Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sun, 21 Feb 2010 13:30:05 GMT

Ditto congratulations on an excellent 1650. In terms of item #2 on your list, what do you--as a cardiologist--think about the following: Vioxx's link to heart problems (knowingly suppressed for four years) that damaged Merck's once admirable reputation the idea that plain old generic ibuprofen and naprosen are Cox-2 Inhibitors, though not selectively so--why would Vioxx be any better? Just an individual response on your part? the idea that shoulder overuse problems (including rotator cuff "impingement" problems) are increasingly viewed by orthopedic researchers as tendonosis rather than tendinitis, and that kiboshing inflammation is exactly the opposite of what you want to do that most of these problems, unless there is traumatic damage (SLAP lesion, rotator cuff tear, and so forth) are self-limited, and that you might have healed over time without VIOXX, perhaps even faster and that the RC exercises (and ice) may have been the most valuable elements here by 1. tightening an overly lax capsule, keeping the humeral head stabilized, and 2. providing some pain relief and increased blood flow? The reason I ask is that it seems to me there really has been a sea change in how swimmers shoulder is being viewed--and yesteryear's idea of attacking inflammation (via NSAIDS or cortisone injections) is more and more emerging as counterproductive (there is no evidence of inflammation, for one thing) and injurious (retarded healing rates and, with cortisone injections especially, evidence of weakened connective tissues.) Excellent points. Vioxx and related drugs are selective Cox-2 inhibitors, unlike Ibuprofen which is nonselective, inhibiting both Cox-2 and Cox-1. I personally found it to be the most effective of the Cox-2 inhibitors and far more effective than any of the other nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents. Every drug has potential side effects, including aspirin, which in a large study from Harvard actually increased the risk of intracranial hemorrhage in healthy physicians. Selective Cox-2 inhibition does come at a price which for some reason was not anticipated. Inhibition of Cox-2 without Cox-1 inhibition increased the risk of thrombosis in patients with coronary artery disease; whether a daily aspirin is sufficient to negate this effect is unclear to me. Other Cox-2 inhibitors, like Celebrex, remain on the market but should be used with caution by individuals with CAD. I am well aware of the concept of tendinosis and the rationale for not treating inflammation. I tried that for awhile and continued to experience pain. I discussed this with my orthopedist who shared my view that pain = inflammation and recommended anti-inflammatory treatment along with PT. Interestingly, while I was taking Vioxx my migraines completely disappeared. They recurred when I stopped. It was later learned that the drug was very good at migraine prophylaxis.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:20:06 GMT

Absolutely agree, Dr. Jaeger. I believe that in my case Vioxx treated the recurrent bouts of acute inflammation, but the longterm solution was PT and attention to stroke mechanics.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

jim thornton — Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:59:32 GMT

I am well aware of the concept of tendinosis and the rationale for not treating inflammation. I tried that for awhile and continued to experience pain. I discussed this with my orthopedist who shared my view that pain = inflammation and recommended anti-inflammatory treatment along with PT. Interestingly, while I was taking Vioxx my migraines completely disappeared. They recurred when I stopped. It was later learned that the drug was very good at migraine prophylaxis. Interesting points. There is no question that shoulder problems are painful, but the link to inflammation seems suspect. I attended the ACSM conference in Indianapolis a couple years ago and there was a presentation on the evidence for treating these kinds of injuries with NSAIDS. If I remember correctly, one of the presenters said that there is no evidence for inflammation in many of these persistent problems (swimmers shoulder, achilles "tendinitis", tennis elbow, and other select areas where the blood supply is not all that great to begin with.) Animal studies seemed to show that NSAIDS could retard healing rates for some injuries, particularly fractures. There was some talk about how Tylenol works as well as NSAIDS in blinded studies for pain control, but without the possibility of weakening tissues. One of the other areas of investigation--and I am not sure if this panned out or not--was to use nitroglycerine patches to promote blood circulation to poorly vascularized areas like the elbow. The use of eccentric exercise here to promote inflammation and expedite healing was also discussed. As far as migraines go, I used to be a regular sufferer of these, but their frequency has definitely decreased over the years. One headache doc from Chicago I interviewed for a story once told me that this is not uncommon. With age, he said, virtually everyone undergoes some hardening of the arteries, and as the arteries in the brain lose some of their elasticity, their ability to spasm and trigger migraines similarly decreases. Who would have thought there might be a silver lining to atherosclerosis of the carotids? In any event, I wrote about my last (knock on wood) migraine for my vlog. As a fellow sufferer, you might find interesting a strategy I developed for myself while in the throes of migraine suffering: forums.usms.org/blog.php Good luck with your shoulders, and again, great time on the 1650!

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:50:24 GMT

Great swim! I'm planning to do my first 1650 in less than 2 months and wish I had seen this thread in October. Vioxx was a great pain reliever. Many people still get teary eyed when they think of it. Tendonitis is, as I understand, typically chronic inflammation. There is a difference in how chronic vs. acute is driven, and I'd agree that relying on NSAIDs is not a long term proposition. Injections will work for some because the high steroid dose will quash whatever inflammation is there, provided there is sufficient rest in the short term and accompanying work on the biomechanics in the long term.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Jim Clemmons — Sun, 21 Feb 2010 03:04:18 GMT

19:55.13 Swam the 1650 today at, approprately enough, the First Colony Masters "There's a First Time For Everything" meet in Houston. Good job, Gull. :chug: Now that you've popped the 20 minute mark, there'll be a bunch more to follow.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:06:18 GMT

Hi gull! Congratulations on a great mile! How long did it take for your impingement to go away after you started bi-lateral breathing? Did you do anything else to treat the problem? thanks, Impinged in Indiana It requires constant maintenance. Here is what I did beginning in 2003: 1. Saw a PT and did RC exercises (which I still do regularly). Without my PT I would not be swimming. 2. Used ice and anti-inflammatories (Vioxx was amazing). 3. Modified my workouts, avoiding paddles (which I now use) and fly (which I am swimming again). Started to see improvement after six months. I switched to bilateral breathing later (2005?), but it took quite awhile to feel natural.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:02:28 GMT

In my opinion, you need to establish practice sets that are challenging to you AND maintain your interest day to day - week to week-month to month etc., including some that you will use as Test Sets. The reliable Test Set that I utilize is swimming 2000 yards and determining my average pace per hundred . This gives me a solid baseline from which to measure my improvement. Here are just a few sets I will do to train for the 1500 and Open Water Swims up to 6 miles: 1) 11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 (subract 1:40 from overal time - this = 10 seconds rest per repeat). Goal is to maintain your goal pace depending where you are at for the season. 2) 30x100 maintain constant goal time and interval (resting no less than 5 seconds and no more than 10 -interval established before beginning set) Hold pace - Can descend the last 5 100's. 3) 5x25/5 + 2x50/5 + 100 + 200 + 300 + 300 + 200 + 100 + 2x50/5 + 5x25/5 (choose rest of 5 OR 10, starting after the first 100 ) 4) 3x500/60 goal to hold race pace + sprint 100/5 plus sprint 2x25/5. 5) This could be a "Mix-Up Set" such as Pull,K,Fins etc. I chose to do this all kicking with long fins: 1650 holding set pace (get time)/ then 3x500 resting 20 seconds between each 500 + 100/10 + 50 (Get total time). Goal is to hold a set pace faster than the earlier 1650. For me I will do this again to obtain improvement. It was great for leg fatigue and mental concentration. 6) Did this once. Swam for 2 hours in pool hitting established pace. I did "touch and go" open turns at 100's to catch time. However, as a twist, I flipped just a little early every turn so that I did not use wall for push off and had to use legs efficiently to re-establish body position while maintaining pace. The Best Regina

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:49:27 GMT

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:32:08 GMT

Nice time, I wish I could do that ! Thanks. Back in 2003 it did not seem possible.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

jim thornton — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:36:45 GMT

It requires constant maintenance. Here is what I did beginning in 2003: 1. Saw a PT and did RC exercises (which I still do regularly). Without my PT I would not be swimming. 2. Used ice and anti-inflammatories (Vioxx was amazing). 3. Modified my workouts, avoiding paddles (which I now use) and fly (which I am swimming again). Started to see improvement after six months. I switched to bilateral breathing later (2005?), but it took quite awhile to feel natural. Ditto congratulations on an excellent 1650. In terms of item #2 on your list, what do you--as a cardiologist--think about the following: Vioxx's link to heart problems (knowingly suppressed for four years) that damaged Merck's once admirable reputation the idea that plain old generic ibuprofen and naprosen are Cox-2 Inhibitors, though not selectively so--why would Vioxx be any better? Just an individual response on your part? the idea that shoulder overuse problems (including rotator cuff "impingement" problems) are increasingly viewed by orthopedic researchers as tendonosis rather than tendinitis, and that kiboshing inflammation is exactly the opposite of what you want to do that most of these problems, unless there is traumatic damage (SLAP lesion, rotator cuff tear, and so forth) are self-limited, and that you might have healed over time without VIOXX, perhaps even faster and that the RC exercises (and ice) may have been the most valuable elements here by 1. tightening an overly lax capsule, keeping the humeral head stabilized, and 2. providing some pain relief and increased blood flow? The reason I ask is that it seems to me there really has been a sea change in how swimmers shoulder is being viewed--and yesteryear's idea of attacking inflammation (via NSAIDS or cortisone injections) is more and more emerging as counterproductive (there is no evidence of inflammation, for one thing) and injurious (retarded healing rates and, with cortisone injections especially, evidence of weakened connective tissues.)

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Bobinator — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:16:31 GMT

Thanks Gull! I'm going to a Chiropractor, getting Graston Therapy, and starting to get serious about RC exercises. I'm not sure if I have an actual impingement but my left shoulder is constantly stiff and radiates into the neck. It doesn't bother me much when I swim. I'd say driving is where it causes me the most problems. What exercises did you feel were the most beneficial to you?

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Bobinator — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:26:11 GMT

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:31:49 GMT

good job how was it? what were you hoping for? splits? ande My goal has been to break 20:00. Held 1:12s, which was my plan. The last 400 hurt. Wore a B70, rested a few days this week.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:14:54 GMT

19:55.13 Swam the 1650 today at, approprately enough, the First Colony Masters "There's a First Time For Everything" meet in Houston.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

orca1946 — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 03:58:35 GMT

Nice time, I wish I could do that !

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

ande — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 03:20:05 GMT

good job how was it? what were you hoping for? splits? ande 19:55.13 Swam the 1650 today at, approprately enough, the First Colony Masters "There's a First Time For Everything" meet in Houston.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:28:41 GMT

What breathing pattern did you use, same as the race? Every third, switching to every other for the last few hundred.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:06:36 GMT

Thanks for the suggestions. Swam a 1650 in practice this morning and went 20:37, holding 1:15s from start to finish. Fought off the demons at 1000. One of my training partners took off fast, splitting 6:00 for the first 500, and I let him go; mentally that was very tough, but he faded and actually stopped at 1000.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

jim thornton — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:19:25 GMT

Every third, switching to every other for the last few hundred. I am curious about the bilateral breathing. Do you do this because you can detect actual improvement in your swimming performance, or do you do it based on the theoretical belief that it balances your stroke in some way? I don't mean to sound flip here, it's just that there are a number of swimming technique aspects that sound good on paper, and make intuitive sense, but don't necessarily work well for every individual. I had the chance to interview Dara Torres a few years back, and I asked her about breath restriction and SDKs on her 50 and 100. She told me she tried both these things but then, with her coach's backing, abandoned them because they weren't helping her swim faster. She said she breathes every stroke on the 50, which I don't think is technically true, but I know she breathes much more often than the sprinting orthodoxy recommends. Anyhow, I have never found bilateral breathing to be at all helpful for me at any distance. During practice, maybe, it can be a useful exercise and distraction on occasion. It's not just that I run out of air because of having to wait the extra arm stroke. It's more that I can't breathe as efficiently on my non-normal breathing side. It's actually easier for me to breathe every two complete cycles (4 individual arm pulls) than to bilateral breathe (i.e., every 3 arm pulls.) Ditto for sneaking a breath after surfacing off the walls. I do try to take the first pull with the arm on my non-breathing side, which delays the pop up slightly. But trying to go much further off the walls without air, especially on 200s and higher, seems to hurt me more than help. Bottom line: maybe the next time you do a 1650 in practice, try swimming without any bilateral breathing and see if this slows you down, speeds you up, or leaves things unchanged. If either of the latter two prove the case, I say abandon the strategy unless it makes you feel more comfortable during a race.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

__steve__ — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:22:47 GMT

What breathing pattern did you use, same as the race?

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:48:32 GMT

I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me female swimmers are much more likely to breathe bilaterally than males are. My theory is that females are more likely to listen to their coaches' advice and lots of coaches advocate breathing to both sides. That's funny ;-) Truth of the matter though is well. Two very simple things: 1. Females have a higher turnover. Even if they'd breathe every 3 then endup breathing more often than for instance when GBrain is breathing every 3 (given his turnover rate). 2. Females have a lowerbody that floats better, which means that with a proper technique they can really swim real energy efficient 2 beat kick. Bring me any coach that advocates restricting O2 intake during a threshold based event, I may have a word or two for him.... Principle is relatively simple. It's a matter of bottleneck. You don't want your performance to be limited by O2 Accumulated deficit for the good reason that at threshold level, the bottleneck should (hopefully) not be there. Things are different at Vo2Peak or even over this level. And by the way, same goes with those nicely fashioned push off with dolphin kicking (underwater). Very nice when you see world class athletes performing these, but they can be very harmful for performance over 1500. They can literally kill your event.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:30:00 GMT

You might try always breathing to the same side of the pool, so that you breathe to your own right one way and your own left the other way. This is what I often do. Recently, I joined a squad - we train in a choppy pool. I usually lead sets or start 2nd or 3rd. I like to breathe on this inside lane side (that would be left hand side) to go then on the rope side (right side) on way back. Anyway, no matter the pattern, this is how I maintain this crucial ability, which is to be able to see the competition wherever it is. I even think about breathing on the side at butterfly once in a while for the same reason. As to the balance thing. I see nothing wrong in specializing each arm. The arm on the side you breathe has a different role than the arm on the non breathing side, and there's nothing wrong with that. Indirectly, I guess I am against breathing every 3, unless in certain exceptions (females, 2beat kickers with high turnover etc).

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:47:37 GMT

I am curious about the bilateral breathing. Do you do this because you can detect actual improvement in your swimming performance, or do you do it based on the theoretical belief that it balances your stroke in some way? I started breathing bilaterally a few years ago primarily to deal with impingement problems in my left shoulder. It took quite awhile for it to feel natural. Now it does. My 400 free on Saturday was a Masters best for me, and I was breathing bilaterally the entire way. I think that my stroke may be more efficient because I am more symmetric. But the question about oxygen debt in longer races is a legitimate one. At Beijing all of the swimmers in the final of the 1500 were breathing every other. Taking one SDK off the wall on every turn was a struggle initially, now my turns don't feel right if I don't.

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

knelson — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:18:59 GMT

RE: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

ourswimmer — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 02:10:33 GMT

I started breathing bilaterally a few years ago primarily to deal with impingement problems in my left shoulder. It took quite awhile for it to feel natural. Now it does. My 400 free on Saturday was a Masters best for me, and I was breathing bilaterally the entire way. I think that my stroke may be more efficient because I am more symmetric. But the question about oxygen debt in longer races is a legitimate one. At Beijing all of the swimmers in the final of the 1500 were breathing every other. You might try always breathing to the same side of the pool, so that you breathe to your own right one way and your own left the other way. I used to breathe every third arm for similar reasons as you, but I am faster with more oxygen.