Kicking

RE: Kicking

slowfish — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:10:26 GMT

Love this... need to do more of it! A good way to start a group vertical kicking is to line everyone up at the backstroke flags and face forward - no looking sideways or up at the flags. Start the kick. At the end, check where the swimmers are located relative to the flags. Everyone should be still right underneath the flags. Anyone behind the flags is kicking more forward - or up. Anyone in front of the flags is kicking more backward - or down. The kick should be even forward and back. Or up and down when you're actually swimming. This is actually a fun kick set to do with a group - big or small :) boy, i'm sure going to give this a try. given that i go nowhere with my kick, i suspect there is something very, very wrong with my kick. i can't seem to make any improvements even with the tips in the "help my flutter kick is terrible" thread. my 25 sprint kick times stay stagnant.

RE: Kicking

orca1946 — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:02:26 GMT

More & faster kicking is great for cardio & speed .Deeper kicks will work the quads & hams better.

RE: Kicking

Former Member — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:57:53 GMT

When doing kick sets is there any real need for the board? I can practice the br kick with or without (on my stomach), but for dolphin or flutter sets kicking on my back without a board feels much better (easy breathing, flatter position, streamlining and bs style flip turns...) Am I missing anything by not using the board as well? Or is it just personal preference?

RE: Kicking

__steve__ — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:13:10 GMT

I'm learning how to keep my head up just enough (kicking without board) so I can inhale through my nose.

RE: Kicking

Former Member — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:31:39 GMT

Double post. Sorry.

RE: Kicking

swimmj — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:00:48 GMT

Great addition MJ. FINz are a saving grace for swimming with a sore or injured shoulder. But hopefully the swimmer is anxious to find out why their shoulder is hurt if it is a bad technique related issue. The nice thing about masters is that we are all adults. Swimmers have to take responsibility for their roll in lane selection, equipment usage, effort level in workouts - and communication with their coaches. (one of my old coaches told me masters swimmers are simply 10 & unders with credit cards) Coaches by the way, are not mind readers! I always ask if an injured swimmer knows why they are having shoulder issues and what they are doing to address it - stroke work, pt, etc. And your old coaches comment about us being 10 and unders with credit cards - very, very funny and often true. I coach both groups and had the experience of being on deck twice when swimmers complained about someone going much faster and the offended swimmer was sure that the faster swimmer had a stroke flaw I should correct - kicking with knees too bent. The difference between the 7 year old and the 65 year old in complaint - the 7 year old used an adjective. Really. The. Only. Difference. --mj

RE: Kicking

Former Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:13:28 GMT

The way people can add the kick back to practice is to use fins, gives you speed and works your legs at the same time, abs too if you are doing fly! I'm not crazy about using fins myself since it hurts my ankles so much. But it is certainly fair to assume that for anyone capable of using them while achieving some level of ankle relaxation, it probably remains the most efficient method of stretching the ankles, thus leaving a permanent favorable impact. Again though, me, hell they hurt.

RE: Kicking

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:20:14 GMT

Ahelee - I agree with you in regards to FINz except for those who are dealing with shoulder issues. If you are working with a touchy shoulder and choose to use FINz and either only kick or overkick a sprint session, I can totally understand that. And as a coach, I expect that swimmers with various physical issues let me know what they are working with, so I can help them. And swimmers need to be realistic about where they are in their lanes and space themselves as needed. Often one can leave an extra 5 or 10 seconds behind and not cause any issues.--mj Great addition MJ. FINz are a saving grace for swimming with a sore or injured shoulder. But hopefully the swimmer is anxious to find out why their shoulder is hurt if it is a bad technique related issue. The nice thing about masters is that we are all adults. Swimmers have to take responsibility for their roll in lane selection, equipment usage, effort level in workouts - and communication with their coaches. (one of my old coaches told me masters swimmers are simply 10 & unders with credit cards) Coaches by the way, are not mind readers!

RE: Kicking

swimmj — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:03:36 GMT

So here is the thing about masters swimmers Skip... They almost all LOVE swimming and or kicking with FINz! Probably even more than fast 25s. I couldn't agree with you more that some use them as a crutch. As a coach, I try to find a way to put a "FINz Set" in every single workout. That way, when I see the gang reach for the fins, I can tell them to save their legs because the FINz set is coming. Some swimmers have real issues with being able to kick well. They can improve - some coaches have the skill to help them - but it also takes patience and willingness from the swimmer. Often they do not want to be bothered. And masters afterall is for fun. So the swimmer and coach have to decide how much they are willing to work for it. Can we all agree though that big FINz and ego are trouble if the fins are not assigned to the set? Ahelee - I agree with you in regards to FINz except for those who are dealing with shoulder issues. If you are working with a touchy shoulder and choose to use FINz and either only kick or overkick a sprint session, I can totally understand that. And as a coach, I expect that swimmers with various physical issues let me know what they are working with, so I can help them. And swimmers need to be realistic about where they are in their lanes and space themselves as needed. Often one can leave an extra 5 or 10 seconds behind and not cause any issues. --mj

RE: Kicking

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:29:26 GMT

An excellent way to work on increasing kick tempo is vertical kicking. At least for me, when the resistance goes up (e.g. raising arms higher out of the water) the kick tempo has to increase to keep your whole head above the water. Love this... need to do more of it! A good way to start a group vertical kicking is to line everyone up at the backstroke flags and face forward - no looking sideways or up at the flags. Start the kick. At the end, check where the swimmers are located relative to the flags. Everyone should be still right underneath the flags. Anyone behind the flags is kicking more forward - or up. Anyone in front of the flags is kicking more backward - or down. The kick should be even forward and back. Or up and down when you're actually swimming. This is actually a fun kick set to do with a group - big or small :)

RE: Kicking

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:18:48 GMT

And some masters just use them as a crutch. :cane: It bugs me that some people use them all the time, or worse, put them on at various times during the workout. The lane then has to reshuffle. Small thing, but it certainly is a small flow break. So here is the thing about masters swimmers Skip... They almost all LOVE swimming and or kicking with FINz! Probably even more than fast 25s. I couldn't agree with you more that some use them as a crutch. As a coach, I try to find a way to put a "FINz Set" in every single workout. That way, when I see the gang reach for the fins, I can tell them to save their legs because the FINz set is coming. Some swimmers have real issues with being able to kick well. They can improve - some coaches have the skill to help them - but it also takes patience and willingness from the swimmer. Often they do not want to be bothered. And masters afterall is for fun. So the swimmer and coach have to decide how much they are willing to work for it. Can we all agree though that big FINz and ego are trouble if the fins are not assigned to the set?

RE: Kicking

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:07:45 GMT

Speaking of which, one of our coaches made a comment about the transition from streamline (or SDK) to swimming the other day. You need to flutter kick first, then bring in the arms. "it was a small revelation." Skip Skip - That is so cool that you got the transition figured out! And you're right... it changes everything! No stopping dead in the water if you're a little deep and it makes a great powerful but smooth breakout. Coach Chris Colburn pointed out to me in Clovis that I was breaking out on backstroke with my breakout arm sticking up in the air. I'm a coach and a relatively new backstroker. But I didn't realize it and no one told me in training. That little piece of coaching smoothed out the remainder of the SDK for me. I LOVE when swimmers coach each other! Don't complain about the lack of coaching on deck... rally your team and lane mates to help you. It totally works!

RE: Kicking

smontanaro — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 07:48:34 GMT

*some masters do not turn well with w/FINz and should not wear them *some masters need to use FINz to build confidence in their SDK And some masters just use them as a crutch. :cane: It bugs me that some people use them all the time, or worse, put them on at various times during the workout. The lane then has to reshuffle. Small thing, but it certainly is a small flow break. I got some zoomers maybe three seasons ago and used them for some kick sets. I think they might have helped, but I really have no idea. This year I'm swimming zoomer-free and hope to work more on the integration of my kick with my stroke. Speaking of which, one of our coaches made a comment about the transition from streamline (or SDK) to swimming the other day. You need to flutter kick first, then bring in the arms. For me if I fail to do that I get pretty discombobulated and it takes me another two or three strokes to get my arms and legs in proper sync. I imagine that's a no-brainer to you TT-type swimmers, but for me (more of a fitness/recreational swimmer who enjoys the occasional meet) it was a small revelation. Skip

RE: Kicking

joshua — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 05:01:20 GMT

I have been doing this kick session with various strokes: 5x(25 hard kick/25 easy stroke) 5x(25 easy kick/25 hard stroke)

RE: Kicking

Former Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:25:58 GMT

I was a big Kicker in my youth but came to believe that kicking too much could actually slow you down if it is not integrated correctly in your stroke. Without the proper balance I believe that poorly integrated kicking could actually slow you down. Any thoughts? I've never found anything outside of TI that integrated kicking. Would love to find a good drill for that. The TI stuff just seems to make me swim slow with a good stroke.....

RE: Kicking

Former Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:45:51 GMT

Rich - looks like we are having the same ideas .... So far my pr is 22 seconds Why would a 50 sprinter need more than 22 sec of anything :) ? 10 pound brick ? Are you able to stay high enough to be able to breathe the entire time ? I started doing vertical kicking this summer. I alternated Free and Fly - started with 20 seconds on / off with just hands above my head (not keeping the arms straight) - then went longer - then I started to keep one arm straight - now I am at 30 seconds keeping a perfect streamline keeping my mouth above water all the way through. The weights will have to wait until next year. Not sure if it's the kicking or my race pace training - but I am swimming much faster compared to last year.

RE: Kicking

knelson — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:53:27 GMT

It seems to me that, as a general rule, masters swimmers don't like kick sets and if they do them it's easy "social" kicking. I think this is a poor strategy if you want to swim fast. As far as kicking with or without a board, I say do whichever one you feel comfortable with. If you hate kicking without a board, then kick with one. The important thing is to do kick sets, so whatever gets you to do them is fine. There have been numerous occasions in the past where I've trained with college swimmers and one thing I've noticed is that I'm as fast or faster than many of them (I'm talking women here) swimming, but they blow my doors off kicking. Now, I'm not a strong kicker, but even in comparison with everyone else in the pool this is consistent. The kids are better kickers than the masters swimmers. Now why is this important? I think for sprinters it's obvious you need to have a strong kick to be fast. But even for middle distance and distance it's important. For example, in a 200 free I always try to bring my kick in hard on the last 50. If my legs aren't in good shape this is a recipe for disaster. Your quads are the biggest muscles in your body and if they give out, you're toast. And for longer races kicking harder is the best way to increase your pace. We've all seen the swimmers who seem to have that extra gear and are able to put the hammer down and break away from the field. It seems to me in the vast majority of cases their extra gear involves increasing their kick. Again, you can't do this unless you've been working your kick in training. Maybe a select few have the discipline to train their kick while swimming, but I think most of us really need to do kick sets--and not social kicks!

RE: Kicking

The Fortress — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:10:22 GMT

Most lifters and strength coaches feel that a strength program must be changed periodically (periodization) due to the body adjusting to the stimulus. This is a very complicated subject. In order to know you would have to isolate one method do weights but stop kicking or vice versa. I don't really periodize all that much. But as an ADD diva, :), I change things up all the time at the gym. I'm not willing to stop kicking, not a remote chance, so that experiment is a non-starter. I am willing to shift from heavy weights/low reps to a different kind of strength training though. My only hesitation in doing that is that it will cause havoc in comparing my times from 2009 (in B70) and 2010 (likely no B70 :bitching:). If I change the strength training regimen, then the comparison gets complicated and there are too many confounding variables. Oh well.

RE: Kicking

Rich Abrahams — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:35:47 GMT

Erik, I've been vertical kicking for years. I started during rehab for a shoulder operation. I can keep my mouth above water with the brick, but it is barely over my head. I also like to use the streamline which is very tough. I do it all freestyle kick as fly aggravates my sciatica. Glad to hear you're swimming fast. Sorry I'll miss seeing you swim at Long Beach this year.

RE: Kicking

joshua — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 10:55:02 GMT

Many women find strength training more important than men - I think we tend to carry less muscle in general and so find it helpful to get stronger. --mj Excellent point.

RE: Kicking

joshua — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 10:49:46 GMT

For myself, I believe there's a good correlation between squatting and the use of the legs for starts and turns. I feel that the correlation becomes stronger when you include more explosive types of squatting (vertical jumping and lifting with lighter weight and bands or chains on the barbell). Also don't feel it's necessary to squat down to parallel to get benefit from this type of lifting. You have better leverage when you don't squat so far down (squatting parallel is primarily of use if you are competing in powerlifting, or working on a good weighted stretch of the lower back, glutes and hams). Better leverage for me equates to more power/explosiveness, which I can apply to starts and turns. OK, this maybe my lifting background but I can't stand seeing these guys in the gym loading up a bb with big weight, barely descending and then calling that a squat. I feel that the benefit is negligible unless this is partial training (a powerlifting training technique). You will get more benefit by losing less weight and going parallel or lower.

RE: Kicking

joshua — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 10:39:57 GMT

I do think that strength gains translate into performance gains. The most direct relationship between lifting and swimming happens to benefit non-sprinters more than sprinters. Every flip turn includes the power component of a squat. If you are working hard and getting stronger with your squat (or any variant), and you are not getting further from the wall faster, you aren't applying your new strength in the pool. Although I know of no study on the subject, I would conjecture that after a certain point of reasonable squat strength it would be more beneficial to simply practice the flip turn technique. I am convinced that more practice will result in a much greater improvement than, say, adding 10 more kgs. to you're 5RM in the squat.

RE: Kicking

joshua — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 10:29:37 GMT

The problem with weights is that there has been no long term study on swimmers. That 6 week Costill study that Jim Thornton always cites is a joke. It's a very small sample over a very short time period. You can't measure the benefits of lifting in 6 weeks. True on both points. Interestingly, I've grown a bit weary of the heavy low rep lifting myself. (And, really, I am not very strong except possibly for my age). After my taper meet in December, I'm going to shift more into circuit training/plyo training/bodyweight exercises. I've added plyos lately, and really enjoy them. Most lifters and strength coaches feel that a strength program must be changed periodically (periodization) due to the body adjusting to the stimulus. This is a very complicated subject. But, as to kicking, I'm sold on its benefits. Perhaps my improvements are due more to kicking than weights. In order to know you would have to isolate one method do weights but stop kicking or vice versa.

RE: Kicking

Former Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 10:25:11 GMT

Kicking is your engine in swimming - if you don't get enough in your regular masters workout - move down a lane or 2 once a week and do the main set kicking. Also - for you sprinters out there, VERTICAL kicking -- try it out. Build up to it with clean technique - it's a great way to increase your leg speed. For a long time alot of coaches (particularly TI) de-emphasized kicking as a major factor in swim speed. Kicking has actually become more and more important over the years - and TI is a "learn to swim" program - but has very little relevance on swimming fast - or swim coaching. As an aside, has anyone found any type of correlation between endurance built through kicking and endurance for cycling? I would bet anything that there is a negative correlation - but don't have the science. You build big leg muscles in cycling that you have no use for in kicking....

RE: Kicking

Former Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 06:42:24 GMT

Your quads are the biggest muscles in your body and if they give out, you're toast. Kirk, What kind of workout are you doing that your quads are bigger than your glutes? The quads are a large muscle group when used for a six beat kick are contracting 3x as often as the lats/delts/tris etc. :) I wonder if you tripled your stroke rate with a pull buoy, and that was the norm, would people start to social pull? Just being nit picky.