Elitism in Masters Swimming

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 09:01:45 GMT

Steve, You may (or may not) be able to speed up the descent of your times. I am not sure I'm an elite swimmer yet in my age group (50-54), but I came back after a 24 year layoff and in less than a year progressed from a 1:03 for the 100SCY down to 56.9 in about 1 year. Having a feel for the water, and some time when I was young hardwiring the basics, definitely helps - but so does training in a way that gives you the maximum benefit. Ande has an important tip (among many in his Swim Faster Faster series) -- anything you measure will improve if you focus on it and work hard. When I started up again I knew I needed to work on my aerobic swimming fitness, my anaerobic swimming fitness, and build muscles that I hadn't been using. My workouts interleaved these three components as much as possible, pushing myself on distance work, interval work (50's, 100's and eventually 200's), and stroke mechanics. I kept track of all times in my workouts. I tried to stay clear of garbage yards, only doing as much as I could with reasonable form, and pushing hard (defined differently for each distance). At the start my workouts would only be 1000 to 1600 yd. One year later they average about 2700 yds. I kept track of how many yards I did within 2-sec ranges for my 100 yd. times in each workout. I tried to have a pyramid with some yardage at my fastest range, and successively more in each higher range up to my cutoff speed (the 1000 yd rate for any time period). As a key measure, I tried to get my pulse into the 160-170 range at least once each workout, preferably toward the end where I was pushing when it was hardest to do so. As soon as I could finish 500 yds in less than 7:30 ( not far from your 9:00 for 500m), I made sure to do a 500 yd time trial as part of my workout at least once a week. At least one other day I tried to see how far I could go just slightly off that 500 pace. By the time I could do 1000 yds in 14 minutes. I did time trials for the 500 and the 1000 each week as part of separate workouts. At the same time, in each workout, I would do at least 3 x 100 yds on whatever interval I could stand -- to start it was 2:00, but I pushed it down to 1:50, and then 1:40 as soon as I could without falling too far behind in my 100 yd. time in these. Now it is often 1:30. The key here is to make these fast, but keep then close in times -- and slowly bring these times down over the months while slowly bringing the interval time down. At the end of the first month I could do 1:15's or 1:16's on an interval of 2:00. Now, one year later, I'm down to 1:09 on 1:30. These interval sets, especially the last one I can handle, are where my pulse hits maximum and it's mind over matter with every stroke. But I can feel the payoff as the weeks go by. I also make sure I recover before moving on to the next set where I push myself (pulse down to 90 works for me). By keeping track of all my workouts on a spreadsheet I could see that I had a natural 9 to 11 week cycle of hitting a temporary plateau (as well as feeling really tired) and then moving on to the next level. I used this to modify my training to take advantage of where I was in each cycle and get the most out of it without breaking down. One caveat. I had some incredibly fitful sleep during the first six months as my muscles were building, and repairing, and the heat output and some general muscular discomfort was quite a lot to handle. But I only went as fast as I felt I could go without overstressing my shoulders -- I backed off if I felt any twinges. Eventually my shoulders were strong enough that they felt pretty well protected and could be more easily pushed. I'm not a coach, and not yet an elite swimmer. This kind of approach may not work for everyone, and it may just work for me, but I think that working simultaneously on pushing yourself on distances and on interval work may lead to more rapid improvement. The problem with muscles is that they become habituated to doing anything, and to get them to go to the next level you need to convince them that it is expected of them. To do that you need focus, and you need a mix of little recovery time within a set, more recovery time between sets, and distance with no break. (Attached graph of best 100 yd times over the past year) What an awesome post! Thanks for sharing!

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Rykno — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:43:02 GMT

The sun rises around 5am and sets after 10pm during the summer months over here, and since we have 5 weeks vacation over here, I like doing doubles during the summer. my last few weeks of work I go to the pool before going to work, then head to the lake after dinner. while on vacation I just did two lake swims a day 3-4x/week if our evening practices were not so late at night I would be doing doubles 3x a week. as it is now I don't get home until 10pm and can't handle going back to the pool 8 hrs later.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

mattson — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 10:42:51 GMT

Honestly, their level makes novices feel uncomfortable. Most ex-serious swimmers are just happy to be able to swim for fun w/o the pressure of a coach or team counting on them and yelling at them. They truly have a lot in common w/ novices. I think this attitude does get projected, but the speed of the top swimmers is what intimidates beginners. The idea of "unintentional intimidation" reminded me of a Howard Jones song. At some point, the problem is the person who thinks they see elitism, rather than expecting others to hold back because of someone's insecurity. Under his nose was a dream come true Been there all the time and he almost knew Thoughts of people in misfortune stopped him doing things well His duty was to use it - left his pearl in the shell

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 05:42:38 GMT

Our club has two evening works, one at 6 pm and another at 7 PM. Since my my kids are swimming their age group work outs during that entire time, and I'll stick it out for a double on occasion. Usually when I think of "doubles" it means doing a 90-120 minute workout at o-dark-thirty in the morning; then coming back to the pool for another 2+ hour workout around 5 in the afternoon. That's pretty rough for adults to manage that kind of schedule AND still be useful at work, home, etc. Some of our Masters have trained with the Seniors group (elite HS/college/post-grad) where that type of workout schedule is expected.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:35:50 GMT

I was really bummed out when as a former competitive swimmer I wanted to start swimming masters and was immediately turned off by a large local club because I was not into getting up at 5:00 am, swimming doubles or spending 4 hours on a Saturday training then going out with the team for brunch. There was an obvious message that if I wasn't in with both feet then I was out. So we started a new club with old HS friends and were snubbed again at our first meet for starting a new group, instead of being welcomed for bringing 8 new USMS paying members to masters swimming. That elite attitude kept me out of USMS for almost 10 years. Just now getting back to it with another club with a much better vibe.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

knelson — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:51:20 GMT

I wanted to start swimming masters and was immediately turned off by a large local club because I was not into getting up at 5:00 am, swimming doubles or spending 4 hours on a Saturday training then going out with the team for brunch. Seriously? The number of masters swimmers doing doubles has got to be exceptionally low. My experience has been the exact opposite. Most teams are very laissez-faire: here's the workout schedule, come swim when you feel like it.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:40:29 GMT

The only time of seen this even after swimming with dozens of teams all over the US is the New Years 100 x 100's. The exception being the multisport crown that "bricks" after a swim workout.... And I beg to differ on the doubles Geek, I know of a fair amount of Masters swimmers/Triathletes doing 2 swim workouts a day. Certainly not even remotely the majority but a fair amount. Our club has two evening works, one at 6 pm and another at 7 PM. Since my my kids are swimming their age group work outs during that entire time, and I'll stick it out for a double on occasion. No one would ever confuse me for hardcore or for being a serious swimmer. Its better than getting out and waiting or going home and coming back to pick up my kids. I know the morning group has a similar situation and I think a few swimmers do the same then as well.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

orca1946 — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 05:21:39 GMT

Doubles? The only doubles we do is after a meet & that might be 2 shakes or beers !

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Paul Smith — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:47:16 GMT

I've visited and trained with a lot of USMS teams and have never come across one with a 4 hour workout. The only time of seen this even after swimming with dozens of teams all over the US is the New Years 100 x 100's. The exception being the multisport crown that "bricks" after a swim workout.... And I beg to differ on the doubles Geek, I know of a fair amount of Masters swimmers/Triathletes doing 2 swim workouts a day. Certainly not even remotely the majority but a fair amount.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

aquageek — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:03:04 GMT

Seriously? The number of masters swimmers doing doubles has got to be exceptionally low. My experience has been the exact opposite. Most teams are very laissez-faire: here's the workout schedule, come swim when you feel like it. Totally agree. Plus, the highlight of the workout week is the breakfast after the Sat morning practice. I've visited and trained with a lot of USMS teams and have never come across one with a 4 hour workout.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:01:35 GMT

Let me correct a few things: A) You are 6' 3" and have sz 7 girls feet This goes a long way in understanding the root of the passive-agressive comments made in the past by JS (and I am not talking about being 6' 3").

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:45:40 GMT

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:53:29 GMT

..... If you read an article in the general press about Masters Swimming, it usually highlights one of the "elites." Those not familiar with the program may feel intimidated by this. I have found that the hardest thing, even on a small, local level, is convincing someone that everyone is welcome...... True.... but there have also been some USMS magazine covers with run of the mill average "John Smiths". What is ironic.... is that most ex national caliber swimmers that still participate actually enjoy making stroke corrections and offering basic advice. It's a huge part of who they were so long ago. I don't think many beginner masters swimmers really understand this....... I for one love a reason to stop in the middle of a set and chat....:-) John Smith

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

__steve__ — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:34:15 GMT

Thank you for the info Dale. Since I started from scratch, I think before I structure my workouts as condition based (aerobic and endurance training), I should concentrate primarily on basics, relaxation and efficiency, for several more months until it becomes more natural. Anything over 100M for me results in a sloppy style. Nevertheless, I will definately be logging workouts into a spreadsheet now. Although I did get anxious right before I got into the water when I practiced with the team, everyone was welcoming and actually happy to have me there - they even invited me to breakfast. I am intimidated about other things - waking up at 5:30 AM after working to midnight:bed:Or even worst, the nicest pool in my area is located right in the middle of the worst part of town. I would hate to finish a good session to find my car sitting on blocks in the lot. Not too long ago, one person was attacked in the lot as she was leaving the pool! But who knows, if Masters swimming grows enough eventually there will be more pools to use and more options for swimming practices, like evening practices;).

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

TRYM_Swimmer — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:40:08 GMT

Maybe this kind of behavior is more noticeable at the bigger meets? I don't think it's a matter of behavior as of perception. If you read an article in the general press about Masters Swimming, it usually highlights one of the "elites." Those not familiar with the program may feel intimidated by this. I have found that the hardest thing, even on a small, local level, is convincing someone that everyone is welcome. We had a lady on our team who had a panic attack while swimming 100 free at the local Senior Games. She had just been intimidated by the whole scene. Took her to a Masters meet and the same thing happened, but we (almost literally) dragged her back to swim a relay. That took care of that and she eagerly awaits the next meet. When someone of lesser ability meets some of the stars who are so gracious and welcoming, it removes all doubt about who belongs. Everyone!!! The problem, as I see it, is how do we market that welcome up front while still celebrating the amazing achievements of our superstars. Solve that, and the membership should rocket.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:52:54 GMT

I think most prospective members get their exposure from mainstream press rather than USMS Swimmer. Is there such a thing as "main stream press" for masters swimming? John Smith

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

dsyphers — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:05:17 GMT

A lot of very good advice here, but I would dispute that the difference between a 7:30 time at 500 yards and a 9:00 time for 500m is not that great. When I do the math, that's a difference of 8 seconds per hundred yards. Your time on 100 yards dropped by an impressive seven seconds in a year, but you were recapturing skills that you had developed in your teens. A lot of your improvement is probably attributable to developing your aerobic base again. Rtodd's times dropped by 12 seconds over three years, which is probably more realistic for a person who is relatively new to swimming. I don't want to sound like I'm busting your chops - your strategy is detailed and sounds like it works. But I wouldn't want someone to read your very sound advice and feel like a failure if they don't drop 8 seconds off their hundred in six months or a year. If they do it over two years, it will still be pretty darn impressive. I totally agree, and didn't mean to imply that it would work for everyone the same way. The intent was to get a focus that distributes gains across the workout spectrum, and get that heart rate up when you feel like slowing down -- with enough recovery in between. I agree that someone without a background in swimming getting their times to drop 8 seconds over 2 or even 3 years is pretty darn impressive. I actually only swam two years as a teenager and then for a year each when I was 23 and 27, but I do agree that even that short history helps. What I wanted to try to get across is the thing that is really hard to learn without having been on a swim team when you are young -- namely that you see gains when you push yourself at precisely those times that you'd rather not. The pressure of the other lane swimmers, and the coach, do that for you when you're young (and you recover quickly). Trying to replicate the situation (with expanded recovery) when you're older, across the aerobic and anaerobic spectrum, may help you improve as fast as you are able. So I was just trying to note that if you practice in a rut, you'll stay in a rut. Try to push yourself in different ways, and the body will respond better (maybe not in a single year, but as fast as you can progress.)

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

TRYM_Swimmer — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:49:49 GMT

True.... but there have also been some USMS magazine covers with run of the mill average "John Smiths". What is ironic.... is that most ex national caliber swimmers that still participate actually enjoy making stroke corrections and offering basic advice. It's a huge part of who they were so long ago. I don't think many beginner masters swimmers really understand this....... I for one love a reason to stop in the middle of a set and chat....:-) John Smith I think most prospective members get their exposure from mainstream press rather than USMS Swimmer. Of course, getting more of them in circulation would help immensely in recruiting IMHO. Maybe there could be an effort to send copies to Y's, Swim clubs, etc. that could have them available in their waiting areas. And of course, meeting any member named Smith would be a life-changing event!!!

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

dsyphers — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:05:26 GMT

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Paul Smith — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:44:10 GMT

Unfortunately, my legs were made for dragging. Hip fracture 5 years ago and athritis don't make for good running. Wish I could, but its not in the cards. I don't really have the time for triathlon training either, but I appreciate the suggestion. John Smith Let me correct a few things: A) You are 6' 3" and have sz 7 girls feet B) Your ankles are the size of a blade of grass C) Why limit your whining to just the hip? We all know about your allergies, nose bleeds, paranoia, hallucinations... D) You have nothing but time because you work from home and as Tori has told us all sleep under your desk most of the day.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

rtodd — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:43:08 GMT

Unfortunately, my legs were made for dragging. Hip fracture 5 years ago and athritis don't make for good running. Wish I could, but its not in the cards. I don't really have the time for triathlon training either, but I appreciate the suggestion. John, Sorry to hear about the hip fracture. I guess the pool is the place to be. I've often thought of getting back on the bike and then doing some tri's where they only score the swim and bike. Maybe the bike is agreable with your hip? unless that is how you fractured it!

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

rtodd — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:19:38 GMT

I attached a graph I used to show advanced progression. What happened from April to November 2007? Steve, thanks for the graph! When I learned to swim, I was freestyle only for quite a while, so at meets I was only focused on the free since that was all I had the ability to do. As I learned the strokes, I started swimming other events at meets and so the 100 free may have suffered a while. For my age group I think "elite" would be sub 50 for SCY, so I have alot of work to do. That is why I say maybe as long as 8 years with no swimming background. I am giving myself another three years and I think my progression will slow down. For someone with a big swimming background getting back into it, I think the time is WAY less since the technique is always hard wired and it is just a matter of conditioning. I think you can get that in 1-2 years of steady training. Just my guess.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

Former Member — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:42:43 GMT

John, Have you thought of triathlon? I've heard of a few elite swimmers who turned to it for a fresh challenge. Running is arguably the most important part of triathlon so it would be something new. It may be just the thing to avoid the grind of just pool swimming. Unfortunately, my legs were made for dragging. Hip fracture 5 years ago and athritis don't make for good running. Wish I could, but its not in the cards. I don't really have the time for triathlon training either, but I appreciate the suggestion. John Smith

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

__steve__ — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 11:04:55 GMT

My question for elite swimmers, how much longer until I start getting fast? It's been 15 months and I can't do 50M under 34 seconds (push-off start) and 500M is worst (9:00). The first 6 months of swimming showed consistant progress. Then from there on, no matter how hard I trained or my level of strength and fitness, improvements were just marginal (already 15 months swimming now). Recently though, I did improve some by working on correcting discovered errors (hands crossing, drag from body position). Unfortunately, I work until midnight making it difficult to attend team practices so I am left with practicing alone, but I did attend one. A typical workout will always have 10-15 x 50M on a long restfull interval, like 2:00 so I don't get sloppy and relapse into bad technique. I also pay attention to the feel of water drag and try to distinguish between bad and positive feel, then I do drills I read on here and go-swim. One thing I do think I should look in to is an underwater camera. Nevertheless, I'm left with some questions. So, how many years does it take to get the hang of this, 3 - 5 years (If so, this will put me in the 45-50year group:agree: when time comes)? Is improvement gradual or spontaneous? Any suggestions for an underwater camera that's cheap, but good enough to get the job done? Thank you very much for reading.

RE: Elitism in Masters Swimming

swimmj — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:40:42 GMT

The one exception is backstroke...I've never figured out a good way to pass that doesn't involve turning over on my front. I usually just avoid the stroke if I'm in a lane with multiple slower swimmers. I have the answer on backstroke - avoid it at all times as it's Eeeevil. LOL. Seriously, an open discussion is best. I don't mind a foot tap if I'm swimming with someone much speedier - but it's usually not needed as I know exactly where he is and I'm working very hard to try to finish a swim without being lapped. I'm lucky in that we have 10 lanes available to us and only rarely do I get put in a lane with a big speed difference. The one time I had to share a lane with a super fast guy, we were swimming a mixed free and IM set in a lane with ladders on the side so you could not just split it. He's 6'7", with a wing span to match, so I just stayed in streamline and kicked on fly to avoid crunching when facing him oncoming and he either passed or flipped early when needed. It wasn't ideal, but we never crashed and we got the workout done. I do know at least one person on my team who absolutely hates for anyone to tap her toes. As always, open and frank discussion helps to avoid misunderstandings.