Question for Science-minded swimmers...

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:50:35 GMT

You know what? I've been in this business for what, little over 15y now. These things happen quite often and it is never an issue. Especially in swimming. It would rarely take more than the period off the pool to get back to where you were. The very nice thing though is that all little niggles here and there are gone. You are fully rested. One other thing. I share your philosophy for myself (not for those I am responsible for). I never really stop when ill. I even try to book quality stuff anyway. Sometimes it works. Airways are fine I just cough at the end. One exception. My last cold in September. I stopped for 3 days (I think). Difference? Quite big I found. When I persist in training on some illness, I usually experiment a cool little peak when the bug quits my body. It didn't turn out this way last time. I could no longer book my threshold sets. And when the shape came back, there was not a slight peak.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

pwolf66 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:18:23 GMT

Long term yeah, but not in a few weeks. Adaptational atrophy begins in as little as 7 days.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

pwolf66 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:15:11 GMT

Brett, It all comes down to adapatations. Muscular and neurological. The human body is amazing in it's ability to adapt to increased physical demands (by creating more/dense/longer muscle fiber, by adding additional neuro pathways, becoming more efficient at oxygen/energy usage, adding more red blood cells for oxygen transport, etc) but the flip side is the body is also inherently lazy so when those increased physical demands are removed, then the adaptations made are no longer required and the body no longer allocates the necessary resources to support them and so those adaptations atrophy.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:12:42 GMT

I had swine flu and was sick with a high temperature for six days. I missed two weeks of training. The first two sessions back I probably wasn't fit and got bumped down from my normal lane with the coach telling me I need to give my body a chance to catch up Fact is I wasn't ready to get back in the pool! I think my defences were down and I got sicker than I have since I was 13. Facts is I needed a rest and my body told me to stay in bed. Two weeks later and I'm back on it and feel better than any time in last two months. Swimming better and much more energetic than I have been for ages. Could it be that I had other sub-clincial infections which finally flourished as well? Anyway - rest, rest, rest and worry about swimming fast when you are well. Agree- prior to getting sick i was swimming two workouts a day 2000yrds/3400yards. after i got past the bad week (high fever, superball phlemn, etc) i started swimming 500 - 1200 yards a day at a slow to moderate speed so not to lose my "feel". started feeling better yesterday (3 weeks after first getting this dam* virus) today did a short workout of 1500 yards; after a 400 yard warm-up swam a race set with alot of rest: 200 fr, 200 BR and a 50 BR. In summary; I swam them as quick as my last swim meet and felt strong and rested!! There is some truth to over-training for us old people and rest really helps. It looks like i will have a 6 week taper going into Long Beach... :cane:

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:22:48 GMT

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:13:57 GMT

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:54:50 GMT

My question is this; From a physiological or Kinesiological standpoint, what is happening in your body when you can so easily go from being in-shape to losing that in a matter of a week or two? First let's agree that not everything is being lost in a matter of a week or two. The loss in fitness that occurs in such a small period of time is mainly due to a drop in cardiac output (caused by a drop of plasma volume) as well as a drop of intramitochondrial enzyme efficiency. Think of those enzymes as being the employees that process a large portion of metabolic functions within the mitochondria. With fitness, these employees are capable of processing more metabolic at a higher rate. With a two week brake, they just need a week or two to regain this loss efficiency. Also, some hormones tend to overreact a bit after this sort of break. Drop in cardiac output along with increased activity of adrenalin for instance tend to increase the heart rate (sometimes considerably).

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

BillS — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:51:30 GMT

Jazz Hands wasn't around in the '70s, so he hasn't heard about biorhythms like us older folks have. The biorhythm fad seems to have gone the way of earth shoes and pet rocks. :) Remember the biorhythm calculators? A college roommate had a graphing one that would print out little 4" wide colored charts of what in retrospect was probably total nonsense. The TI (Texas Instruments, not Total Immersion) programmers were probably giggling like mad when they wrote the code.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

knelson — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:36:24 GMT

Jazz Hands wasn't around in the '70s, so he hasn't heard about biorhythms like us older folks have. The biorhythm fad seems to have gone the way of earth shoes and pet rocks. :)

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:57:52 GMT

Hypothetical question: I wonder if you can retrieve plasma from your body while in shape, sufficiently store it and then put it back into your body prior to a big meet to increase plasma volume? Would Michael Phelps' plasma help me? Sorry if these questions are odd but i love the science behind swimming! Your questions isn't odd at all. Plasma is mostly made of water, no hemoglobin. So by drop in blood plasma I really mean drop in converted hydration. I freely use the word converted here. What I really mean is that when you drink, the fluid is used by the body for various short/mid term usages. Part of the fluid we drink as part of re-hydration process goes into blood stream in the form of plasma. That along with the size and power of your heart mainly affect what some call : the cardiac output. When this drops, the very first fitness component being affected is your Vo2Max, which depends a lot on blood circulatory functions.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:50:23 GMT

Internet flame wars are way funnier when you know and train with the involved parties. :applaud: Bret I have a different take. Its all due to the Tommy burger you ate. http://www.originaltommys.com/ You probably picked up the swine flu there, too. Rather than contemplating the atrophy rates of muscles, you may want to look at the half life of what you ate. I think one of those burgers would put 5 lbs on me, add 2 seconds per 50 and take 30 days to completely digest. My advice, get healthy first. I'd be willing to bet getting sick will turn out to be the best thing for you. Do a search here on sick tapers. There are all sorts of masters who over work, get sick before the big meet and swim great. Getting sick forced them to rest. Rest is what you need my friend. that and have fun.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:59:51 GMT

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:44:36 GMT

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:38:30 GMT

First let's agree that not everything is being lost in a matter of a week or two. The loss in fitness that occurs in such a small period of time is mainly due to a drop in cardiac output (caused by a drop of plasma volume) as well as a drop of intramitochondrial enzyme efficiency. Think of those enzymes as being the employees that process a large portion of metabolic functions within the mitochondria. With fitness, these employees are capable of processing more metabolic at a higher rate. With a two week brake, they just need a week or two to regain this loss efficiency. Also, some hormones tend to overreact a bit after this sort of break. Drop in cardiac output along with increased activity of adrenalin for instance tend to increase the heart rate (sometimes considerably). Following 5 months of competitive training (approximately 9,000 yards.d-1, 6 d.wk-1), three groups of eight male swimmers performed 4 wk of either reduced training (3,000 yard.session-1) or inactivity. Two groups reduced their training to either 3 sessions.wk-1 (RT3) or 1 session.wk-1 (RT1), whereas the third group (IA) did no training. Measurement of muscular strength (biokinetic swim bench) showed no decrement in any group over the 4 wk. In contrast, swim power (tethered swim) was significantly decreased (P less than 0.05) in all groups, reaching a mean change of -13.6% by week 4. Blood lactate measured after a standard 200-yard (183 m) front crawl swim increased by 1.8, 3.5, and 5.5 mM over the 4 wk in groups RT3, RT1 and IA, respectively. In group RT1, stroke rate measured during the 200-yard swim significantly increased (P less than 0.05) from 0.54 +/- 0.03 to 0.59 +/- 0.03 strokes.-1 while stroke distance significantly decreased (P less than 0.05) from 2.50 +/- 0.08 to 2.29 +/- 0.13 m.stroke-1 during the 4-wk period. Both stroke rate and stroke distance were maintained in group RT3 over the 4 wk of reduced training. Group IA was not tested for stroke mechanics. Whereas maximal oxygen uptake decreases significantly (P less than 0.05) over the 4 wk in group RT1 (4.75 to 4.62 l.min-1), no change in maximal oxygen uptake was observed in group RT3. These results suggest that aerobic capacity is maintained over 4 wk of moderately reduced training (3 sessions.wk-1) in well-trained swimmers. Muscular strength was not diminished over 4 wk of reduced training or inactivity, but the ability to generate power during swimming was significantly reduced in all groups. It's several things. Some happen right away, some take longer. If you want to read the scientific literature on this, the term to search is "deconditioning." As in, the opposite of conditioning. Every adaptation that your body makes to training gets lost if you don't keep training. Off the top of my head: Skill memory Motor unit recruitment efficiency Enzymes in energy pathways Physical muscle changes (e.g., capillary density) If you're really interested in this stuff, read Maglischo. Fantastic explanation! I was looking for this type of answer. I should have not put in my original question any reference to being "sick". I should have used an example of a world class athlete (ie- Ryan Lochte) who is otherwise healthy that takes a 2 week vacation and his first day back in the pool he is not swimming the same workout splits that he was swimming prior to "Worlds" or the "Olympics" Thank you everyone for your answers!!

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

ande — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:13:15 GMT

deconditioning occurs, I would think at different rates for different folks, think it also depends on the swimmers events, I don't think sprinters fall off in sprints as bad as distance swimmers fall off in the longer events when they go through a period of not training. There's 3 areas to swimming to the swimmer: 1) Body: shape, conditioning, strength, AGE, 2) Skill: technique, movement habits, the way your nervous system directs your body, 3) Mind: mental stuff, self image, expectations, attitude, psych, Mental stuff can stick around for a long time, Skills are pretty locked in too, The battle is with our body when we go through a period of no training. deconditioning, age, weight gain, strength loss, I try not to get too sciency, A friend of mine was at a coaches conference, speakers were talking about the science of swimming, lactic acid, & all this technical stuff: During Q&A: One coach raised his hand and asked, "whatever happened to just kicking the other guys ASS?" My answers to swimmers who want to improve are: Tip 265 Train harder, smarter, faster, further, more often, with a coach, with a team, in a convenient facility & at a convenient Time Tip 165 Build a Better Boat For those who have taken a long break and want to get back into it. START OUT EASY & build from there

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

The Fortress — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:20:56 GMT

Thank you coach, for the smack-down, lol !!! I wouldn't mind an occasional coach smack down ... Count yourself lucky!

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:18:23 GMT

Remember the biorhythm calculators? Hey, I lived in California at the time...we were all over biorhythms! I am pretty sure we owned a calculator and (I was 8 at the time) I would be worried whenever a meet occured near a double- or (shudder!) triple-critical day. It has indeed gone the way of the dodo; more info is in (of course!) wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/.../Biorhythms Early in my academic career -- maybe in the mid-90s -- I tried to illustrate the phenomenon of interference to a class using biorhythms. That was the first of a string of gaffes over the years by which I illustrated my cultural ignorance: not a single student knew what biorhythms were. (But they know all about I Love Lucy or 70s music. Go figure.) Following 5 months of competitive training (approximately 9,000 yards.d-1, 6 d.wk-1), three groups of eight male swimmers performed 4 wk of either reduced training (3,000 yard.session-1) or inactivity ... These results suggest that aerobic capacity is maintained over 4 wk of moderately reduced training (3 sessions.wk-1) in well-trained swimmers. Muscular strength was not diminished over 4 wk of reduced training or inactivity, but the ability to generate power during swimming was significantly reduced in all groups. Thank you for posting this, Erik. I remembered that study (or a similar one) but you saved me the trouble of finding it. To me, the explanation is what Jazz and others have stated: you lose, essentially, the "muscle memory" of efficient swimming. It also suggests that the effects can be slowed simply by easy swimming. Our college coaches always told us to just jump in and do some easy laps a couple times per week during the break, for exactly this reason. Rule of thumb: the conditioning and other physical adaptations to training that took months or even years to acquire will not completely disappear in a matter of weeks.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:20:54 GMT

Yes, Jim, the number one activity of people with excellent social skills is telling other people how bad their social skills are. Anyway, regarding "biorhythms." It's in quotes because it came up with no context or explanation. It is literally meaningless in this conversation. I see "bio" in there, along with "rhythm." I'll grant you that if we want to foster acceptance and harmony here, we can indeed agree that the original question raises issues of how biology changes over time. However, I don't think stating the most obvious thing possible is a very harmonious way to respond to a valid comment about the importance of the nervous system in deconditioning. Especially when the most obvious thing possible is restated as, yes, pseudoscience.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:15:38 GMT

I've attended seminars that examined Biorhythms in details. There are coaches who believe in them and will either train their charges according to them or scratch them from an event. ¿Quién sabe? This has nothing to do with whatever the hell "biorhythms" are.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:09:29 GMT

I'm not an expert in this at all... but when I ask people who should know, they tell me it is "neurological" as opposed to a muscle mass issue. If I am hearing them correctly, it may be connected with how our neurological system gets the muscles to contract, and how patterned this response is. Again, not an expert here, just relaying what I think I've heard. I've attended seminars that examined Biorhythms in details. There are coaches who believe in them and will either train their charges according to them or scratch them from an event. ¿Quién sabe?

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:06:22 GMT

Following 5 months of competitive training (approximately 9,000 yards.d-1, 6 d.wk-1), three groups of eight male swimmers performed 4 wk of either reduced training (3,000 yard.session-1) or inactivity. Two groups reduced their training to either 3 sessions.wk-1 (RT3) or 1 session.wk-1 (RT1), whereas the third group (IA) did no training. Measurement of muscular strength (biokinetic swim bench) showed no decrement in any group over the 4 wk. In contrast, swim power (tethered swim) was significantly decreased (P less than 0.05) in all groups, reaching a mean change of -13.6% by week 4. Blood lactate measured after a standard 200-yard (183 m) front crawl swim increased by 1.8, 3.5, and 5.5 mM over the 4 wk in groups RT3, RT1 and IA, respectively. In group RT1, stroke rate measured during the 200-yard swim significantly increased (P less than 0.05) from 0.54 +/- 0.03 to 0.59 +/- 0.03 strokes.-1 while stroke distance significantly decreased (P less than 0.05) from 2.50 +/- 0.08 to 2.29 +/- 0.13 m.stroke-1 during the 4-wk period. Both stroke rate and stroke distance were maintained in group RT3 over the 4 wk of reduced training. Group IA was not tested for stroke mechanics. Whereas maximal oxygen uptake decreases significantly (P less than 0.05) over the 4 wk in group RT1 (4.75 to 4.62 l.min-1), no change in maximal oxygen uptake was observed in group RT3. These results suggest that aerobic capacity is maintained over 4 wk of moderately reduced training (3 sessions.wk-1) in well-trained swimmers. Muscular strength was not diminished over 4 wk of reduced training or inactivity, but the ability to generate power during swimming was significantly reduced in all groups.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:39:21 GMT

Since there are plenty of athletes out there dealing with a come-back from the flu just as the rest of the team is getting ready for the season championships.... the truth should be told if soliciting advice. Prior to illness - daily double workouts, consistent high level effort, few or no recovery breaks or competitions. Contracted Swine flu or at least a horrible sounding chest cold. Training through the illness. Birthday in the middle of everything. Prescribed antibiotic treatment by physician Still sick - still training... or did I already mention that? I'm not science minded, but sometimes it is plain obvious. More rest is needed. Intensive interval training while still sick is possibly going to land the athlete in bed during the championship weekend. We have had 3 athletes in this exact situation. Frustrating? Yes. But there are still nearly 2 weeks before the big meet. I don't think all is lost. Just in case one of these 3 is a night nadadore who listens to my advice over yours. You need more rest. Your focus should be getting well as fast as possible, so you can get back in the pool. Don't worry about deconditioning, worry getting well fast so you have time to get your feel back right before the meet. I got sick right before my first USAS meet in Oct. I immediately stopped swimming, took a day off work, stopped lifting, ate even healthier than usual and focused on getting well. I was better about 3 days before the meet, and when I got back in the water, I didn't worry about conditioning, I worried about making sure my technique was as good as it was going to be. I couldn't regain what little conditioning I lost in 7 days out of the water and 9 days out of the gym, but I could regain my feel for the water and make sure my starts and turns were solid going into the meet. Also, start paying more attention to Ahelee's advice and less to my drivel.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:53:05 GMT

Muscle atrophy, I imagine. Long term yeah, but not in a few weeks. It's several things. Some happen right away, some take longer. If you want to read the scientific literature on this, the term to search is "deconditioning." As in, the opposite of conditioning. Every adaptation that your body makes to training gets lost if you don't keep training. Off the top of my head: Skill memory Motor unit recruitment efficiency Enzymes in energy pathways Physical muscle changes (e.g., capillary density) If you're really interested in this stuff, read Maglischo.

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

Former Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:51:09 GMT

Try telling that to Emil Zatopek?

RE: Question for Science-minded swimmers...

jim thornton — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:29:16 GMT

This has nothing to do with whatever the hell "biorhythms" are. You might want to work on your social skills just a wee bit. Chronobiology may, indeed, be somewhat off topic, but it's neither pseudoscience (as your comment and use of quotes seems to imply), nor is it entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Most swimmers swear by some sort of taper before a big meet. What is this difference between such allegedly beneficial rest and refueling of substrates or whatever exactly happens, and the deconditioning that occurs when you have to stop training because of being sick? Both involve taking time off, so why should one be so great and the other so deleterious? Ditto for diurnal and weekly rhythms and training cycles--I suspect you are a fan of periodization in weight training. Is this not, in some sense, a cyclical matter, that is to say, a matter of rhythms to optimize biology? Tact, Mr. Hands! Do not let your social skills atrophy from lack of practice!