Kicking a 2 Fly?

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Former Member — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:11:35 GMT

People in Perth were disqualified for kicking in a layout position based on the FINA wording of the rule which is: SW 8.2 Both arms shall be brought forward together over the water and brought backward simultaneously through-out the race, subject to SW 8.5. The phrase "through-out the race, subject to SW 8.5" can be interpreted to mean that you must have a continuous arm action, except for the underwater section on the start and turn. This would be a good one to pose to the Rules Chair. The Canadian rules explicitly forbid kicking in a layout position without an arm action. This was based on the understanding that this was the FINA interpretation. The most interesting aspect of this issue occurs in the oldest age groups as many in these age groups cannot swim fly with a legal arm action for the entire distance but can complete the races kicking. When you get to this stage kicking may in fact be faster than swimming. In this case someone who can't actually swim butterfly as it is normally swum could potentially get the win or even hold the world record.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

orca1946 — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:39:55 GMT

Just to do it ?? OK , yes I read it as one arm pull per length & kick forever !

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Former Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:34:59 GMT

I was wondering how this meet went? Did you swim this all kicking 200 fly finally?

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Betsy — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:58:27 GMT

I've seen people try to do this. The biggest challenge is not letting your hands separate when you breathe. The stroke judges will look for any sculling motion.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Redbird Alum — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:10:50 GMT

Fort - The real benefit of the underwater dolphin is in the streamlining, better kick (both up and down) and reduced resistance underwater. If you read the rule, once you come to the surface in each length, you have to remain on the surface and on the *** until you reach the wall. I don't know about others, but my dolphin on the surface is no where near as clean and easy as that underwater, nor as fast. You may want to think about this before you punish yourself in a meet. Just my :2cents:

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

The Fortress — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 02:48:43 GMT

I was wondering how this meet went? Did you swim this all kicking 200 fly finally? No, I decided not to swim the Jan. Open meet since my kid wasn't swimming in it. Not sure now when I'll get another chance to try a 2 fly as my meet cards are filled up with other events through Nats. And I'm definitely not trying this long course! This may be my new event next year. Still intrigued.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Former Member — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:23:55 GMT

Apparently Wookie has a very narrowly-defined sweet spot: longer than 50, shorter than 200. The 200 fly distinguishes the swimmer from the noodler. It's no wonder Fort wants to "swim" it. I don't like 50's or the distance events. I don't mind doing the 400/500 every once and awhile but I do prefer 100-200 back/free. In my previous life as a swimmer...high school and college, I could do the 200 fly pretty well. Don't have that desire or ability anymore.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Former Member — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:35:51 GMT

This from the person who thinks 50s should be eliminated from swimming? :afraid: Yes, eliminate 50's and 1000/1500/1650's. I am an equal opporunity offender

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

knelson — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:50:20 GMT

It's definitely legal as long as you surface by 15 meters off each wall. I remember there was a University of Washington swimmer a few years back who had a shoulder problem so dolphin kicked a 100 back at a dual meet. I don't think she won, but she definitely scored points. I seem to recall she broke one minute, too.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Former Member — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:48:39 GMT

Why the hell would you want to swim a 200 fly? That is like wanting to swim the 1500 or any ow race? Why would you want to put yourself through that much agony

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

BillS — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:10:56 GMT

Where are you quoting the rule from? Link please. Thanks. Rules are right here on the USMS site, under the Articles & Publications tab: http://www.usms.org/rules/

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:04:01 GMT

This from the person who thinks 50s should be eliminated from swimming? :afraid: Apparently Wookie has a very narrowly-defined sweet spot: longer than 50, shorter than 200. The 200 fly distinguishes the swimmer from the noodler. It's no wonder Fort wants to "swim" it.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

ourswimmer — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:31:47 GMT

I know kicking the whole thing would be slower. If just kicking the 200 "fly" is not a strategy for going faster than you would swimming fly, then you could do it just as well during a 200 "free." Also, that strategy might be even more mortifying to your daughter.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

The Fortress — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:23:04 GMT

Why would you want to do this? Just curious. IMHO, it would not be faster than someone swimming it, as they are not only kicking but pulling also. I will admit I kick as much of a 200 fly underwater in a streamline, but I would never kick on the surface; too slow. Kicking 10m is not faster than swimming 10m per lap. :2cents: As I get older, I apparently contemplate odd things to amuse myself. I know kicking the whole thing would be slower. But I can't see swimming 8 lengths of fly. 4 is hard enough. I like Geek's idea of kicking UW + one stroke and kick to the wall. Chaos, I would definitely enter monofin competitions if there were any to be had. In this country.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

The Fortress — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:20:40 GMT

Why the hell would you want to swim a 200 fly? That is like wanting to swim the 1500 or any ow race? Why would you want to put yourself through that much agony This from the person who thinks 50s should be eliminated from swimming? :afraid:

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

That Guy — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:13:03 GMT

Why would you want to do this? I'm guessing split request. Race the first 50 or 100, then noodle the rest (within the rules). For what it's worth, taking extra kicks per stroke is how some people have described completing swims such as 1500/1650 fly. When I did a 500 fly to join the Butternuts, I probably should have done that, but I didn't, so for the last 200 of the 500, I was hanging on each turn for a few seconds, trying to get my pulse rate under control.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

pwolf66 — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:50:59 GMT

That sounds like a plan.15 M underwater to show your daughter she is wrong,kick on the surface and rest at the wall to make her wish she didn't know you.Good times all around. :applaud: :cheerleader: :applaud: :cheerleader: :applaud: :cheerleader:

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Allen Stark — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:44:25 GMT

She just told me there was "no way" I could SDK to the 15 meter mark every length. Probably true. But when someone taunts you like that ... Makes me think about just kicking it. I could always coffee break on the turns and do 8 mini shooters. That sounds like a plan.15 M underwater to show your daughter she is wrong,kick on the surface and rest at the wall to make her wish she didn't know you.Good times all around.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

aquageek — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:28:55 GMT

As I read the rules there is nothing that requires a pull with a kick. Let's assume you make it 12-14 yards for each turn, then a pull out stroke, that easily puts you at 18-20 yards. As long as you kick to the wall and two hand touch it should be completely legal. If you really extended your strokes and did one pull per kick it is easily conceivable you could only take 24 strokes for the whole race, however. The cumulative impact of those u/w's will be rough though. I suggest Dolphina.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

smontanaro — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 02:51:29 GMT

I remember there was a University of Washington swimmer a few years back who had a shoulder problem so dolphin kicked a 100 back at a dual meet. If I was ever inclined to swim anything containing fly other than perhaps a 100IM this would be my rationale. Preserve the shoulders at all costs. I (almost) never swim any fly in practice. Whacking a lane line or another swimmer's arm basically wrecks my shoulder for several days. On occasion if I can swim down the center of the lane without potential interference I will swim a 25. I should also admit that I was never a competitive swimmer in my younger days, so good fly technique has really never been a part of my bag of tricks. There is almost certainly a self-inflicted-pain component in the way I "swim" fly. S

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Karen Duggan — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 01:54:36 GMT

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Former Member — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:16:42 GMT

fort, i think this is what you're looking for: en.wikipedia.org/.../Finswimming (no need to reinvent the wheel... unless to mortify one's offspring, in which case i stand firmly behind your endeavor)

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Former Member — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:20:25 GMT

From the beginning of the first arm pull, the body shall be kept on the ***. Both arms must be brought forward over the water and pulled back simultaneously.In legal speak, the rule does not say that one must take continuous strokes after coming to the surface. You just have to remain on your chest. The way this reads, you could in theory come out of the 15 meters with a stroke...hold your hands together up front and kick on your stomach (for an unmeasured distance) while heading into the wall for a two handed touch. Granted the rule probably never took into account that someone might try this. But since there's no language to say otherwise, it could be perfectly legal.

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

Former Member — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:29:22 GMT

Is it legal to keep your hands in a streamline position and just dolphin kick for a 200 fly (as long as you're not underwater more than 15 meters)? trouble maker....

RE: Kicking a 2 Fly?

The Fortress — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:56:30 GMT

I say do it to mortify your kid :D She just told me there was "no way" I could SDK to the 15 meter mark every length. Probably true. But when someone taunts you like that ... Makes me think about just kicking it. I could always coffee break on the turns and do 8 mini shooters.