Rowdy's take on tech suits

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:55:41 GMT

Good bye and good riddance to the suits. Enough drama, and the drama will never stop if they are kept legal. I swam great at masters nationals with my suit- world record included- and think they are an amazing leap forward performance-wise. But my high school daughter made me feel guilty the whole time ("That's not real swimming, you're cheating Dad!). Brad Is it your daughter you swim for, or is it yourself? Her opinion is her opinion and for you take it on gives her control. If you have done something wrong or contrary to established rules or regulations and she calls you on it, she has to back it up. IMO it appears that your reason to get rid of the suits is based solely on how your daughter perceives you.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:24:57 GMT

Good bye and good riddance to the suits. Enough drama, and the drama will never stop if they are kept legal. I swam great at masters nationals with my suit- world record included- and think they are an amazing leap forward performance-wise. But my high school daughter made me feel guilty the whole time ("That's not real swimming, you're cheating Dad!). Rowdy Gaines is a not a A+ representative for our sport. Great swimmer, especially in a Blue 70. But his opinions and commentary do not make me proud.. I cringe at every second sentence he comes out with during his commentary on televised swimming events. I wish there was another voice for swimming.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Allen Stark — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:50:28 GMT

Descartes was flying on a plane. The steward asked him if he would like a drink. He replied, " I think not", and disappeared. Rejoinder to Descartes"you think therefore you know you are,but what am I?"

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:52:25 GMT

"It is very certain that, when it is not in our power to determine what is true, we ought to act according to what is most probable." ~Rene Descartes, 1596-1650~

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:06:18 GMT

Descartes was flying on a plane. The steward asked him if he would like a drink. He replied, " I think not", and disappeared.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 12:02:31 GMT

This stuff seems very important to all of us, but the majority of people don't really care. Do you think swimming is undervalued because human nature requires a vested interest in order to ensure direct personal involvement? Or, has the ability for business interests in our sport to produce a highly consumable product been historically denied? So they want to increase suit size so the logos will be more visible. Those who want swimming to be like NASCAR should be glad. Do you think the logos have anything to do with the rise of NASCAR in the last 10 years to now become the 4th largest sport consumed in the USA? Or is it the simple 3-tier betting system that engages a wider audience? I don't see much media interest in masters swimming. Do you think intellectual property or the value of an image have anything to do with the category of swimmer you are? Does media evolve and are we all part of that new platform?

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:25:31 GMT

Does anyone think FINA could still change their mind and allow TECH suits back to be used??? Will Fina produce rules that everyone can follow to a tee??? Are these discussions really about nothing??? I know tech suits are still being sold, some at discount prices, are they being bought by wishful thinkers???

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:09:15 GMT

, what should masters do? At this point, I doubt if any of the masters organizations around the world really know what to do about the issue. I would guess that like USMS, other masters governing bodies are waiting on the FINA Masters Tech group to issue a statement on the suits. Once USMS and others have some guidance from the FINA Masters, they will be able to issue a ruling. Is the compromise for Masters to allow bodysuits that are 100% textile, like the FS Pro and Tracer Lights? Would it be better to follow everyone else? My personal opinion, to allow 100% textile bodysuits for masters but that's becasuse I really do hate shaving down. Like you said, not something I am forced to do with masters and won't do even for nationals. But what is "best" will be argued about among "tow the line crowd" vs "forward thinking crowd" vs " the somewhere in between crowd"

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

BillS — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:54:56 GMT

Does anyone think FINA could still change their mind and allow TECH suits back to be used??? Yes. Will Fina produce rules that everyone can follow to a tee??? Not in my lifetime. Are these discussions really about nothing??? They keep Dolphin2 happy and engaged. I know tech suits are still being sold, some at discount prices, are they being bought by wishful thinkers??? They are legal through the end of the year, which period is evidently much longer than the lifespan of some of the suits.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:41:09 GMT

FINA has banned them. For masters, that hasn't been ruled on. For USA,NCAA,H/S, yes that is the case.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:24:36 GMT

I would guess that like USMS, other masters governing bodies are waiting on the FINA Masters Tech group to issue a statement on the suits. I'm not completely sure, but I believe USMS is considering whether to be more proactive than that, and advocate a particular position to FINA (much like USS did). Of course, then USMS would have to turn around and decide whether to pass whatever FINA decided to do. Or decide to do something else. I bet it won't happen until next year but that's just a guess.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:11:09 GMT

For masters, that hasn't been ruled on. For USA,NCAA,H/S, yes that is the case. Most of what JMiller has been talking about -- TV coverage, politcal agendas, increased money in the sport, whatever (I can't really follow some of it) -- is dealing with FINA's decision to ban the suits for "mainstream" swimming, and (I think) originated with Rowdy's theory that the suits stimulated media interest in the sport. I don't see much media interest in masters swimming. The reason I claimed that most of it is irrelevant is exactly what you said: those decisions made, what should masters do?

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:32:59 GMT

Some people don't want to buy the suits, and that's entirely their choice! Legislating what everyone else in the world is able to purchase, that's incredulous! You're right man, that is incredulous. Peace. :angel:

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:05:58 GMT

What is the real reason FINA has banned them.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:56:08 GMT

Some people don't want to buy the suits, and that's entirely their choice! Legislating what everyone else in the world is able to purchase, that's incredulous! What is the real reason for the deflation of the largest market swimming has ever produced? How is that good for the sport? Nobody is saying you can't purchase the suits, wear the suits, or even swim in the suits. You just can't race in the suits in certain sanctioned competitions. I know that you know these things, I'm just being a smart ass! :D

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:51:20 GMT

Unconstitutional? Lets not get carried away. Some people don't want to buy the suits, and that's entirely their choice! Legislating what everyone else in the world is able to purchase, that's incredulous! What is the real reason for the deflation of the largest market swimming has ever produced? How is that good for the sport?

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:22:02 GMT

Thanks for sharing that link Chris. Maybe there is still hope for business interests in our sport! Or, will we cut the flow off completely? Grown adults should be able to buy and race in any swimsuit they want! Anything less is unconstitutional! Unconstitutional? Lets not get carried away. The rules of competition are governed by whatever body sanctions the competition. It has nothing to do with US law or politics. In my opinion, the original FINA rules should have been interpreted to not allow most of the recent tech suits, because those suits are performance enhancing devices. Much like the Kitajima dolphin kick, the rules were bent as more and more swimmers pushed the limits with tech suits. Finally the backlash go to be too much and FINA specifically ruled against them. Right now it seems to us that the cat was out of the bag and maybe they waited too long, but only time will tell whether or not that is true. Maybe in hindsight this period will look like nothing more than a blip on the radar of swimming history. Personally I'm glad they put a stop to the ongoing slide toward wetsuits in the pool. As for business interests and swimming popularity, I think the only reason swimming gets any press at all is because of the leftover excitement from the Olympics. Even that isn't much. This stuff seems very important to all of us, but the majority of people don't really care. I can sympathize with your desire to make swimming more popular, but I don't agree that tech suits are the best way to achieve that end. I think the rivalry between Phelps and Cavic is more the type of thing that gets people interested (close finish, trash talking, etc.), but again that could be just me since I actually follow the sport anyway.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:12:50 GMT

you see that Australia and GB are pressuring FINA to allow body-suits for men, and one reason mentioned is that the sponsors aren't happy with jammers b/c there is little room to have those big logos. So exactly which side is being more accommodating to special interests? Thanks for sharing that link Chris. Maybe there is still hope for business interests in our sport! Or, will we cut the flow off completely? Grown adults should be able to buy and race in any swimsuit they want! Anything less is unconstitutional!

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Allen Stark — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:23:56 GMT

So they want to increase suit size so the logos will be more visible.those who want swimming to be like NASCAR should be glad.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:16:15 GMT

the equivalence between the suits and PED use is being implied, and that is the moral imperative for why they are now actually banned. From this perspective, I see that as a Red Herring based on political interests that are ultimately disingenuous. I have no moral qualms with the suits -- well, maybe a slight one about their price, the whole "social justice" thing (and losing about $500 of suits to a thief at a meet sure didn't improve my outlook on the price issue). My personal position has always been that masters should follow the same rules wrt suits as the elites, no more and no less. That's why I said Rowdy's argument against banning the suit doesn't apply. The suits are banned, the question now is about what masters should do. I don't think TV coverage is really an issue in that debate. I don't get your political interests comment at all. If you look at this: reachforthewall.com/.../ you see that Australia and GB are pressuring FINA to allow body-suits for men, and one reason mentioned is that the sponsors aren't happy with jammers b/c there is little room to have those big logos. So exactly which side is being more accommodating to special interests?

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:05:10 GMT

I don't understand this comment. When did I say that? Hi Chris, sure we are misquoting each other, but the equivalence between the suits and PED use is being implied, and that is the moral imperative for why they are now actually banned. From this perspective, I see that as a Red Herring based on political interests that are ultimately disingenuous. I'll believe that when swimming displaces -- or even comes close to competing with -- NASCAR in my local paper. Wow, you are a tough sell! I'd be happy with market normalization for all sports, which in all fairness, doesn't have to be complete saturation!

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:29:16 GMT

(I guess I'm not at the point where I equate the two.) Is it easier for you to equate a swimsuit with PED use? So Rowdy's argument for why they were a good thing is interesting but moot. How's that? The media exposure that did occur is irrevocable. The idea that swimming "can't" flourish in mainstream media has dissolved!

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:23:13 GMT

Is it easier for you to equate a swimsuit with PED use? I don't understand this comment. When did I say that? The idea that swimming "can't" flourish in mainstream media has dissolved! I'll believe that when swimming displaces -- or even comes close to competing with -- NASCAR in my local paper. But whatever popularity swimming DOES have in the US has much more to do with Mr. Phelps than Speedo. (In some other countries, swimming has greater popularity than here, and this happened well before any suit controversies.) The idea that the suits caused swimming to be a mainstream sport is just ludicrous. (Though Ricky Berens' suit malfunction probably did cause a large spike of interest among a certain demographic...)

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:08:02 GMT

That's like saying drug doping scandals are good for cycling, because they increase media coverage. Except swimsuits is what we're actually discussing! That's good for the sport.

RE: Rowdy's take on tech suits

Former Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:02:25 GMT

That's like saying drug doping scandals are good for cycling, because they increase media coverage.