Freestyle technique

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:07:24 GMT

What is a niggle pwolf66 you seem to understand. Is this what it means??? niggle Verb 1. to worry slightly 2. to find fault continually Noun 1. a small worry or doubt 2. a trivial objection or complaint niggling adj

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:34:06 GMT

Could you try and finish this thought? Because it's very confusing and I have no idea what you are trying to say. If a swimmer is forced to not pull, then there's pretty much only one other way to to get across the pool. Sorry (French is my mother tongue) I just meant that I have witnessed over time that when an age grouper faces a shoulder or an elbow niggle they are forced (like you say) to kick a lot. Often, this kicking regiment end up having a surprisingly favorable impact on overall full stroke performance.

RE: Freestyle technique

pwolf66 — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 09:48:32 GMT

Sorry (French is my mother tongue) I just meant that I have witnessed over time that when an age grouper faces a shoulder or an elbow niggle they are forced (like you say) to kick a lot. Often, this kicking regiment end up having a surprisingly favorable impact on overall full stroke performance. Ah, now I get it. Thanks for the clarification.

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 05:53:50 GMT

What is a niggle pwolf66 you seem to understand. It's an expression I got from a brit forums :) And yes it means having an issue with something. Sorry for being so cryptic, not done on purpose. I'll reajust :)

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:42:10 GMT

By saying top 10 - I was never posted 10th or 9th or 8th. and I never cared. I can remember beating the #1 ranked swimmers on many occassions. New thanks for the critique. Just wonder what is your ranking in the world??? You had to live in my shoes to understand why I did not train very hard. I swam by stroke technique only. I happen to believe in full stroke training my opinion. You are welcome to kick your guts out along with the other guys who believe kick is the only thing that counts. It so happened I did not train as much as others but I did well for my health situation at the time.

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:19:10 GMT

I do not believe kick sets are important. I can tell you this, If I can beat a swimmer in a kick race, there is 95% chance I can beat him if we compete in the same race with full stroke. BTW, that's why you were in the top 10 and not #1, you needed a few kick sets to speed up

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 12:57:30 GMT

I did practice kicking on occasion. When ther was no alternative, if the pool was so full there was no lane to train in I held onto the wall and kicked furiously for about 10 minutes. (see? doesn't hurt admitting hunh? :D ... kidding here) As a matter of fact, I don't know what your experience in coaching kids (age groupers) is, but often, when a kid is forced to not pull, then need to spend a lot of time kicking. Have you noticed that often times, these unscheduled kick training camps turn out to be beneficial for the full stroke.

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 09:39:25 GMT

I am with George on this one. In my case being able to pull and kick seperately did not mean that I could combine them in a full stroke swim. I spent quite a lot of time trying to coordinate the arm stroke and kick without success. It just felt not right because I could feel my legs were somehow disconnected to my arm stroke. Only recently did I begin to figure out how to coordinate them though probably still not complete correct. But it felt just different. More natural and probably more efficient. But I am just a novice swimmer. What you guys were discussing are more advanced and way past the basic level of mine.

RE: Freestyle technique

pwolf66 — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 09:08:21 GMT

As a matter of fact, I don't know what your experience in coaching kids (age groupers) is, but often, when a kid is forced to not pull, then need to spend a lot of time kicking. Could you try and finish this thought? Because it's very confusing and I have no idea what you are trying to say. If a swimmer is forced to not pull, then there's pretty much only one other way to to get across the pool.

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 07:28:01 GMT

I did practice kicking on occasion. When ther was no alternative, if the pool was so full there was no lane to train in I held onto the wall and kicked furiously for about 10 minutes.

RE: Freestyle technique

__steve__ — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 06:22:44 GMT

I notice my breath is the culprit of loosing kick rhythm. Once I get my kick I should be ready to go faster

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 05:36:57 GMT

BTW, that's why you were in the top 10 and not #1, you needed a few kick sets to speed up I have the greatest respect for those who managed to find their way to the top of the food chain, no matter when that happened. Being the best (or among the bests) has never been easy and certainly never will. I truly believe that by putting a lot of emphasis on technique, at a time where several others would only focus on developing fitness, George made a very solid point. In that, he may be seen as a precursor. That being said, I think it's only fair to state that the face of swimming has changed considerably in the last 40 to 50 years, just like with any other sports (Ice hockey, American Football, Track and fields etc). What was good back then may not be sufficient now. Nowadays, it is fair to state that you have to have both an outstanding technique and an outstanding level of fitness across the board in order to try and beat Michael Phelps. And any swimmer training with this goal in mind and thinking for just one minute that it is possible to do so by neglecting any aspect of swimming will undoubtedly fail.

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:30:48 GMT

I just watched a video on history channel, Marilyn Bell swimming accross Lake Ontario. Her elbows were high and hands almost touching the water, Her body rotation was quite astounding to me, she used a six beat kick. Although I remember when I swam in heavy seas I would rotate my whole body in order to breathe without lifting my head. I will see if I can download her swim stroke. Another question I have, when it comes to the freestyle is the recovery. How high out of the water should people recovery their arms? Should they be really high out of the water or just enough to clear the water to get back to the front? And does the recovery swing out to the side or circle directly over the top? Any thoughts would be great!

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:40:03 GMT

Another question I have, when it comes to the freestyle is the recovery. How high out of the water should people recovery their arms? Should they be really high out of the water or just enough to clear the water to get back to the front? And does the recovery swing out to the side or circle directly over the top? Any thoughts would be great!

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:34:26 GMT

I saw a video of an Australian who is coaching at Texas describe his belief that for drop-dead sprinting you should use a rotary motion with an almost downward scooping motion as the arm enters the water. This sounds just about perfect to me. If I were a drop-dead sprinter (no frickin' way), that's the technique I'd be aiming for, although I'd also have the name of a good shoulder surgeon handy. Again, I can't remember the coach's name or where I saw it, but I'm sure someone knows. -LBJ It was Brett Hawke, who is the head coach at Auburn. He is talking about the "straight arm catch"

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:32:03 GMT

Let me add my $0.02: I am a very "hip-centric" swimmer. I don't try to roll as a unit, rather the mental imagery I use is that of a dropped cat landing on its feet. Cats initiate their body roll by starting to rotate the lower body at the hips first and the upper body is just slightly behind the lower. YouTube - Cat Flip

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:19:43 GMT

I wonder if "hip-driven" just means coordinating the entire body during the swim. I think that there's indeed a lot of it. Coordinating the entire body around the FreeStyle driving shaft. Bringing the focus away from upper body down to mid body to insure better integration of all its components maybe? Something like that I guess. Swimming with an all wheel drive transmission instead of a front wheels only? I donno.

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:18:57 GMT

I think you're right about coordination. It has to do with rigidity. Being hip-focused, mentally, means being stiff enough to rotate as a unit. Let me add my $0.02: I am a very "hip-centric" swimmer. I don't try to roll as a unit, rather the mental imagery I use is that of a dropped cat landing on its feet. Cats initiate their body roll by starting to rotate the lower body at the hips first and the upper body is just slightly behind the lower. At least that is how it feels when I am feeling very good about my stroke. I saw a video somewhere of Natalie Coughlin explaining that she thinks in a similar way, but she explained it as raising the one hip as the lead motion. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it. I've also found that by concentrating on my hips as the thing that initiates my stroke, I can swim forever, but if I think about my arms in this way I tire much quicker. I think this has to do with the relative muscle masses of the shoulders vs. the core muscles. That, plus it puts less stress on my shoulders and makes EVF much easier and less painful. (EVF is a trick I added this year - zowie!) However, I would be willing to bet that swimming is one the verge of a better understanding of technique as it applies to the various distances. What will shake out of this is that the longer the distance, the more the hips are focused on and the shorter the distance, the more the arms are focused on. Furthermore, I'd bet that very short distances will have NO front quadrant swimming and that as the distance gets longer, the more you will see some front quadrant technique. (NOT CATCH-UP.) The "one-size-fits-all" approach that we've seen - be it copying a certain swimmer's technique regardless of the distance or subscribing to a rigid school of thought - is over. I saw a video of an Australian who is coaching at Texas describe his belief that for drop-dead sprinting you should use a rotary motion with an almost downward scooping motion as the arm enters the water. This sounds just about perfect to me. If I were a drop-dead sprinter (no frickin' way), that's the technique I'd be aiming for, although I'd also have the name of a good shoulder surgeon handy. Again, I can't remember the coach's name or where I saw it, but I'm sure someone knows. -LBJ

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:42:02 GMT

Mattson I do not want to become faster I just want to have the best technique I can. A lot are striving to be the fastest and believe the kick is the most important thing in swimming. The maximum a kick can offer is as some say 20%. I think it is a whole body effort. Hip driven is a term that someone has invented, to explain a fully coordinated swim sroke. Some will say it is shoulder driven. They of course are trying to say correct the hip motion and you will swim better. Some are saying it is the kick that does this. What I do when I am helping someone I start with the glide off the wall. Then the no splash hand entry. Extend let the hand drift down to the catch and my goodness the shoulder rolls as the hand reaches the catch. Wow before you know it the hips have moved automatically (this is what they call hip driven). The legs are kicking when doing the six beat kick because the body rolls the legs do not just kick staight up and down. The hand and fore arm press against the water and grab the imaginary wall and push against this wall and the body moves forward. Dont let your elbow drop or you lose your hold on that wall. Keep pressing on that wall until your hand touches your thigh(the finish). A no splash exit from the finish and repeat. I am not going to say exactly how you get the arms over the top of the water other then I lik a bent arm recovery that I use for marathon swimming or a more straight arm aproach that I used in sprints (1954) you can see this in my avatar.

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:40:12 GMT

Instead of comparing different Olympic-level swimmers, how about comparing them to a run-of-the-mill palooka that you see thrashing :drown: during lap swims? In the majority of the cases I see, the legs/hips and upper body seem to act independently of each other. I wonder if "hip-driven" just means coordinating the entire body during the swim. I like looking at bad swimmers to figure out how to make good swimmers better. The deficits seem to be universal; almost all bad swimmers have the same technique! I think you're right about coordination. It has to do with rigidity. Being hip-focused, mentally, means being stiff enough to rotate as a unit.

RE: Freestyle technique

__steve__ — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:14:41 GMT

Does the following quote define “hip-driven” or is it something else? “Lean into the water with your upper trunk (to balance) so your suit is just breaking the surface; rotate your hips around your spinal axis (to propel), getting them completely out of the way as each hand passes through; and think of your arms more as extenders for increasing the length of your body line--which automatically makes you faster--than as pulling tools.” Terry Laughlin If I were to think about this and everything else while swimming I would sink. The cat idea say's it all - the hips (center of gravity) lead and everything elso falls suit Another question I have, when it comes to the freestyle is the recovery. How high out of the water should people recovery their arms? +1 for this question, I see big differences between videos of top swimmers, one guy looks like a windmill (Kilm I think)

RE: Freestyle technique

dsyphers — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 11:23:43 GMT

The synergy between the kick and the stroke is important. You need to be strong in both. When my kick is strong I can feel that it allows my arms to do more. My body position gets more advantageous with a strong kick, and I start to feel a little bit like I'm crawling over the water. So I use kick sets to try to get my kick stronger so I can take advantage of it with my stroke. The real power comes from the stroke, but the kick is a set-up that allows you to get more out of the stroke. Every now and then my posterior tibial tendonitis (or ankle tendonitis) kicks in and I have to back off on the kick a bit. The difference in my overall speed is quite obvious, and makes it clear how important the synergy is.

RE: Freestyle technique

mattson — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 09:53:51 GMT

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 16:22:56 GMT

What make us swim better is the interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects. It is not what the legs, the hips, the shoulder, the arms, or the hands do by them selves. It is when they are assembled and work together. A big kick will not do it. A perfect arm stroke will not do it. Everything you do must be combined (a synergy). I couldn't agree more. In French we refer to this as Addition. The full stroke should be greater than the sum of all parts, hence the need for a bunch of integration drills. But I guess that should be the subject of a new discussion ;-) Anyway, cheers for bringing this key aspect, it is not often brought on the table in discussion forums I find.

RE: Freestyle technique

Former Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:15:38 GMT

So...kick-only practicing is not important (I know it's not what you think) I guess it depends for who. Some sprinters really have a stroke built upon kicking. I remember a 50m specialist (couldn't swim a 100, I think he was worth 59) who's main preparation for a 50m (believe it or not) was some gym work (very very heavy leg press sets, lat pulldown etc), sculling and endless kick sets in the pool. He came very close to go under 23sec SCM (for a Varsity level swimmer), working as a swim instructor and basically training few weeks into provincials (qualifier for nationals) and nationals. I also remember this master swimmer with a belly. Not a former elite swimmer, just the ordinary working man who swam for fun. His thing was kick sets. He could do 1:25 100m routinely. The kind of guy that if you'd write 30x100kick off 2min on the board, he'd be grateful. His 100m Free SCM was under the minute (no previous background in swimming), mostly based on huge kick and incredibly slow stroke rate (long distance per stroke supported by the double-V8 kicking engine).