Masters Motivational Times

RE: Masters Motivational Times

trexleradam — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 11:10:39 GMT

So, in some sense, USMS is saying that for sprints, the 10th place time +15% is the same as the 5th place time +20%, and for 200+, the 10th place time +10% is the same as the 5th place time +15%. I think this is an interesting assumption, though I recognize it's not yours. What seems odd about this, if I read your post correctly, is that I'd expect 200s to be more spread out, not less. Certainly more so for distance free. Have you run any numbers on this, or is it just a formulating convenience by USMS?

RE: Masters Motivational Times

secondheart — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 12:36:04 GMT

Great programming effort, from an old retired programmer. Liked the artistic superscript touch for the older age groups.:applaud::applaud::applaud:

RE: Masters Motivational Times

mmlr38 — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 11:23:43 GMT

Very nice work Swimosaur! Thanks for working this up!

RE: Masters Motivational Times

lv2swim — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 10:21:58 GMT

Thank you Swimosaur...just what I needed something to motivate me!

RE: Masters Motivational Times

flystorms — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 08:47:59 GMT

Swimosaur - you're the hero of the day! Thanks for doing this! Love it!

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Swimosaur — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 07:19:47 GMT

So far, so good! Thanks very much! I appreciate it! Gosh, nobody asked, “Where does 4.45% come from?” In the National Qualifying Times FAQ, USMS wrote, SCY times are calculated as follows: 10th place + 15% for sprints and 10th place + 10% for events 200 yards and up … if there are no 10th place times in at least two of the previous three years, we use 5th + 20% for sprints and 5th + 15% for 200+ events. So, in some sense, USMS is saying that for sprints, the 10th place time +15% is the same as the 5th place time +20%, and for 200+, the 10th place time +10% is the same as the 5th place time +15%. That is, for sprints, 1.15 * T10 = 1.20 * T05 T10 = (1.20/1.15) * T05 T10 = 1.0435 * T05 and for 200+, 1.10 * T10 = 1.15 * T05 T10 = (1.15/1.10) * T05 T10 = 1.0455 * T05 and 1.0445 (that is, 4.45%) is midway between 1.0435 and 1.0455. That’s why when methods C and D are used, Columns AA and AAA are a little off from the NQTs.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Former Member — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 06:06:33 GMT

I made the mistake of looking at the 2014 SCM times. I found that I can make the B time for 75-79 men in the 50 free as I’m 58 this make it clear that I’m a amazing inefficient swimmer.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

trexleradam — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 05:53:13 GMT

Thanks Swimosaur. I find these really useful and I appreciate your work. I've already told people about them, too.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

jpetyk — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 01:47:13 GMT

Draft 2014 Masters Motivational Times Column X. I like to think of Column X as “the moral equivalent of a Top Ten time”. Of course, in any given year, the 10th place time will be faster or slower by some amount than the average of the three previous years, so of course, Column X is not an actual Top Ten time. Too bad, huh? You can also think of it as “the time I need to hit to have about a 50/50 chance.” Discuss. I am looking for my 1st top ten time(s) this year, and Column X hits right where I thought I should be. Let's hope I can swim that fast. Thanks for putting this together. I think you did a great job! :chug:

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Karl_S — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 10:58:50 GMT

Draft 2014 Masters Motivational Times ... Discuss. Many thanks. These are a lot of fun and not nearly as discouraging as I had expected!

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 10:34:34 GMT

Discuss. :applaud: :bow: :cheerleader: :chug: :wine: :groovy: :angel: :smooch:

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Swimosaur — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 10:08:28 GMT

Draft 2014 Masters Motivational Times Chris Stevenson wrote, Someone else could take it up if s/he chooses. Then Swimosaur (foolishly) wrote, I think I can do this. pmccoy insightfully and correctly wrote (including some other key points), ... it kind of feels like a time sink to me. and Karl_S very usefully wrote (among other very useful points), ... using the exact same base time as the USMS NQTs would be desirable, because AA (or AAA) would then correspond exactly to NQT. Here they are: 8575 8576 8577 I labelled these versions draft in case they need changes. Notes: Motivational times (MTs) are calculated from the base time given in Column X. The algorithm for calculating the base time is similar, but not identical to, the method USMS uses to calculate national qualifying times (NQTs) for the annual SCY national championships. Most of the time, Column X is (A) the average of the three previous year’s 10th place times. However, if there are fewer than three 10th place times over the three previous years, we use, in order, (B) average of two 10th place times over the three previous years. If there are fewer than two 10th place times, (C) average of three 5th place times + 4.45%. If there are fewer than three, (D) average of two 5th place times + 4.45%. If there are fewer than two, (E) No Time (NT). If one of the alternatives B-D is used, it’s indicated by a superscript. The rest of the columns are proportional to Column X as follows, AAAA = X + 5% AAA = X + 10% AA = X + 15% A = X + 20% BB = X + 30% B = X + 40% For MTs, the same algorithm is used for all three courses, SCY, LCM, and SCM. Relationship to NQTs. For SCY, as long as Column X is calculated using method A, B, or E, Columns AA and AAA should be exactly the NQTs for sprints and 200+ events respectively. There will be some small differences for methods C and D. For LCM, the MTs should be different from the NQTs in all cases, albeit by a small amount. USMS does not publish NQTs for SCM or for age groups 85+. Column X. I like to think of Column X as “the moral equivalent of a Top Ten time”. Of course, in any given year, the 10th place time will be faster or slower by some amount than the average of the three previous years, so of course, Column X is not an actual Top Ten time. Too bad, huh? You can also think of it as “the time I need to hit to have about a 50/50 chance.” Discuss.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Former Member — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 14:29:18 GMT

Whether kids or adults, one thing that I'd always advocate, and the research supports, is the use of self-referenced goals. That is - whether I'm fast compared to others or not, what can I do to become faster? That said, I also think the opposite of Sunruh - that kids should be actively discouraged from using this sort of thing as their athletic and other identities are still being formed, while as adults the horse has already bolted!

RE: Masters Motivational Times

__steve__ — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:19:13 GMT

Motivational times provide me with motivation to try and swim faster. I don't know if it would provide the same motivation or not if I were 11.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

tpost2 — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:59:31 GMT

I think I can do this. I think I can automate it completely (using javascript, my weapon of choice). Wow - that would be awesome! Who knew it was so complicated? for what it's worth, I obviously agree with the folks that find these things useful. I've been using the original for a few years to measure my progress and it gives me concrete goals. Might sound silly, but every time I get a new best time, I can't wait to get home and see if I made it to another step. This also motivates me to work harder in practice (and I need all the motivation I can get because, as someone noted above, we're adults now and if we would prefer to sleep in or get out of the pool early or whatever, we can!). I haven't heard anyone here say it would demotivate them.. just some expressing vague concerns that it *might* demotivate someone. By that logic, we shouldn't be posting top 10 times or yearly rankings - or are there concerns about these things, too?

RE: Masters Motivational Times

secondheart — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 05:15:02 GMT

I also have this in spreadsheet form. It is slightly too large to upload to these forums (seriously, a 400K limit?) but here is a link that I think should work to download it to your computer (there are no macros in the file): dl.dropboxusercontent.com/.../RatingCalculator.xlsx Also more user effort but there are some examples already loaded. The 2nd sheet (Swim Converter) is a way to compare events directly. Or even to account for the effects of aging on a given event; for example if you haven't swum an event in four years and want a comparable time for a meet entry. Note that I added fitted curves from a more recent database of records (2012) as an option for conversions/ratings so if you use those fits you'll get different results from the web page. More generally, responses on this page mostly match the reactions of the R&T committee towards the concept: some liked it, some indifferent. But some members thought it might discourage people if publicized anything like USA-S does with their standards. Thanks for the additional information. It's ashame that your system is not used for the NQTs, it would be more equitable than the current system. For example - Men 25-29 1500 23:56 (your rating 68.6), 50 br. 35.92 (rating 79.3), Men 60-64 1500 23:25 (rating 79.7), 50 br. 42.19 (rating 80.8). Even a history major would have to be oblivious to the fact that the men's 1500 25-29 is an obvious outlier. Your system reveals this error. " But some members thought it might discourage people if publicized anything like USA-S does with their standards. " :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 04:41:06 GMT

FYI - I believe Stevenson created this rating calculator www.vaswim.org/.../rcalc.cgi which is a little more user effort but is more detail (rating 2 decimal accuracy ) I find it useful in comparing events. I also have this in spreadsheet form. It is slightly too large to upload to these forums (seriously, a 400K limit?) but here is a link that I think should work to download it to your computer (there are no macros in the file): dl.dropboxusercontent.com/.../RatingCalculator.xlsx Also more user effort but there are some examples already loaded. The 2nd sheet (Swim Converter) is a way to compare events directly. Or even to account for the effects of aging on a given event; for example if you haven't swum an event in four years and want a comparable time for a meet entry. Note that I added fitted curves from a more recent database of records (2012) as an option for conversions/ratings so if you use those fits you'll get different results from the web page. More generally, responses on this page mostly match the reactions of the R&T committee towards the concept: some liked it, some indifferent. But some members thought it might discourage people if publicized anything like USA-S does with their standards.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Former Member — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:45:48 GMT

one of my biggest motivations is my HDL and triglycerides. maybe because i never stopped eating like i did when i was 18. i'm on a seefood diet. i see food i eat it what diet? steve I approve of this message. One of the biggest benefits of vigorous exercise as an adult is being able to continue recreational eating.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:39:54 GMT

I think I can do this. :cheerleader: Does anyone know what that method is? I think it's something like, "AAAA = three year average of 10th place time plus 10% for each category", but that could be wrong. Before I start, I'd like to know that I'm calculating the right thing. Unfortunately, I think sjstuart has gone AWOL. I sent him a PM once about writing another chart; however, he never got around to doing it. I haven't seen him on the Forums in a long time.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Elaine Krugman — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:33:58 GMT

we dont need any such thing in masters. I may not need it; however, the chart comes in handy when I tackle a new event or one I don't often swim. The chart helps me compare how I am doing in that particular event compared to my core events, and it gives me goals to shoot for. It also helps me compare how I am doing in non-core events compared to each other, such as my 400 IM compared to my (extremely slow) 200 fly. Thanks to the chart, I have learned which events I was better in that I thought- and events that, well, never mind that negativity! :afraid:

RE: Masters Motivational Times

Swimosaur — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:36:41 GMT

Someone else could take it up if s/he chooses. I think I can do this. I think I can automate it completely (using javascript, my weapon of choice). I have a question. OP wrote, ... Eventually I decided to create my own masters' motivational time standards, using the same method that is used for the kids. Does anyone know what that method is? I think it's something like, "AAAA = three year average of 10th place time plus 10% for each category", but that could be wrong. Before I start, I'd like to know that I'm calculating the right thing.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

sunruh — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:55:59 GMT

I still remember the patches and stars that kids in my area wore on their sweats to indicate A/AA times that they've achieved (five stars total, one for each stroke + IM, different color stars for A and AA times). my mom still has my warmup top that she sewed all of the AA, then AAA and then AAAA (quad A) patches on from when i was 10. i think my top was as much patch as it was real material. oh the great memories. we dont need any such thing in masters. heck if you dont like the workout you change it. if you dont like the intervaul, you change it. heck if the water it too cold .... let's go to starbucks! one of my biggest motivations is my HDL and triglycerides. maybe because i never stopped eating like i did when i was 18. i'm on a seefood diet. i see food i eat it what diet? steve

RE: Masters Motivational Times

knelson — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:41:24 GMT

i think of it as a kids thing. we arent kids any more...thats why its called masters. :D It's a kids thing for you because you achieved all those standards when you were a kid. Lots of people in masters did not. Heck, many never swam competitively when they were kids. For them it's not a "been there, done that" like it is to those of us who've been in the sport forever!

RE: Masters Motivational Times

secondheart — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:06:33 GMT

I may not need it; however, the chart comes in handy when I tackle a new event or one I don't often swim. The chart helps me compare how I am doing in that particular event compared to my core events, and it gives me goals to shoot for. It also helps me compare how I am doing in non-core events compared to each other, such as my 400 IM compared to my (extremely slow) 200 fly. Thanks to the chart, I have learned which events I was better in that I thought- and events that, well, never mind that negativity! :afraid:FYI - I believe Stevenson created this rating calculator www.vaswim.org/.../rcalc.cgi which is a little more user effort but is more detail (rating 2 decimal accuracy ) I find it useful in comparing events.

RE: Masters Motivational Times

mmlr38 — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 04:54:15 GMT

i think of it as a kids thing. we arent kids any more...thats why its called masters. :D Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours, sunruh. But in this case I agree with Kirk that everyone is motivated in different ways. And I can certainly see value in giving people motivational times to strive for in order "To encourage and promote improved physical fitness and health in adults" which is the #1 objective listed for US Masters Swimming on page 5 in this document: www.usms.org/.../building.pdf