Finally the PROOF for warm water...

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 08:07:49 GMT

cold water + hot air + sunshine = O

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:53:05 GMT

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:52:04 GMT

a way of quantifying degree of uggggh factor , this may be the most scientific posting to date. may i suggest these standards of measurement for the "U" factor. U-1 = a 16oz. sports drink chilled to 34 degrees F will last less than 15 minutes if left within reach of yours truly during practice. U-2 = breathing sucks, slight dizziness when heart rate = 2x age U-3 = i hope the lifeguard knows how to use that whatchamacallit thing

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

jim thornton — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:27:01 GMT

i'd like to see a study compare the effects of water and AIR temps. when swimming indoors, my energy is zapped more quickly when the air is warm... which also seems to effect air quality. here are my unscientific observations: warm air + warm water = uggggh warm air + cool water = nice then uggggh cool air + warm water = not bad cool air + cool water = bracing then sweet With the possible exception of A) a larger sample group, and B) a way of quantifying degree of uggggh factor , this may be the most scientific posting to date. I personally find warm air + cool water better than cool air + warm water. But otherwise, your analysis precisely gels with this anecdotal evidence experiencer's anecdotal evidence. Keep up the fine science, Captain Chaos!

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:51:56 GMT

It may not be scientific, but for me, when I swim in water 84 and above, it doesn't feel right to me, as I term it I lose my feel for the water. Last summer, at the club I used to swim at, the outdoor pool was around 84, if not warmer, and I was completely dying, the water just did not feel right. The indoor pool was at 81, right were I like it, so I want in there to swim, and immediately the water felt right again and I actually felt like I was going somewhere

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Allen Stark — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:53:11 GMT

When the water is over about 84 it feels different to me,like it's harder to get a grip on.I swam at one saline pool that seemed "too salty" and the water didn't feel right in it either.Also my worst major meet 50 in recent memory was Nats at the Woodlands where the water was about 86 by the race time.Everyone in my heat was slower than predicted.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

smontanaro — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:18:51 GMT

Another thing to consider is that the density of water gets less as its temperature goes up. So a higher temperature can make things like buoyancy more difficult as well as being harder to anchor the hand in the water (or pull against the water). I'm skeptical there'd be much effect. From this table I get 0.996914 g/cm^3 @ 25.5C (78F) 0.995646 g/cm^3 @ 30.0C (86F) That's only a 0.1% reduction in density. I doubt there would be much effect on your buoyancy or anchoring properties of the water. Compare that with the average density of sea water (1.025 g/cm^3 - temperature unknown) which is about 2.5% more dense than the above numbers. Hmmm... I imagine the density of your pool's water depends on the amount of chemicals dumped in it to combat little critters, though maybe it doesn't make much difference either.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:45:17 GMT

Obviously nobody wants to work out in 90 degree waters. But I thought it was interesting that the average swimmer is faster in 90 degrees, compared to 79 (which is competition temp). It goes to show you - just because everybody says that 78-80 is best, that does not make it true - one would need a larger sample. But for the sprints, it makes a lot of sense (one sprint that is ...) The Threshold swims showed that the HR was much higher at 90 degrees, which makes sense -- but the Lactate was actually lower ??? I work out at 4 different pools - temp varies at times between 76 and 85. I can adjust my workout for the warm water - but I can not adjust anything at 76 degrees - more or less continuous swimming is a mindless way of working out. The outside temp is also somewhat important - 79 degrees with 60 degree outside (+ wind) is a lot different than 79 water and 80 outside (Arizona).

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:08:14 GMT

My own hypothesis is that training in water much higher than 82-84 degrees wouldn't be beneficial simply because it's too hot to sustain really hard effort for more than a few sprints. True, your body would almost certainly get better at handling the heat, but I don't think this would outweigh the reduction in effort necessitated by the heat. Another thing to consider is that the density of water gets less as its temperature goes up. So a higher temperature can make things like buoyancy more difficult as well as being harder to anchor the hand in the water (or pull against the water).

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:01:07 GMT

I think that in comp pools, the water is 78 - 82 temp ?? In Michigan the high schools have a rule that says the water must be between 78 and 82 for competition.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Jeff Commings — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:15:45 GMT

I must be the only sprinter who hates warm water. My fast twitch muscles turn to slow twitch in warmer water (82 and higher), my brain wants to shut down and my times are about a second slower per 50 than if I swam in cooler water. You can't properly do race pace work in warm water. Rich, I swam in the Mona Plummer pool on Tuesday and it was a wonderful 79 degrees. On Wednesday it jumped up to 80. I'm assuming it'll stay there for this weekend. I will say that doing workouts in 78 degrees is tough. I have had trouble with leg cramping for some reason. But I only experience this "problem" when I'm trying to get in a swim while working at a championship meet (NCAAs and nationals), where they keep the pools at the low end of the allowable range.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

__steve__ — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 04:26:04 GMT

Now, what was far more interesting to me, a swimmer, was the LZRs that they were wearing!!!!! I was shocked. I was impressed with the chubby little mythbuster guy doing 25yd in 14 sec:applaud:

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

aquageek — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:59:11 GMT

I prefer to train in cool water and race in just a bit warmer than cool. However, the best OW swim I ever did was in a 92 degree lake. It was gross and nasty and felt like a filth sweater but I swam fast.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Karen Duggan — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:39:37 GMT

OK, kinda off topic, but did anybody see the Mythbusters where they compared times swimming in water vs. syrupy goo. Of course the theory was that the goo would be a lot slower. The goo was only 2 seconds slower per length. They estimated 6-8 seconds slower. Now, what was far more interesting to me, a swimmer, was the LZRs that they were wearing!!!!! I was shocked. I gasped when I saw the suit going into the goo and my daughter said, "What's wrong?" When I told her that that was a $500 suit she said, "Oh." I'm guessing Speedo was contacted by Mythbusters b/c they also had a Speedo cap and goggles. Too bad they couldn't have gotten Phelps too :D

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

jim thornton — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:05:18 GMT

Another thing to consider is that the density of water gets less as its temperature goes up. So a higher temperature can make things like buoyancy more difficult as well as being harder to anchor the hand in the water (or pull against the water). Leonard, I am glad to see you are going for the major phenomena and not wasting your speculative time on the minutiae. One note: though it is true that water becomes denser the colder it gets, at 32 degrees F it shifts phase, and in the process, becomes one of the few known solids that is less dense than its liquid state. Clink the ice cubes in your next high ball in celebration of this fact, then ask yourself if swimming through water at such a low density might, in point of fact, offer you even more of the anchor you seek.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Jeff Commings — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:00:48 GMT

In the current issue of Swimmer, there is a brief item on pool tempurature, and it speaks to the fact that the warmer the water, the more blood shifts to the skin to cool the body, depriving the major muscles of O2 and clearing of poisons. Perhaps warm=good for a sprinter, but if the Swimmer article is correct, longer distance swimmers would be better off in cooler water. Thoughts? Warm water is just as bad for a sprinter. We need the oxygen just as much as distance swimmers. We deplete our oxygen stores in our muscles faster and create lactate quickly. We need the blood to keep our muscles working, and if the blood is doing other work, it can't help us swim faster. As I mentioned before, my times in warm water are much slower. I try very hard to keep up my stroke rate, but the energy isn't there. As long as I live, I will continue to see this divide. Since fitness swimmers far outweigh the number of competitive swimmers in Masters, they will always win in convincing coaches/pool managers of the best pool temperature.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Redbird Alum — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:31:57 GMT

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:08:23 GMT

That's the spirit - when we don't "like" or agree with the result of a study, we just say it's wrong based on our own "scientific" experience. Here is another one -- or the short version "Blood lactate concentration during swimming in 23°C water was higher than that during the other two swimming trials (28 and 33)": Abstract: The purpose of the present study was to examine the effect of water temperature on the human body during low-intensity prolonged swimming. Six male college swimmers participated in this study. The experiments consisted of *** stroke swimming for 120 minutes in 23°C, 28°C and 33°C water at a constant speed of 0.4 m · sec-1 in a swimming flume. The same subjects walked on a treadmill at a rate of approximately 50% of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) at the same relative intensity as the three swimming trials. Rectal temperature (Tre) in 33°C water was unchanged during swimming for 120 minutes. Tre during treadmill walking increased significantly compared to the three different swimming trials. Tre, mean skin temperature (Tsk) and mean body temperature (Tb) in 23°C and 28°C water decreased significantly more than in both the 33°C water and walking on land. VO2 during swimming in 23°C water increased more than during swimming in the 28°C and 33°C trials; however, there were no significant differences in VO2 between the 23°C swimming trial and treadmill walking. Heart rate (HR) during treadmill walking on land increased significantly compared with HR during the three swimming trials. Plasma adrenaline concentration at the end of the treadmill walking was higher than that at the end of each of the three swimming trials. Noradrenaline concentrations at the end of swimming in the 23°C water and treadmill walking were higher than those during the other two swimming trials. Blood lactate concentration during swimming in 23°C water was higher than that during the other two swimming trials and walking on land. These results suggest that the balance of heat loss and heat production is maintained in the warm water temperature. Therefore, a relatively warm water temperature may be desirable when prolonged swimming or other water exercise is performed at low intensity.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:40:48 GMT

So does this mean that warmer water is more stessful and the adaptation to that stress is a good thing (for swimmers college age and younger)? I'm not really sure the practical application of the information, please help. Does this mean that, at a certain temp, older swimmers shouldn't train in really warm water because their heart rates can move into levels that are unsafe?

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:54:15 GMT

Study is about the sixth item listed here: www.google.com/ I don't know about the FINALLY part as it was published in 1993.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:02:35 GMT

the PROOF is masters swimmers are more similar to the common north american noodler than i would have guessed!

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

BillS — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:51:13 GMT

32 Celsius = 89 F !!!!!!!!!!!! Effect of water temperature on performance, lactate production and heart rate at swimming of maximal and submaximal intensity. Mougios V, Deligiannis A. The effect of water temperature on performance effort, monitored heart rate and lactate production during freestyle swimming at maximal and submaximal speed has been studied. Fifteen male sprint swimmers performing 100 m swimming and fifteen comparable endurance competitors performing 30 min swimming at submaximal speed served as subjects. Water temperature in separate events was 20, 26 and 32 degrees C. At maximal performance there was a direct relationship between any two of the following parameters: water temperature, average swimming speed, heart rate during the competition and plasma lactate concentration after the event. Thus, the best effort (speed 1.704 m/s), the highest peak heart rate (185 beats/min) and the highest lactate level (19.8 mmol/l) were observed at 32 degrees C (all mean values). In contrast, these values were markedly lower at 20 degrees C. At the submaximal effort, water temperature was related to peak heart rate only. The highest peak heart rate (144 beats/min) was again obtained at 32 degrees C, while the lactate concentration (4.2-5.2 mmol/l) was independent of temperature. Water temperature appears to have a direct effect on performance effort, heart rate and lactate production during swimming at maximal intensity, whereas this effect seems to fade at submaximal efforts. 1.704 m/s is about a 58.68 hundred. I'd like to see what the maximal speed was at the other temperatures. I'll bet it was very close. I'd like to see the change in speed graphed against the changes in heart rate and lactate concentration. I'm guessing that those changed much more dramatically in response to temperature than the maximal speed.

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Jeff Commings — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:55:44 GMT

Those of you who love swimming in warm water should come to Arizona from October to March. Every pool is kept at 83 to 84 degrees, with a couple of exceptions. If Erik's post says that performance is better in warm water, I heartily disagree. In warm water, your blood is working to cool you off, not to bring nutrients to the muscles as you swim. Therefore, you tire quicker and your heart works harder to do twice the work, and not in a good way. Why do you think it's in the rules that pool temperatures MUST be between 78 and 80 degrees for competitions?

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

mattson — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:51:03 GMT

Man I wish I understood that for sure... Is he saying they went fastest in the warm water? So warm water is good for sprint races? Sounds like the other effects of warm water (higher heart rate and lactate) would not be ideal for training or distance swimming... If that is what he's saying, it goes against what I always thought (which is that a cool pool is best for racing). I dunno, seems like it all works out. For a sprint race, we usually need a lot of warm-up, as there is not enough time during the race to get the muscles warm (which is good for peak speed). Warm water probably helps that. For most people, the 100 race time is more than 2x best 50 time. This indicates that for most races (and almost all of practice), you aren't going at maximal speed, and cooler water is needed to keep the heart rate down. (Although you may be going as fast as you can sustain for a longer period of time, but that is not absolute peak speed.)

RE: Finally the PROOF for warm water...

Kevin in MD — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:31:52 GMT

So submax swimming speed was unaffected by water temp, but we don't know the distances or how sub the submax was.