimmers do need to be able to "punch it" at times to deal with a variety of circumstances, most especially in OW swimming

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 01:50:48 GMT

no doubt that it is useful to be able to shift into overdrive though i have never been in a situation where my life depended on it. my own experience suggests that common OW situations like rough water and aggressive thrashing packs are better handled by yielding to the offending body of water and downshifting. slowing your stroke rate down a bit and employing a near catch-up technique will do more to protect you from getting kicked in the teeth than adding to the thrashing all around............ my humble opinion........ It really depends on circumstances. Sometimes it is the best strategy to sprint free of the pack and then downshift. Other times, as you say, biding your time works better. Lots of great distance guys swim near-catchup for almost the entire race. But one place where speed (and a strong kick) definitely comes into play is the last part of the race.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:13:47 GMT

All the comments here are really helpful! It's comforting and encouraging to me that quite a few think short distance speed trainings do play important part in developing endurance. Thanks for the story and link to the other forum discussion about real experiences, SolarEnergy. I am going to follow the suggestion of doing short distance with very short rests. That's a great idea. As for the magic "pill", I'm afraid it will make me stupid, even if faster :shakeshead: hmmmm..... i think most distance swimmers spend most of their time doing 25/50/100/200m based training. thats what 90% of the masters workouts i do consist of. chaos, do you do the other 10% (long distance) all in OW, or some in pools?

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:13:53 GMT

and what you left out of the equation is some 100/1500 ratio to start with. Interesting here. I'm using some maths formula to establish this ratio (any distance can do). These formulas allows me to basically compute an individual fatigue decay. Over time, I found out that a good target for triathletes was a decay of 1.06. Using this "ideal" decay factor: 100m @ 1:30 is worth 26:30 over 1500 100m @ 1:25 is worth 25:00 over 1500 100m @ 1:20 is worth 23:30 "" "" 100m @ 1:15 is worth 22:05 "" "" 100m @ 1:10 is worth 20:38 "" "" So based on a fixed ratio between 100/1500 included in our "equation", we may predict an improvement of ~1:30 of the 1500 for each 5sec gain over 100 (given that the individual fatigue decay doesn't change of course). This 85-90sec improvement (over 1500) even exceeds the sum of all 5sec cut on the 100 (75sec).

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:47:12 GMT

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:20:02 GMT

chaos, do you do the other 10% (long distance) all in OW, or some in pools? depends on the time of year. BTW, 10% was just a # i pulled out of my hat. from may to sept, i probably spend 70% or more of my practice time in OW

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:14:25 GMT

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:10:45 GMT

this thread is getting good now........

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:10:44 GMT

If I only practice to improve the speed in short distance, will it help increase the endurance needed for long distance? No. But I hear there is a new pill you can take to help you with your endurance training. It's called Vitamin SuckItUp. Unfortunately, it is a terribly bitter pill and very few people are willing to take it.

RE: Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

Former Member — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:26:55 GMT

I disagree strongly with the notion that "25/50/100/200m based training" is not "endurance work," though I guess maybe that's your point? Tons of studies out there show that interval-training, with distances short relative to the target race, will improve performance in that race. How "endurancey" it is depends on the number of reps and the rest interval. Sorry, I should have specified that I meant training (by all means) to improve over these distances (50/100/200). I am somehow familiar with the notion of broken distances (aerobic intervals) as composing 90% of most swimmers' regiment. And to tell you the truth, it's a notion that the original poster explicitly mentioned and somehow got ignored until your post. (to the op) If it was your original question, then yes most 100% sure that breaking down your distances in smaller chunks is a generally accepted way of developing endurance. Say you want to do 2000 of moderate endurance pace work (purely aimed at developing endurance), you may split this thing into chunks of 50 m and still be on target. You just got to make the rest period smaller. But what I actually meant is that it is highly important for triathletes (to name these) coming from a running background (to name this) that they should first learn to swim fast, then extend the durations (much later into their season). A lot of these folks have a 1500 around 27, a 100m around 1:30. They'd better get this thing down to at least 1:15 before thinking of solely focusing on endurance development (like they sometimes do). That turns some of them into "diesel" swimmers. For me, swimming fast somehow is a certificate of stroke efficiency. Any 1500 "specialist" that doesn't have a 100 near 1:10 would probably improve faster over 1500 more by improving on the 100 first. It's primarily what I meant.