Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:34:06 GMT

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:47:30 GMT

I commented in your blog that it must have looked like you were swimming a 1500 instead of 200 based on your split and after seeing the video I'll stick to that! You really, really need to crank it up. Even the 50 looked a little too controlled. The fact you swam a 27 low with that kind of turnover is impressive. I think if you can keep your sound stroke mechanics, but increase your stroke rate you will improve a lot. Thanks Kirk. I am not disagreeing with any of those points :)

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:33:29 GMT

Mr. Q: Would you consider an observation that your left hand crosses over the center? Mike, I don't see it, unless you mean on entry. I just rewatched both videos where I am approaching, and the left hand enters poorly (it should enter about 6" further out), but then it sculls to where it should have entered pulls back until about the hips, where the hand disappears. Did you mean on entry, or do you have a timestamp that shows it well?

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:03:52 GMT

Mr. Q: Would you consider an observation that your left hand crosses over the center? That left hand then slashes over to the left before moving underneath your torso. All that had motion moves your hips and legs out of a streamline position. Some swimmers with a huge kick can get away with a cross over stroke (i.e., Alexander Popov) but most, including me, cannot. I'm sure you have seen this video of Ian Thorpe--his hands seem to stay pretty much within his bodyline throughout the entire stroke. YouTube- Thorpe Front View Underwater

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:59 GMT

I know, it's tempting to recommend him to increase drastically his turnover on this distance but at the same time, if he was happy with the time... I think a best swim on that day in the 50 free would have been a 26.9, so I am happy with a 27.2. I am a 24 low scy now, and considering that time is dropping, I am happy. I need to be a 23 mid in January and taper to a 22 high/23 flat in February. Happy today is not necessarily happy tomorrow. So faster turnover and stronger faster kick are in order.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:50:09 GMT

Nice 200 there Q. Super relaxed and just oh-so-smooth. Very handsome stroke. But what the h*&%#! do you think you were doing? Taking a leisurely Sunday afternoon stroll through the park? Or were you hoping to star in one of those demo videos showing perfect hand placement? Talk about Lazy Wife. She has nothing on Lazy Husband. Your coach ought to give you a firm clip alongside the ear and tell you to put some more effort into it. In case you were wondering, you are meant to feel tired at the end of a 200. :bolt: That said, I was really impressed with your 50 time given your torpid turnover. You are obviously doing some magic under the water. Awww Syd, I didn't know you cared :blush: I think I just starred in a demo video on how not to pace your 200 free. If you look in the background during my flip turn at the 100, you will see Lazy Wife and one of my coaches. Coach: "Did he mean to go out that slow?" Lazy Wife: "I don't know, but I think he has a plan." Coach: "Ok, he seems like the kinda guy who would have a plan." After the race they didn't really know what to say. Lazy Wife is not a math person, so she didn't know how slow a 2:20 scm was until I climbed out and said that converts to about a 2:06. She was nice enough not to start ridiculing me for that race until Sunday. And she did. For hours. Glad I could provide a reason to use torpid in a sentence :)

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:08:54 GMT

But it occurred to me that the nipple on the recovery side should almost reach the surface if the water, if not even pop out temporarily for a quick breath of air. Perhaps you could try swimming this way--no joke, nipple breathing analogy notwithstanding--to see if it helps your rotation, and if increased rotation has any beneficial impact on your performance. Jim, this is a really good reference point for rotation. My nipples happen to be rather symmetrically placed on each side of my body at a fixed point. I can use that reference point to figure out how much difference there is between my right side rotation and my left side rotation and correct my left side to match my non breathing right side nipple elevation.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:02:16 GMT

How did it feel? I remember Ricky Berens saying in an interview that he feels like he is blacking out on his last 50. It was cake. I did a fast 200 scm at Lifetime today from a push after warm up and a kick set. Time: 2:20.xx. I mentioned this in my initial post. Foreward: My 50 was a good time for me, my 200 time I have actually beat in practice from a push. I have been getting some great commentary so far, but trying to analyze my strategy during that 200 is kinda meaningless. It could easily be said that I wasn't mentally present for the 200. Both the 50 and the 100 hurt more than the 200. I didn't even know that was possible. You are right, the 200 should hurt a ton.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:48:55 GMT

On your solo workout days, Just do good 20 Mid pool 25s working on fast turns! I did 2 turn 50s today :)

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

jim thornton — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:18:56 GMT

Jim, Do you think that the problem is primarily with my left side? Now that you mention it, I do see less rotation on your left side. I don't mean to make too big a deal of it--in fact, it may be a false lead entirely. But when I was trying to more or less globally process your stroke, something struck me as just a little tight, which seemed paradoxical given how relaxed you look. So then when Paul also mentioned the lack of rotation, that struck me as maybe being what I was sensing. Tonight at practice, I tried to see how much I rotate in my own stroke (not that I would recommend anybody use my stroke as something to emulate). But it occurred to me that the nipple on the recovery side should almost reach the surface if the water, if not even pop out temporarily for a quick breath of air. Perhaps you could try swimming this way--no joke, nipple breathing analogy notwithstanding--to see if it helps your rotation, and if increased rotation has any beneficial impact on your performance. One other thing I will also second: a bit of a quicker high elbow catch might be worth investigating as well. The Grant Hackett YouTube videos show this extremely well. You clearly have the speed to do well in the 200. It may be that you hyst need to brutalize yourself with much harder practice sets to get the conditioning up enough to sustain this speed for one nature's most fiendish distances... best of wishes in your pursuit of self-brutalization!

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

knelson — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:07:24 GMT

Do you ever do "swimming golf" 50s? Those are the ones where you add your time to the number of strokes you took and try to get the lowest total. Try to do sets of these where you get faster, but don't increase your stroke total. This will ensure that you are increasing your stroke rate but maintaining the good distance per stroke that you already have.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

knelson — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:40:12 GMT

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:28:36 GMT

Kirk, I don't play golf, but I should. SolarEnergy, don't worry about it. My DPS will drop as I increase my turnover, but I know how to get it back. There is a happy medium somewhere, that playing golf will help me find. Mike, Yeah, my left hand has poor entry, I thought you meant that I crossed under my body during my pull. My fishtail is probably caused by a weak left side (compared to my right), where I don't get a good grasp on the water and I lack the kick to compensate for it. I would probably drop over a second on my 50 if my left side was as good as my right side.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:59:54 GMT

Did you mean on entry, or do you have a timestamp that shows it well? Unfortunately, I don't have a timestamp and I'm not as skilled with video as Mr. Thorton. On entry your left hand crosses over then slashes left. If I were Mr. Thorton, I could show you a still picture with the hand at about shoulder level several inches outside your bodyline--like a whale with it's side fin extended (not that you remotely look like a whale or that any whale was harmed in the composition of this message:bliss:). From that outlier position your hand does come back nicely under your torso. My point would be this: something is causing you to fishtail slightly. Again, if I were skilled, I could show you a picture from your video of how you torso curves, like an elongated "C" during sections of your stroke. I do one arm drills to check my hand position and to feel how my shoulders should roll. I find it really hard to swim flat doing one arm drills. :2cents:

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:40:35 GMT

That said, I was really impressed with your 50 time given your torpid turnover. You are obviously doing some magic under the water. That's one thing that struck me too. I know, it's tempting to recommend him to increase drastically his turnover on this distance but at the same time, if he was happy with the time... Increasing turnover has a sharp impact on velocity if you don't loose your dps in the equation. Increasing it slightly could bring him to 27flat and even under, especially if he can use little more of this magic and come back on 16-17 strokes instead of 18. And short term, that can be done with a better commitment of the kicking department (on the 2nd 25) I would love to see Q attempting the 100 with this 50m as a first split, with this turnover and a more efficient kick. That's under the minute and a joy to see.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:02:46 GMT

I'd like to play devil's advocate on the high turnover, or much higher turnover issue on the 50m. Our client here masters the Distance Per Stroke variable. That's his weapon. 14 strokes to go, 18 to come back. It's the 18 strokes to come back that raised my attention. Not sure if our client can really follow you guys advices of increasing turnover by a lot, without loosing more water. Increasing the turnover requires the fitness to support this higher turnover without loosing water. 18 strokes that's already a lot of strokes on a 25. Increase the turnover by a lot and you'll see what's going to happen. This 18 will become 20 or 21. Few numbers (averages will do): 27.71 seconds / 32 strokes gives you a turnover of 69.28 SPM Turn this 69.28 into 72 (which is not a **much** higher turnover but just a reasonably higher turnover) and you're already down to 26.66 Increase it up to 74 and you're now down to 25.94 Increase it up to 80 and you're down to 24 flat Now. Cut a stroke and keep 69 and you're down to 26.9 31 strokes / 71 RPM = 25.83 Keep 31 strokes and increase the turnover by **much**, say up to 86 and you're down to under 21.64 (which was once Popov's world record). I agree that Q should increase his turnover, but not at the cost of DPS. He should not sacrifice a single stroke per length in this equation in my opinion.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:11:59 GMT

Hey Fort, You will never guess what I worked on this morning, AFAP 25s and hard kicking. On the 200, I think I took my first kick at 37.5 from the end, and actually started kicking hard on the last 25. It was pretty embarrassing. Don't worry, Lazy Wife brought up the lack of kick on my 200 every couple minutes for about 3 hours after watching the video. "You know it is only a 200, you could probably six beat kick the whole thing." :blah: I should have married a runner. Hey Stud, Glad you liked my stroke... SolarEnergy, I have a tempotrainer which is very similar.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:05:26 GMT

Jim, Do you think that the problem is primarily with my left side? Geek and That Guy, I obviously ask for advice on the forums so I can ignore all of it, and not just the good advice. Wait a minute here ... I've seen a Geek 50 free. Turnover was way faster than Q's. I imagine it'll be even faster in his upcoming naked 2 fly. I bet Geek's naked 200 fly would be record setting, if FINA allows the complete lack of suit. It may actually be faster than his 50 free.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Allen Stark — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:34:56 GMT

I've had problems with the back arch thing sometimes.What helped me was to concentrate on tightening my glutes during the streamline.Stand in front of a mirror and see if it makes a difference.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:12:32 GMT

dude thats more than a stroke per 25. i'd take it. Hey Shane, As far as DPS goes, sure, but I could just kick the entire race if I wanted to maximize my DPS. I will experiment with it more before I decide if it will work, or if I need to go back to trying to figure out the hip roll. You have to think, my entire head is in a new position. That can't have zero drag effect. The goal is to go fast, not see how far I can glide underwater :) Of course, the new head position might be an overall decrease in drag because my shoulders are now a head width narrower and my back is flat instead of arched.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:02:50 GMT

Not sure if this is a great idea at this point, but it made a couple yards difference off the walls today. dude thats more than a stroke per 25. i'd take it.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

rtodd — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:59:56 GMT

You have a well constructed stroke and I don't think there is a whole lot to change here. It is real nice to watch, very smooth. But since you are looking for feedback: If anything, your left side pull looks a little deep? Hard to tell completely. A bit higher elbow(s) perhaps? I don't think you are returning your head to neutral early enough after breathing and this could be causing some loss of body rotation and your left elbow to drop. Also, like PWolf said, the stroke rate could be considerably higher and the kick could be stronger. To me, it looked like a 500 pace. Coming off the blocks take a few SDK's and get out way past the flags. You popped right up. How did it feel? I remember Ricky Berens saying in an interview that he feels like he is blacking out on his last 50. I know that I've had thoughts of quiting the sport during the third 50 and no lucid thoughts at all in the last 50. I'm afraid to say that is how it should feel.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

Former Member — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:52:18 GMT

Did you know the guy next to you was doing a 50 TT? That would have confused me. Nope, and he was seeded about 10 seconds slower than me. The guy on the other side was seeded about 10 seconds faster and went a 2:21. I was obviously confused, but I don't blame either of them.

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

tjrpatt — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:16:09 GMT

Jim, Do you think that the problem is primarily with my left side? Geek and That Guy, I obviously ask for advice on the forums so I can ignore all of it, and not just the good advice. I bet Geek's naked 200 fly would be record setting, if FINA allows the complete lack of suit. It may actually be faster than his 50 free. On your solo workout days, Just do good 20 Mid pool 25s working on fast turns!

RE: Video Review: My 50 and 200 free

The Fortress — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:30:59 GMT

Don't listen to these people. This criticism has been tossed my way for years and years. On the other hand, it could explain my dreadful results in the 50, 100, and 200 but I'm not admitting to anything, especially when it comes from wolfy. Wait a minute here ... I've seen a Geek 50 free. Turnover was way faster than Q's. I imagine it'll be even faster in his upcoming naked 2 fly.