Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:51:22 GMT

The problem with that is that the points are based on all USA-S swimming so the ratings top out at 18 years of age. So 18 or 40 is the same rating. So? I am using the points to compare one event to another. Entering an age of 8 works just as well as 32, what matters is that I use the same age for all my comparisons. The number by itself is rather meaningless to me.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:48:53 GMT

The next step is to realize that breaststroke is the greatest test of a swimmers mettle. So if you can sprint a fast 50/100 ***, welcome to the ranks of swimmings elite. Ignore your teammates who say otherwise; it's just jealousy. Ah, what a nice way to start the day...

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:45:03 GMT

If my 25M push speed is almost twice that for my 500M (barely over 1 meter/sec), does that mean I might be better at sprinting events? My form still seems to fall apart after about 300M. Steve, You lack the endurance to really say. When you are comfortable swimming 2-3k workouts, it will be a better time to compare. You need to pace yourself so your stroke doesn't fall apart during the 500M. Tracking your 500M times is a great way to gauge your improvements. It is short enough that you can regularly include it in a workout, but long enough that it will reflect endurance and stroke improvements. If you are already comfortable swimming 3k workouts, and your 25 time is a 12.5 and your 500 time is an 8:20, then yes, that would indicate you are probably more of a sprinter than a distance person. But the comparison is not as straight forward as 1m/s

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:50:59 GMT

12.5 I wish, more like 13.5 seconds for a 25 m push. Thanks for the suggestion to do 500's, I just have to not go out so hard at first. Some people actually like to negative split 500s, aka get faster each 100. It is not my preference, but it might be a good strategy for you until you are more comfortable with the distance and develop a more personalized one.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:48:49 GMT

Well, since the vast majority of my workouts are with a USMS team, they are closer to that than to the USAS group I occasionally work out with. But you did make me curious, so I used my FLOG entries to calculate that in the 108 days since I started swimming after summer nationals, I have averaged a shade under 3800y per workout, and swam an average of 5.25 days per week. Yardage/volume doesn't tell the whole story, but I don't think those numbers are very far outside the norm for masters swimmers. Fair enough, if you want to discount the fact that your workouts are predominately fly/back at a sub 1:20/100 pace and Mark probably isn't your typical USMS coach. I admit I was wrong, and Chris Stevenson trains more like a master than an age grouper. Your yardage is closer to the typical USMS practice than it is to the typical USAS practice and you don't swim doubles.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

pwolf66 — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 12:37:51 GMT

brilliant..... though i would add: if you hate swimming; you might be a sprinter. Change that to: If you hate training, you might be a sprinter.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

pwolf66 — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 12:32:58 GMT

Patrick reminded me of something, my stellar 1500 must make me cool and intellectually vibrant. Also, he reminded me of the power point calculator. www.usaswimming.org/.../DesktopDefault.aspx This won't be of much use to you until you have times to put into it, but it is a nice way to compare how good you are at different strokes and distances, since you are scored compared to a database of USA swimming times. For example, comparing my times, my 50 free is my best event and my worst event is the 200 back (followed closely by the 1500). My sprint frees are much stronger than my backs. It also makes it easy to chart your progress across seasons, since the SCM/LCM/SCY all get converted into a number. The problem with that is that the points are based on all USA-S swimming so the ratings top out at 18 years of age. So 18 or 40 is the same rating.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

That Guy — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 10:36:23 GMT

I'm going to have to agree with Chris and ehoch. Except for Chris claiming that mid distance folks are "swimming gods." That seemed rather diva-ish. I would substitute the words "tools who always follow the written workout without complaint." I think Chris and I are on the same page... but as for following workouts without complaint: 1. Complaining is annoying, so not complaining is a good thing. 2. I have no workout to follow! True story from Wednesday: a woman who often swims at the gym around the same time of morning that I do asked me if I was about to start a set. I had just finished my warmup so I said "yes, I'm about to start my main set." She wanted to swim along with me so she said "what are we doing?" Me: "Ummmmmmmm... ok, I'm going to do 50 flys on 1:15." Her: "How many are we doing?" Me: "I haven't decided yet!" After the first two I let her know that the number was 8... I descended from 200 fly race pace to 100 fly race pace... she swam freestyle... it all turned out fine in the end even though nothing was planned out.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:58:21 GMT

Except for Chris claiming that mid distance folks are "swimming gods." That seemed rather diva-ish. I would substitute the words "tools who always follow the written workout without complaint." Okay, I laughed out loud at that one. I have tried to branch out into middle and long distance but I think I will always be a sprinter at heart...

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

__steve__ — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:38:45 GMT

If you are already comfortable swimming 3k workouts, and your 25 time is a 12.5 and your 500 time is an 8:20, then yes, 12.5 I wish, more like 13.5 seconds for a 25 m push. Thanks for the suggestion to do 500's, I just have to not go out so hard at first.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:27:24 GMT

Thanks for this link, it is helpful. I found that my current times plugged into the USAS calculator all gave me the same point ranking: 1. Sorry, that is a real problem with the power points :(

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:09:12 GMT

For me, since my level of training is closer to USMS than USAS, I'd probably rather use a masters-based rating system. Really? You would rather use that tool? Didn't some crackpot chemist come up with it? :) Your training is nothing like the typical USMS person. I have vetted your tool, it still says my 50 is better than my 1500, and it has the benefit of taking a much larger range of times and spitting out a number > 1.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:42:26 GMT

The dirty little secret of swimming and life is this: Deep down, everyone wants to be a sprinter. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to convince themselves so they can sleep better at night. The guy with the honda civic may brag he can go 600 miles on a tank, but he secretly envies the guy with the 400 hp corvette. The next step is to realize that breaststroke is the greatest test of a swimmers mettle. So if you can sprint a fast 50/100 ***, welcome to the ranks of swimmings elite. Ignore your teammates who say otherwise; it's just jealousy. (Disclaimer: I can't swim a fast 500 to save my life, so I may be biased. But seriously, be a sprinter. All the cool kids are doing it....) Nope...not true. I have no desire to be a sprinter...never want/wanted to be a sprinter. I am very happy being a mid-distance swimmer of 200's. I like SUV's. I hate small cars and don't give one rat's butt about little fast cars unless a truck like bigfoot is crushing them. You may think everyone wants to be a sprinter but you are wrong. I think 50's are absolutely pointless. Wish they would do away with them.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 06:35:51 GMT

I would like to be a "distance" swimmer. I would like to be a triathlete (but I don't like running and biking). I do the 3000K, 1 mile, and 1 hour postal, and I do not always dread them. I enjoy how I feel afterwards, when the shakes wear off. I know I am NOT a distance swimmer, when I drop f-bombs in my head when coach tells us our next set will be something painful (where painful = going moderately fast to fast for 2000+ yards). I also know I am not an IM-er when we have to do IM sets for the same reasons. For some reason though, I keep coming back to swim, 3-5 times a week, hoping for some fun, sprint sets.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 06:28:02 GMT

What age do you use? I'd be inclined to choose something like 20/21 to compare myself with my fastest-ever-age. Yes, and you are a glutton for punishment. I don't need to know how many points away from Phelps I am in the 200. 18+ are all grouped together, but I would use 8 if I were putting in some of my stroke times, IM times or distance times, so I could get a 2 digit number back.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 04:30:09 GMT

Your training is nothing like the typical USMS person. Well, since the vast majority of my workouts are with a USMS team, they are closer to that than to the USAS group I occasionally work out with. But you did make me curious, so I used my FLOG entries to calculate that in the 108 days since I started swimming after summer nationals, I have averaged a shade under 3800y per workout, and swam an average of 5.25 days per week. Yardage/volume doesn't tell the whole story, but I don't think those numbers are very far outside the norm for masters swimmers.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

jeffsab — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:22:03 GMT

The "problem" -- if you want to call it that -- is that their scoring system is skewed to USA-swimming standards and they train a lot more than the typical masters swimmer. Based on my competitiveness at USA-S meets I am better at the shorter races, while compared to masters I am better at longer races. For me, since my level of training is closer to USMS than USAS, I'd probably rather use a masters-based rating system. Thanks for this link, it is helpful. I found that my current times plugged into the USAS calculator all gave me the same point ranking: 1.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 02:36:10 GMT

So? I am using the points to compare one event to another. Entering an age of 8 works just as well as 32, what matters is that I use the same age for all my comparisons. The number by itself is rather meaningless to me. The "problem" -- if you want to call it that -- is that their scoring system is skewed to USA-swimming standards and they train a lot more than the typical masters swimmer. Based on my competitiveness at USA-S meets I am better at the shorter races, while compared to masters I am better at longer races. For me, since my level of training is closer to USMS than USAS, I'd probably rather use a masters-based rating system. I seem to remember in Dara Torres' book "Age is Just a Number" that she mentioned some research that seemed to show that one's sprinting ability seemed to regress more slowly with age than distance swimming. But it may be an affect of having less time to train (or being more prone to injuries if one tries to train with the same volume).

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 01:12:47 GMT

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:47:03 GMT

Just provide me with few times for the same stroke and I'll tell you. There's some robust formula that allows to get an individual sprint/distance index (which I can not reveal at this time, but certainly later I will). Ideally, I'd need two points sufficiently far apart (e.g. PB over 50m and PB over 400 or 800m).

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:38:54 GMT

For getting back in shape, train middle distance or distance. It is quicker to build endurance than speed and volume burns more calories, so the combination of those two should provide the most rewarding return to swimming. You should see steady improvement. As for what you are suited too, I could make all kinds of derogatory comments about how boring distances swimmers are, and how lazy sprinters are, and how awesome middle distance swimmers are, but I won't. Instead, just don't worry about it. You need an aerobic base to train seriously for any of them, and while you are building that base you will figure out what you like to swim and what you like to swim will probably be influenced by what you are good at. If it is not, who cares, this is masters, you enjoyment comes first and you can always change your mind.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:25:53 GMT

( But seriously, be a sprinter. All the cool kids are doing it....) archie and jughead are considered "cool" in their own little world. (just sayin')

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Former Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:10:57 GMT

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 12:16:11 GMT

How do you determine whether you would be better off training and racing sprints or distance events? You need an aerobic base to train seriously for any of them, and while you are building that base you will figure out what you like to swim and what you like to swim will probably be influenced by what you are good at. If it is not, who cares, this is masters, you enjoyment comes first and you can always change your mind. The last year I've had a lot of fun just setting a goal to swim every event at least once in a meet. The variety is great and it helps to ensure you don't get into a rut in training or practice. In high school & college, I was sadistically focused on distance only (where, FYI, Qbrain, ALL the cool intellectually vibrant people hang out). I've had loads of fun, though, with sprint events as a Masters' swimmer. As you experiment with events, you'll find ones to focus more on and you also might find fun focusing on different events different seasons/years/age groups. The key is to make Masters fun.

RE: Suited for sprint or distance - how to tell?

TRYM_Swimmer — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:56:46 GMT

Didn't Doc Councilman do some research on the relationship of red and white blood cell counts to sprinters and distance swimmers?