Split request for 400IM

RE: Split request for 400IM

chowmi — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:25:30 GMT

To be honest, one of my favorite warm downs after a practice is 300 yards/meters done as 100 back, 100 ***, 100 free. Often I don't have enough time so I'll just do 50 of each (and even more often lately, just a 50 or 100 easy!). Anyway, the 300 (back-***-free) is almost perfectly suited to be a warm down after a 100 fly, in my opinion. My personal unsolicited opinion is I don't like all the split requests and think swimmers should do a better job of just working with the meet event order and "dealing with it." But again, there is nothing against the rules to doing a split request, it's just my opinion (influenced from my perspective as a meet director because split request swims usually interfere with the flow of the meet; and Hytek doesn't make it easy to submit the times with their software so often the times never get submitted anyway). This is a very valid opinion! Meet directors, hytek operators, timers officials, starters.....they are the ones doing all the heavy lifting at the meets, and especially meet directors. There is so much that goes into putting on a meet. At our last meet, I joked, but was quite serious about charging for split requests or any special requests. I was quite willing to be charged an extra $10 for each split request (I got 3), regardless of whether I actually swam the event, and an extra $20 for having my times submitted to USA for being an observed meet (more work and had to verify my suit). I told them to seriously consider it and if so, then include it in the meet information next time. Does anyone know if there is specifically a rule against this?

RE: Split request for 400IM

Speedo — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:41:37 GMT

Speedo, good luck on your swims!!! Just one more thought....if the 100 free and fly are your focus events, how much are you really willing to isolate and focus on these two events, at the expense of all other events you might swim? You might want to see if it's worth re-examinating all your events, and doing a 100 free split off of something, swim the 100 fly event instead of trying to do it off the 400IM. The issue I can see with what you have written is that if you are worried about finishing legally, I would think you might end up holding back on the 100 fly leg. Good point. I'm also swimming the 50 and 200 free (these four comprise my 4 'focus events'). I suppose I could try to get a 100 free split in the 800 free. For the 400IM, I'm not as worried about a fatigue-induced DQ as I am with doing legal turns between strokes while daydreaming/recovering, so I'm not sure I would hold back, but you never know. I'll think about this some more- thanks!

RE: Split request for 400IM

chowmi — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:00:22 GMT

Thanks for the responses. Now I just have to concentrate on keeping the last 300 legal. Speedo, good luck on your swims!!! Just one more thought....if the 100 free and fly are your focus events, how much are you really willing to isolate and focus on these two events, at the expense of all other events you might swim? You might want to see if it's worth re-examinating all your events, and doing a 100 free split off of something, swim the 100 fly event instead of trying to do it off the 400IM. The issue I can see with what you have written is that if you are worried about finishing legally, I would think you might end up holding back on the 100 fly leg.

RE: Split request for 400IM

ande — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:23:20 GMT

I sit corrected, here's Kathy's response From: kathyj.casey Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:29 PM To: Rasmussen, Anders (AUSTIN, TX) Subject: RE: Hi Kathy Yes, if timed by fully automatic timing and the swimmer completes the race without being disqualified. See 103.13.2, page 24, which lists the fly leg of the IM as an example and also see 103.13.1, page 24, and 105.2.2, page 38. The swimmer could get a 50 fly time and a 100 fly time from the 400 IM, and both could count as official times for USMS records and Top 10 if the swimmer completes the 400 IM without being disqualified and the times are recorded by fully automatic timing. Kathy Won't work, you're swimming an IM & not a butterfly event I don't believe the split will count. Ask Kathy Casey, USMS rules chair for confirmation ande

RE: Split request for 400IM

Karen Duggan — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:30:02 GMT

I think split requests are a great thing for masters. We often don't have too many meets to begin with. Some meets like our USF meet in Feb only offer 50s and 200s. So if you wanted a 100 split, swim a 200. I don't think a lead off split is any different than swimming that event. :2cents: :2cents: (this time I gave my 4 cents worth!)

RE: Split request for 400IM

Speedo — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 02:39:53 GMT

To be honest, one of my favorite warm downs after a practice is 300 yards/meters done as 100 back, 100 ***, 100 free. Often I don't have enough time so I'll just do 50 of each (and even more often lately, just a 50 or 100 easy!). Anyway, the 300 (back-***-free) is almost perfectly suited to be a warm down after a 100 fly, in my opinion. My personal unsolicited opinion is I don't like all the split requests and think swimmers should do a better job of just working with the meet event order and "dealing with it." But again, there is nothing against the rules to doing a split request, it's just my opinion (influenced from my perspective as a meet director because split request swims usually interfere with the flow of the meet; and Hytek doesn't make it easy to submit the times with their software so often the times never get submitted anyway). Just 'dealing with' the event order is how it was done in my youth, and I'd be fine with the rules should they change to eliminate split requests. But since my college 100 free record was finally broken last year by the first leg of a 4 x 100 free relay (which I acknowledge is different but along the same vein), I don't mind playing the rules a bit, at least until I get over that loss :) I do admit it can be distracting for other swimmers in that heat- this is my main gripe with split requests I suppose.

RE: Split request for 400IM

jroddin — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:00:28 GMT

RE: Split request for 400IM

The Fortress — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:43:33 GMT

I have some recollection of Paul Wolf, guru on officiating, saying it was legal to go for a 50 fly split in a 200 IM ...

RE: Split request for 400IM

Speedo — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:38:43 GMT

I sent her a message as well and will post her response. Sorry if this ends up costing you a top ten spot Rich, but I have a feeling you're in there for another swim anyway...

RE: Split request for 400IM

ande — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:28:41 GMT

Rich, I sent Kathy this email (below) just to confirm. If she replies I'll post her response. I have a feeling the ref should not have allowed you go for that split & have it count. Ande Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:17 AM To: 'kathyj.casey@comcast.net' Subject: Hi Kathy Hi Kathy Have a rules question Can a masters swimmer go for a butterfly split in an IM & have it count for records & top 10 Ie swim the 200 IM & go for a 50 fly time Or swim the 400 IM & go for a 50 or 100 fly time Thanks Ande I did this exact thing at our state meet last spring due to the 100 fly and 50 free being back to back. It counted for top 10.

RE: Split request for 400IM

Rich Abrahams — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:05:56 GMT

I did this exact thing at our state meet last spring due to the 100 fly and 50 free being back to back. It counted for top 10.

RE: Split request for 400IM

pwolf66 — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:27:51 GMT

Won't work, you're swimming an IM & not a butterfly event I don't believe the split will count. Ask Kathy Casey, USMS rules chair for confirmation ande Ande, That's a similar rationale for the backstroke splits of a medley relay not counting. The only considerations (at least those that go into determining if a split is legal): a) are the start rules followed? (it's why a backstroke split from an IM can't be considered, or a ***/fly/free split from a medley relay isn't considered official) b) are the finish rules followed? (it's why backstroke splits have to have an observed legal hand touch to count) c) are the stroke rules followed during that portion of the event So any portion of a swim that meets that criteria, which in this case is the fly portion of an IM, can be considered a legal swim and an official split request can be made. Remember, each stroke has a specific start requirement that must be satisfied, IM transitions from fly to back, back to *** or *** to free do not meet those requirements but the fly portion of an IM does. Butterfly rules state 'a forward start shall be used'

RE: Split request for 400IM

ande — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:25:49 GMT

Won't work, you're swimming an IM & not a butterfly event I don't believe the split will count. Ask Kathy Casey, USMS rules chair for confirmation ande I just wanted to see what folks' thoughts were on getting an offical 100 fly split during a 400IM? The 100 fly and free (2 of my focus events) are consecutive events at my next meet, but the 400 IM is a bit later in the day and I'd have some time to rest between events if I were to get a split for the 1st 100 fly. I'd just have to concentrate on not getting DQ's while warming down on the last 300. Has anyone done this- any thought on the plan? Thanks in advance.

RE: Split request for 400IM

orca1946 — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:01:52 GMT

It should count, if it is the leadoff stroke !!

RE: Split request for 400IM

Speedo — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:09:12 GMT

Thanks for the responses. Now I just have to concentrate on keeping the last 300 legal.