2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Betsy — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:21:57 GMT

I read the article to mean that you can't keep doing the same times as you age. I think the article is wrong that 50 is the point of decline. I have never reached times that I did as a kid, but my best Masters times were at 50. My experience is that after 60, you can't hold on to your best times. June Krauser gave me good advice years ago: "Don't look back. Establish PRs for each group and be happy with that. If you keep swimming new events, you can get a PR." Health issues are always a concern. Many of us have various ills that cause problems at times. When I discuss my swimming and health with others in my age group (65-69), the best I can say is "I am swimming well. There is nothing wrong at the moment."

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

The Fortress — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:21:35 GMT

Ironically, Fort and Jazzbone left the secret sprinter handbook out on deck the other day and I stumbled upon it. It was actually one page long and printed on a post it note. Here is what it says for a typical workout: Drive to pool, rest 30 minutes Walk inside, chat 30 minutes Change in locker room, rest 10 minutes Main set - 6 X 12.5 @ 8:00 minutes Cool down in shower, dress, return to car Claim a 2 hour workout on the forum You forgot: Go to gym and do 4-5 exercises Sit in whirlpool Eat after Rag on people who need DVDs to work out

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:12:24 GMT

Here's around 20 good reason reasons why that article is all hogwash. 50 Freestyle SCY Men 50-54 (2009) # Name Age Club LMSC Time 1 Ambrose Gaines 50 BLU Florida 21.38 2 Jack R Groselle 54 O*H* Lake Erie 21.97 3 Richard F Kammerer 51 RICE Gulf 22.26 4 Jerry Spencer 50 ARKM Arkansas 22.39 5 John L Oberto 50 CVAS Pacific 22.45 6 Barry Roth 54 ARIZ Arizona 22.50 7 Mike L Schmitz 50 MICH Michigan 22.58 8 Fritz W Homans 51 MESC New England 22.68 9 Maxwell B Stinchcombe 52 TXLA South Texas 22.77 10 Joe Wotton 50 GOLD Florida Gold Coast 22.78 100 Freestyle SCY Men 50-54 (2009) # Name Age Club LMSC Time 1 Ambrose Gaines 50 BLU Florida 46.59 2 Jack R Groselle 54 O*H* Lake Erie 47.92 3 Bob Bugg 51 GAJA Georgia 48.77 4 Rick Abbott 53 AKMS Alaska 49.35 5 Rick Kammerer 51 RICE Gulf 49.47 6 Mike L Schmitz 50 MICH Michigan 49.48 7 Fritz W Homans 51 MESC New England 49.66 8 Maxwell B Stinchcombe 52 TXLA South Texas 49.67 9 Michael J Blatt 53 VCM Southern Pacific 49.71 10 Michael T Mann 54 CMS Colorado 49.89

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

aquageek — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:02:12 GMT

But does sprinting require any training at all? Ironically, Fort and Jazzbone left the secret sprinter handbook out on deck the other day and I stumbled upon it. It was actually one page long and printed on a post it note. Here is what it says for a typical workout: Drive to pool, rest 30 minutes Walk inside, chat 30 minutes Change in locker room, rest 10 minutes Main set - 6 X 12.5 @ 8:00 minutes Cool down in shower, dress, return to car Claim a 2 hour workout on the forum

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:38:41 GMT

Here's around 20 good reason reasons why that article is all hogwash. But does sprinting require any training at all? Is it even real racing? I don't think there is enough time in a 50 free for my HR to get above 100... :)

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:10:20 GMT

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:39:20 GMT

But does sprinting require any training at all? Is it even real racing? I don't think there is enough time in a 50 free for my HR to get above 100... :) basically what it comes down to is you are not strong enough physically to get your heart rate up without extended excercise. That is cool, I wouldn't be bragging about it, though.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Glenn — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 02:02:48 GMT

Swimming technique, mental preparedness, goggles, better designed workouts, these have been the difference for me in my times from college days (1970) to now. I don't plan to slow down. I expect that my best times are still ahead of me!!!:banana: LCM 50 free 20 - 26.74 55 - 28.82 60 - 28.32 200 free 20 - 2:15.75 55 - 2:21.23 60 - 2:22.10 400 free 20 - 5:04.20 55 - 5:02.97 60 - 5:01.81 800 free 20 - 10:47.96 55 - 10:50.90 60 - 10:34.50

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 01:29:20 GMT

June Krauser gave me good advice years ago: "Don't look back. Establish PRs for each group and be happy with that." I've always liked this kind of advice. Every 5 years you get to start fresh; it takes the sting out of a birthday, especially a "big" one like 40 or 50 or 60 (as they say, it sure beats the alternative). Every year, my general goals for a particular event in order of increasing difficulty are: -- improve my time on an age-adjusted scale like this one. -- beat last year's time. -- set a new PR for my current age group (though that is easier than the previous goal if you just aged up...:))

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:02:25 GMT

I didn't call anyone a ninny Don't fret, I call myself a ninny. Some other sage here just beat me to it. I just said we probably need to push our kids a bit harder You say push, I say guide. Semantics I guess. To keep to topic, maybe we should hand out a ribbon to every 50-year-old who doesn't want a burst aorta. I'll bet the majority of ribbions would be picked up at that meet.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:47:38 GMT

Patrick is right that it sure doesn't appear that the U.S. produces enough people with advanced degrees and engineers, etc. to meet our needs. Tim Getting a PhD in chemical engineering will get you a job with a starting pay of atleast $90K. Get an MBA and you make, well, more (Not to menton how much easier it is!! I toyed with an stats major for about 2 quarters. Then I woke up.) Besides Goldman will pay engineers and statisticians a heck of alot more than, well, anyone else. I dont have data to support it, but I think that is why there is a dearth of engineers on the "field" level. Oh and to get back on topic, the article was also misogynistic. WSJ so no big surprise there...

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Tim L — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 10:38:28 GMT

The idea that our schools do not compete on a global level is a complete farce perpetrated by folks with a political agenda. Well meaning but unaware people so earnestly believe this, though, that people look at you funny when you disagree. Here are the facts: In the US we do not track our children. Every child takes math, english, history, science, some PE, some fine arts and a few electives. When our kids are tested against other countries we take an average sample (typically from Minnesota public schools, FYI). These tests are then compared against students who are tracked towards math or science careers in their countries. It is this simple: our average are compared against other coutries best. Well no kidding we don't do as well. I don't believe I bashed the U.S. schools, I think I just said we probably need to push our kids a bit harder to excel on average. My thinking is that it is often times the parents that let them slack too much and those are the same parents that seem to blame the schools when their kid falls behind. My wife and I made a decision to keep our kids in the local public school that was not rated as high as other alternatives because we believe in public education. It has worked out well so far. I am sure statistics regarding education are manipulated and I am sure you can write a book that makes the case that everything is fine. Obviously, in countries like India and China they have huge segments of their population that have little education, but they also produce a ton of people (probably as many or more than the U.S.) with advanced degrees. I don't recall when I entered the work force thinking that there would be any competition for a job from a non-U.S. resident. However, now you compete against immigrants as well as oursourcing in many cases for that first job and through-out your working life. Patrick is right that it sure doesn't appear that the U.S. produces enough people with advanced degrees and engineers, etc. to meet our needs. Tim

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:54:46 GMT

. . . I have been trying to hire Masters' and PhD engineers, mathematicians, statisticians and other analytical types for well over a decade ... and have mostly learned about the intricacies of our H1B, L1, B1, etc. immigration process. If I pursued a "hire American" only policy, my last three companies would be woefully lacking in staff primarily because there are so few American students even in those programs. . . As an actuary, I see the same thing in hiring - a lot of immigrants on visas vying for well-paid jobs. I've also worked with people in other countries and I think their average worker is more adept than our average worker. I think America's education model worked well in the 19th and 20th Centuries, when we needed a few brilliant people and a minimally competent work force that had learned to show up on time and move to the next task when the bell rang. Today we need a lot more people who are quite bright and capable to create models and procedures that the average person can follow. (Think of a person creating a database that a whole bunch of people have to learn how to use.) The bar for what constitutes minimal competence has risen. Today you have to be able to read with comprehension and to type, among other things. In the past you had to be bright enough to do factory shift work. The reasons for our failure to produce people who can do these things quickly move into political philosophy, and I don't want to go there. All that said, I don't think handing out ribbons to every 8-year-old at the Y has contributed much to our current state. To keep to topic, maybe we should hand out a ribbon to every 50-year-old who doesn't want a burst aorta.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Bobinator — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:42:49 GMT

As a former successful runner I understand where this author is coming from. It was quite demeaning to me to have to quit competitive running (osteo-arthritis left knee/an 8 year bout with hamstring issues too) and become a swimmer. I am a competitive person who used to do very well in running. In swimming I am the skinny old lady who beats the water to death and doesn't move very fast. In running my opinion counted, in swimming I keep my mouth shut so I won't get laughed at quite as much. In the end though it's all fine. I am still able to maintain a high level of fitness (inefficient swimmers really have to tax themselves to keep up w/efficient swimmers in workouts), and I have met a ton of great swimming friends who I enjoy communicating with via e-mail, forums, and in person too! I think it's very cool that so many people are able to compete at a high level to a ripe old age. I love to watch them, and almost live vicariously through their feats. I feel fine with giving whatever I have to give in my workouts....it all boils down to respect of yourself and the type of goals you have for yourself. It's okay if your body limits you as long as you are okay with it yourself! :cane:

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:53:06 GMT

Humans are competitive, there are no formulas, each of us have to find a way to compete, be happy with the result and keep the enjoy to workout. There has to be a balance between being competitive and be able to perform according to age. Each individual has to find that balance.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:27:53 GMT

sure ... some of them are taught this at the upper end of the spectrum, but I think we as a nation are generally guilty of setting the bar too low for our children ... if you have time and interest, though, check out http://www.2mminutes.com/ to see what our typical kids are up against when competing now and in the future in the global economy. "How a student spends their Two Million Minutes - in class, at home studying, playing sports, working, sleeping, socializing or just goofing off -- will affect their economic prospects for the rest of their lives." I think that there has been a sea change in what is expected of our children today. After high school (during which time neither I nor my parents were obsessing about my economic prospects and how to fill the two million minutes--which is not to say that I did not study), I spent the next eight million minutes preparing for my career.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:01:44 GMT

If you take health issues off the table, that article is bull****. I'm only 42, but certainly expect to be competing when I'm over 50. I'm not naive enough to think I'll be faster than my 42-year-old self, in the same way I'm nowhere near my 22-year-old self. But, I'll sure be racing the guy next to me, regardless of his age and doing my best to slow down how fast I slow down. The article was probably written by one of those ninnies who believe that little kids should be given "participation awards" and not place-based awards. Life is called survival of the fittest for a reason.:bitching: Amen! Word! Right On! Damn ninnies are have caused people in this society to lose their freaking backbone.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 15:50:53 GMT

The sooner we teach our kids that they're competing in all aspects of their lives, the better off they'll be. I believe they are taught that lesson well. Children are placed on waiting lists for private schools before they are even born. Their free time is filled with extracurricular activities at which they are expected to excel. Then their parents spend tens of thousands of dollars on consultants to assist them in the college application process.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 15:02:17 GMT

If it's at all any reassurance, our sport relies heavily on technique. You can always refine something to make yourself more efficient. Sure we all slow down, but there will always be some give and take between being super fit, or having great skills. If you want to run or bike fast, just do more of it and pound yourself into the ground while trying. That approach doesn't necessarily apply to swimmers who like to remain competitive amongst their peers. from the article: What a toad. That's putting it mildly. :)

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:47:31 GMT

However, I thought Patrick was just saying that our general population is not pushed hard enough to excel when compared with other countries and I absolutely agree. The idea that our schools do not compete on a global level is a complete farce perpetrated by folks with a political agenda. Well meaning but unaware people so earnestly believe this, though, that people look at you funny when you disagree. Here are the facts: In the US we do not track our children. Every child takes math, english, history, science, some PE, some fine arts and a few electives. When our kids are tested against other countries we take an average sample (typically from Minnesota public schools, FYI). These tests are then compared against students who are tracked towards math or science careers in their countries. It is this simple: our average are compared against other coutries best. Well no kidding we don't do as well. My source: The Maufactured Crisis. Our schools are just fine, though of course I hope we keep trying to make them better. One thing for sure: no one goes to Stanford without planning and wanting. Then you still have to get lucky.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

The Fortress — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:56:40 GMT

How a student spends their Two Million Minutes - in class, at home studying, playing sports, working, sleeping, socializing or just goofing off -- will affect their economic prospects for the rest of their lives. I think that there has been a sea change in what is expected of our children today. After high school (during which time neither I nor my parents were obsessing about my economic prospects and how to fill the two million minutes--which is not to say that I did not study), I spent the next eight million minutes preparing for my career. Me too, and I agree with Gull. Where I live, it's cutthroat competitive and fun/free time is a seemingly low priority. I find myself trying to protect this for my kids rather than emphasize even more work, more competing. That's naturally built in to the fabric of their daily lives. College admissions folks tell me they can often spot those consultant-aided college applications. Agree with Jon and Quick on the "toad" comment. Really pathetic.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Patrick W. Brundage — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:06:45 GMT

I believe they are taught that lesson well. Children are placed on waiting lists for private schools before they are even born. Their free time is filled with extracurricular activities at which they are expected to excel. Then their parents spend tens of thousands of dollars on consultants to assist them in the college application process. sure ... some of them are taught this at the upper end of the spectrum, but I think we as a nation are generally guilty of setting the bar too low for our children ... if you have time and interest, though, check out http://www.2mminutes.com/ to see what our typical kids are up against when competing now and in the future in the global economy.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Patrick W. Brundage — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:58:36 GMT

The idea that our schools do not compete on a global level is a complete farce perpetrated by folks with a political agenda. Well meaning but unaware people so earnestly believe this, though, that people look at you funny when you disagree. Here are the facts: In the US we do not track our children. Every child takes math, english, history, science, some PE, some fine arts and a few electives. When our kids are tested against other countries we take an average sample (typically from Minnesota public schools, FYI). These tests are then compared against students who are tracked towards math or science careers in their countries. It is this simple: our average are compared against other coutries best. Well no kidding we don't do as well. My source: The Maufactured Crisis. Our schools are just fine, though of course I hope we keep trying to make them better. My points earlier on pushing kids and setting high standards weren't just limited to schools, but to our society in general. Schools are just one example where our collective will has resulted in (IMHO) lowered bars for achievement. I don't think I have a political agenda* and I agree that there is significant tracking in a number of other countries. I'm also not an academic and have not studied this rigorously, so I admittedly have only my experience. Having said that, I have been trying to hire Masters' and PhD engineers, mathematicians, statisticians and other analytical types for well over a decade ... and have mostly learned about the intricacies of our H1B, L1, B1, etc. immigration process. If I pursued a "hire American" only policy, my last three companies would be woefully lacking in staff primarily because there are so few American students even in those programs. Now, granted, this is the tip of the academic world, but it speaks to a funnel through which not enough American kids are passing into hard sciences careers. Well, at least it speaks that to me. In a world of increasing technological complexity, this doesn't seem to bode well ... especially while we try to tighten up our immigration policies against the exact kind of high intellect people we do need to drive technological innovation. (OK, I do have a political and business agenda on that front, but will say no more) I've certainly helped to derail this thread, so I'll go back to my battle cry for all of us over 50 or approaching going over 50: DON'T GIVE UP COMPETING! THERE LIES DANGER! * but, as an aside, I hardly imagine the authors of The Manufactured Crisis to be apolitical in their use of data

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

Former Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 10:03:36 GMT

Through all this, though, they'll know what it takes to reach a certain goal and what others are doing to compete for that goal. For example, my oldest daughter (8th grade) really thinks she wants to go to Cal-Berkeley or Stanford and swim there. We downloaded both the academic requirements and swimming times for their freshman class and showed her that. We also explained that while it might look like she's got 4+ years to achieve those goals, she has to start today to put herself on the right trajectory. I'd rather have their eyes wide open than behind rose-colored glasses. I don't think that promoting a focus on winning has to come at the detriment of having fun or of being well-balanced. My "heroes" are those folks who "win" by having a well-balanced life across career, home and personal interests. However, as that is seemingly a goal for practically all Americans and I imagine most Americans don't believe they're achieving it, it's a goal that clearly requires excellence. As a father of an adolescent girl, you might want to read Reviving Ophelia. Stanford received over 30,000 applications this year with an acceptance rate of less than 8%. Setting goals is great, but our "focus on winning" does come at a price.

RE: 2009 News WSJ Older, Wiser, Slower After 50

jonblank — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 09:00:45 GMT

from the article: "A decade ago, marriage and children brought to an end the elite triathlon career of M* R*, a 50-year-old Chicago metals trader. But in the pool where he swims these days, he competes against whoever is in the lane beside him, particularly if that athlete appears younger, "and I'm crushed if he's faster than me, even though he doesn't know I exist," says Mr. R*". What a toad.