The Fin Factor

RE: The Fin Factor

Former Member — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:24:23 GMT

I have weak ankles too, though in my case it is BECAUSE of the flexibility. I would think fins would actually compensate for inflexible ankles. But you seem to have a strong kick anyway so they can't be that bad. Some fins are stiffer than others too so it really depends. I think I have the TYR fins (green & black) and they were really stiff when I first got them. They still are compared to alot of fins but I'm used to them now. I don't do a ton of kicking with fins anyway.

RE: The Fin Factor

elise526 — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:30:15 GMT

The whole stack? Yikes! You might be onto something with the core & hip explanation. I have weak ankles too, though in my case it is BECAUSE of the flexibility. I would think fins would actually compensate for inflexible ankles. But you seem to have a strong kick anyway so they can't be that bad. Would really like to get the kick without fins even stronger. Chris, do you think cycling has given you a strong kick? I used to find that in the fall months following a summer of consistent cycling, my kick felt really strong. Kind of wierd that I do have inflexible ankles also. I was having some lower back issues a couple of years ago and at the urging of a good friend, went to see a guy in Huntsville that tests for muscular imbalances. He took about 2 hours to run a bunch of tests. On one ankle test, I tested very poor while on ankle inversion and exversion, I tested excellent. Maybe I should get him to test me again. Yeah, the hip adductor/hip abductor machine thing is kind of wild. It is the one and only thing I can beat the guys on in the weight room. Kind of wish I had taken up competitive cycling in my early twenties (rather than waiting until my mid-thirties to do it for triathlons), so I could have put this good strength to use. I kind of curious to see what a few months of some calf raises might do for my fins sets. I'm hopeful

RE: The Fin Factor

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:40:04 GMT

Chris, do you think cycling has given you a strong kick? On the whole, probably not. Maybe it helps with conditioning and endurance, but by far the thing that helps me the most is doing hard kick sets. I don't notice any correlation between the amt of cycling I do and my performance on kick sets. When I do cycling it is b/c I like it and to do something different, not really because I think it helps swimming a lot. (It probably helps some, but I don't know that the time couldn't have been better used in the water or in the weight room.)

RE: The Fin Factor

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:49:20 GMT

Lots of great analysis here and it gives me much to think about. I do have incredibly weak ankles, so I do wonder if that might not be a factor. In fact, a podiatrist noted that in order to walk, my ankles are so weak that I've had to make up for it in my hip adductor/abductor area. Not only are my ankles weak, they are not very flexible. Another thing, a friend mentioned that when I kick, perhaps I use my core and hip abductors/adductors more than most. Could the problem be that I am overly dependent on core and hip adductor/abductor muscles for my kick and thus the fins don't make a big difference? My one rep max on the hip adductor machine is the entire stack, so I'm thinking the bizarre strength must come from overcompensation. Gee, I wish some of it would pan out on breaststroke, but no such luck. Great for cycling - maybe I should go back to that! The whole stack? Yikes! You might be onto something with the core & hip explanation. I have weak ankles too, though in my case it is BECAUSE of the flexibility. I would think fins would actually compensate for inflexible ankles. But you seem to have a strong kick anyway so they can't be that bad.

RE: The Fin Factor

Former Member — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:27:22 GMT

for me fins and paddles seem to increase the muscle load while decreasing the aerobic cost of swimming. someone with average v02 but very good strength(male/female, sprinter/distance?) should get more benefit from this shift. fins seem to forgive problems like bad body position so they should really help a strong swimmer with technique issues. also, fin kicking a lot does not seem to benefit naked kicking and vice-versa so you should be better at the one you do more of. :2cents:

RE: The Fin Factor

Former Member — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:23:02 GMT

Here is my theory right now. You have very flexible ankles, and your propulsive force is from the foot, with very little benefit from the shin, and almost no knee bend. When you put fins on, you maintain the same style, and your propulsive force is limited by your ankle as the fulcrum instead of your knee. This theory turns out to be true for me. I can kick a 50m under 40sec but I hate Fins so much that I'd basically skip a set if forced to use them. This piece of gear is irrelevant for me and above all, they hurt my ankles big time.

RE: The Fin Factor

Former Member — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:16:05 GMT

One exercise I find that not only helps my core but my kicking is the Captain Chair Leg Lifts. Its that piece of equipment that you stand in, then hang, with your elbows & forearms on pad while gripping hand grips....you legs hang, then you bring your legs straight up as if you were sitting on the floor with your legs in front of you. Great for building up thigh and some of the hip muscles. For ankles, just calf raises should help some. I also try to work on the flexiblity of my ankles by sitting and rocking back on them (in socks on a pad/carpet).

RE: The Fin Factor

Former Member — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:56:00 GMT

Are you using the same fins as everyone else? Both 100s on 1:45 sans fins and 100s on 1:10 with fins would be close to impossible for me, but I do see a 10-15 second drop/50 with fins, so you only seeing a 4 second drop and being a fast kicker is kinda surprising. Here is my theory right now. You have very flexible ankles, and your propulsive force is from the foot, with very little benefit from the shin, and almost no knee bend. When you put fins on, you maintain the same style, and your propulsive force is limited by your ankle as the fulcrum instead of your knee. This analysis is based on almost no real evidence, and is very likely completely wrong. But it could be try. Try this experiment if you think I have a small hope of being right. Kick something you can time with fins like you normally do, a 50 or a 100. On the next one, try to whip your foot as much as possible from the knee, let the fin break the surface of the water and kick it all the way down to 30 degrees (the surface being 0 degrees) which is probably much deeper than you usually kick. Let your kick be quad driven. Compare times. Come back and make fun of my theory for being completely wrong.

RE: The Fin Factor

Former Member — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:31:46 GMT

you probably have a fast kick that is slowed down by fins.... just my guess. i used fins today for the first time ever during a masters practice (800 LCM alt 50fr/50bk w/fins) and found that they didn't really change my kick much, but i swim primarily with a 2-beat.

RE: The Fin Factor

The Fortress — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:47:48 GMT

I agree with Chris -- if high schoolers can't make a 1:45 kick interval, that is pretty pathetic and they need to work on it. They are probably too lazy to really work a kick set. Very common. Perhaps Q's theory is correct. I feel like my whole leg is recruited when I kick with fins, and it really helps to build leg strength. And personally, I'd rather do lactate work with fins rather than short rest intervals. Though I will occasionally do kick mountains for endurance work. I can kick fast with or without fins. I kick a lot with fins, but then it doesn't bother my ankles or knees in the slightest. I think both are valuable.

RE: The Fin Factor

elise526 — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:02:33 GMT

RE: The Fin Factor

elise526 — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:01:06 GMT

RE: The Fin Factor

elise526 — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:43:28 GMT

Lots of great analysis here and it gives me much to think about. I do have incredibly weak ankles, so I do wonder if that might not be a factor. In fact, a podiatrist noted that in order to walk, my ankles are so weak that I've had to make up for it in my hip adductor/abductor area. Not only are my ankles weak, they are not very flexible. Another thing, a friend mentioned that when I kick, perhaps I use my core and hip abductors/adductors more than most. Could the problem be that I am overly dependent on core and hip adductor/abductor muscles for my kick and thus the fins don't make a big difference? My one rep max on the hip adductor machine is the entire stack, so I'm thinking the bizarre strength must come from overcompensation. Gee, I wish some of it would pan out on breaststroke, but no such luck. Great for cycling - maybe I should go back to that! The kids have a mental block. They are more than capable of doing the set.

RE: The Fin Factor

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:42:13 GMT

When we do swim sets with fins, I don't have the drop that everybody else does. Maybe 4 seconds a 50. I don't do enough fin work to know what my drop is, but I suspect I am similar to you. I certainly cannot drop my interval by over 30 seconds; that's crazy. (If this is a group of high-schoolers who can't make 100's kick on the 1:45, they need to do more work without fins.) I am a little tentative with fins because I worry about protecting my ankles and knees, and kicking hard with fins puts stress on them. When I overcome this fear/hesitancy, it makes a pretty big difference in my speed with the fins. Maybe you're subconsciously holding back? Also maybe your kick without fins is a high-frequency/low-amplitude kind of thing, and the fins make it harder for you to have a rapid kick (this may be what Chaos is saying too) and you slow down. Similarly, when I put paddles on I have better DPS but I have a slower turnover, and the two effects almost exactly cancel out. But I know plenty of people who are greatly helped by using paddles. I tend to agree with others, though: I would rather have YOUR problem than THEIRs. You can't race with fins on.

RE: The Fin Factor

orca1946 — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:15:09 GMT

Smaller size fins will allow you to kick faster. Also, silicone fins will feel much better on your feet.

RE: The Fin Factor

Former Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:26:57 GMT

Weak ankles?

RE: The Fin Factor

Former Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:32:43 GMT

My kicking problem is the opposite, pretty good with fins, totally suck without. Recently had a "Eureka" moment, in my teens and twenties I body surfed sometimes for hours a day, pretty much kicking with fins the entire time, sometimes just cruising but other times really slammin'.

RE: The Fin Factor

Bobinator — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:31:31 GMT

I think it means you are getting alot more out of your kick than most people. The artificial enhancement makes big time jumps for weak kickers because they are so slow without them. You are fast both ways but just a little faster with the fins. This is a good thing I'd say. :agree:

RE: The Fin Factor

elise526 — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:24:14 GMT

No it's not a bad thing. They don't allow fins in meets. How are you swimming with the fins? I find if I underwater SDK on my back 12.5's and kick on my back a yards, roll at the flags and flip turn, I can move with fins. Probably wouldn't hurt me to spend more time underwater. When we do swim sets with fins, I don't have the drop that everybody else does. Maybe 4 seconds a 50.

RE: The Fin Factor

rtodd — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:42:33 GMT

In any case, why do I stink on fin work when I am a pretty strong kicker without the fins? Is this a bad thing? No it's not a bad thing. They don't allow fins in meets. How are you swimming with the fins? I find if I underwater SDK on my back 12.5's and kick on my back a yards, roll at the flags and flip turn, I can move with fins.