Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:09:12 GMT

Coach, thank you very much. I am not sure what an optimal ratio is for a the kick/pull/swim times. For instance, my 25 yard from a push is about a :12. My kick is about a :15 or :14. I have not tested my pull buoy time but I will. What is optimal in your view? What is your best 50 yd. Free time? I can tell you a bit more if I knew that time. The push off time needs to be very accurate. I have my swimmers push off when they hear the send-off beep or wait until they see the 00's. I also have them get a partner and have them use a watch. Anyway, please get back to me. Good luck!!!

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:48:14 GMT

Here are a couple things you might want to do. I think you could increase speed by timing (separately) your 25 kick, 25 pull (isolated with a pull buoy) and 25 swim. My point is that only by objectively dissecting each component of your stroke can you start focusing on the things you need to improve so you can drop some time. You and your coach should be able to come up with that one thing you can work on to drop some time. On the EVF side of things, there’s an optimum angle of your EVF. and when you find it, do some isometrics so your shoulders can accommodate the new position. You might also look at your hand position and angles that your wrist creates. A more open but solid hand and less wrist bend can make significant differences in a sprinter’s time. I’m rambling so, I’ll stop by saying, Good luck!

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

mikeh — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:53:03 GMT

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

mikeh — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 04:19:12 GMT

If developmental coaches would stop teaching beginners the “S” shaped pulling pattern and start teaching them to use a pulling pattern similar to a Adlington, Hackett, Thorpe, Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen and Phelps, their swimmers would improve much faster. For years I tried to incorporate the high-elbow pull into my swimming. While I found it very efficient, I could not find a way to sprint effectively with it. The stroke simply took too long, and pulled too much water, to increase stroke rate to the point where I coul sprint 50 yards with it. Any suggestions would be welcome.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:38:17 GMT

I'm on my 3rd week of working on trying to get both elbows up and use the forearm/hand as a paddle (EVF swimming, right?). I believe I am doing it correctly from watching underwater. My observations: 1. much more water pressure felt, feels like grabbing a lot of water 2. both shoulders,biceps, and wrists hurt 3. rhythm is screwed up, but am slowly getting that back 4. can maintain EVF for 100% of time for 100yds, about 90% of time for 400 yds, about 70% of time for 1500yds 5. No gigantic improvement in times or fewer strokes Giving it 8 weeks and after that if muscles still hurt and no more improvement......forgot it!! I'll just make it up on the bike. You don't get it. EVF isn't a style of elbow up, rotation, etc. Early vertical forearm means just that, try to get you arm in a vertical position, the earlier the better. Don't let anyone tell you that an EVF has to be like Rebecca Adlington or the opposite like Alain Bernard. You use a vertical arm position and nothing can change that except drowning. So instead of trying to mold your stroke to a preconcieved template, try to adjust the pulling pattern you had and make some changes if any, that will help you reduce stroke rate and decrease time. If you dismiss an early vertical position you're replacing it with a later vertical position and any good coach will tell you a late vertical forearm (dropped elblow)position is simply poor swimming technique. And if you're doing something that hurts your shoulder, as a coach, I'd tell you to stop it. So stop it! Good luck

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

knelson — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:37:13 GMT

Thanks for the question and I hope that I've given a decent answer. Yes, I follow you now.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

__steve__ — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:24:10 GMT

I'm at a point now that any improvement depends on me buying an underwater video camera.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

cantwait4bike — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:30:07 GMT

tomtopo Excellent discussion. While not as experienced as you I completely agree with your views on EVF. However, instead of 6 - 8 weeks this has taken me longer and continues to be one of my prime training drills. I'm on my 3rd week of working on trying to get both elbows up and use the forearm/hand as a paddle (EVF swimming, right?). I believe I am doing it correctly from watching underwater. My observations: 1. much more water pressure felt, feels like grabbing a lot of water 2. both shoulders,biceps, and wrists hurt 3. rhythm is screwed up, but am slowly getting that back 4. can maintain EVF for 100% of time for 100yds, about 90% of time for 400 yds, about 70% of time for 1500yds 5. No gigantic improvement in times or fewer strokes Giving it 8 weeks and after that if muscles still hurt and no more improvement......forgot it!! I'll just make it up on the bike.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:48:14 GMT

Although not directed to me, I'm glad you cleared the air on that one. It did seem out of character for someone who spent a lot of time providing useful instructional information PS I tried your link but I was unsuccessful getting to your website. Based on the title I had to wonder if you were selling an EVF training aid. :-) Your point really shows how careful you need to be when typing. I like to talk and type away like there's no tomorrow and more is not always better. Again, I appologize to our colleague if it sounded rude. I feel a little bit better with your reply. Thanks I invented the product but do not own the company. You can find the product at techpaddle.com and there are some distributors around the country who sell them. If you'd like a pair, email me at tomtopo@netzero.com and I'll get in touch with the owner. Thanks again

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 05:36:01 GMT

I read my last submission and thought it sounded a little condescending and I didn’t mean it to come off that way. Although not directed to me, I'm glad you cleared the air on that one. It did seem out of character for someone who spent a lot of time providing useful instructional information PS I tried your link but I was unsuccessful getting to your website. Based on the title I had to wonder if you were selling an EVF training aid. :-)

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 05:22:47 GMT

I read my last submission and thought it sounded a little condescending and I didn’t mean it to come off that way. I believe a consistent and conscious effort to improve a swimmer’s stroke pattern is a never ending battle. And everyone puts their arm in a vertical position, at some point, and how early is the only question. The notion that an overt angle is required or some kind of rotation is a requisite for an EVF is ridiculous but I can see how it seems implied. Good luck!

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

knelson — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 01:42:25 GMT

One more thing about the S-pull. I don't think any coach should even utter that phrase to their swimmers. As Tom mentioned it's somewhat of a natural thing, anyway. There's really no need to emphasize it. Getting your forearm into a vertical position quickly, on the other hand, is not at all natural to most swimmers and definitely requires conscious thought.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:46:53 GMT

Every swimmer who moves with a hint of decent propulsion is using a vertical forearm position. EVF runs on a continuum from late vertical (a dropped elbow) to the earliest vertical (a high angle rotation like world record distance swimmer Rebecca Adlington). Every swimmer wants to avoid using a late vertical forearm or dropped elbow. This next statement is for everyone; a cookie-cutter definition of an EVF is simply not possible. Every swimmer wants to improve the early vertical position of their hand / forearm. How early and to what degree your shoulder muscles can achieve that critical propulsive position is dependent upon the swimmers physical limits. So the continuum of a vertical forearm will vary from swimmer to swimmer. On one end of the continuum is an Alain Bernard stroke and on the other Rebecca Adlington. The key point to improving swimming speed is to find the position that allows you to maintain peak drag force (leveraging or pressing water) for the longest time. The "S" shaped pattern is an iatrical part of maintaining peak drag force but cannot and should not be the focus for coaches of beginning swimmers. When you time yourself for 25 yards and find that a certain stroke pattern gives you the most bang for the buck (energy expenditure efficiency), you’re on the right track. Less strokes and faster times is the way you'll find your best pulling pattern. Once you've found the best pattern, duplicate the pattern very slowly in drills so muscle memory can be developed (usually 6 to 8 weeks). You're using a vertical forearm position right now (every swimmer is), how early you can put that forearm vertically is something you'll want to improve without compromising shoulder health. There’s an EVF position out there for everyone and you’ll never have to compromise your body even a little. Good luck and I hope that answers your question.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:12:05 GMT

That's a really important point. Improving a stroke pattern should be on ongoing process that should never be thought of as something you can master. If a world record holder says that she is constantly trying to improve her pulling pattern, that should say it all. Thanks for sharing that bit of information.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:13:28 GMT

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

knelson — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:57:25 GMT

a premature movement of the hand toward the midline all but kills an EVF. I'm not sure I understand this. Isn't the idea of an S shaped pull to first scull outward, then inward once the hand passes under the shoulder? How does the move toward the midline "kill" an EVF?

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:00:25 GMT

I'm not sure I understand this. Isn't the idea of an S shaped pull to first scull outward, then inward once the hand passes under the shoulder? How does the move toward the midline "kill" an EVF? When taught to beginners who do not know how to set up their stroke with an vertical forearm position (the earlier the better), a premature movement toward the midline all but eliminates a catch. I pointed out that the "S" shaped pattern is vital but when done before an effective catch is produced, you're performing a very poor stroke pattern. Again, every great swimmer and triathlete uses the "S" shaped pattern but they're great because they set their stroke up correctly. When a coach teachs beginners the "S" shaped pattern before a solid catch is built, it's a difficult stroke flaw to correct. The outward movement of the hand, or beginning of the "S" is so slight that the "S" isn't really an s. You get my drift. Thanks for the question and I hope that I've given a decent answer.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

Former Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:32:32 GMT

Coach T - EVF looks extremely shoulder intensive, though I may be wrong. If so, would someone with a history of shoulder problems (torn rotator cuff, limited mobility) avoid EVF? Thanks.

RE: Article on "S' Shaped Swimming Patterns

orca1946 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:34:42 GMT

You are correct, this will be a hard habit to change !