High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 14:42:48 GMT

A couple great articles from the experts. Developing balanced shoulder muscles and avoiding stretching routines that aren't sound can reduce and eliminate shoulder problems. Good luck swimming.about.com/.../endswimshoulder_3.htm www.gsaswim.org/.../Stretching_Summary_USA_20091807.pdf

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 13:14:15 GMT

Weight training is the best thing for it I have to agree with this statement 110% Keep curing yourself with what feels appropriate and the odds that it may never ever pop out in the future are high. I dislocated the same knee twice within a year when I was in my teen ages, doctor said if it ever happen again, I'd has to open it (I was scared to death). In 2000, I was turning 31. I really thought that I'd finish my days with a walking stick. Could barely climb stairs without pain. I got back to training stair master (with tape around both knees) and weights. Now, (short story) this year I had my first cycling season ever with no pain whatsoever and I plan to maybe start running next year (which I had never been able to, even working as a full time triathlon coach for a varsity team). I am not a doctor, but I really have the impression that weights have a positive impact even on articular tissues (even pads and stuff). Weights weights weights.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 08:30:27 GMT

Looks interesting doc, I'll give your article a quite and thorough read. I agree with your conclusion on the detrimental impact of late/weighted catching. I may add to this that the reason why it is so common, is that to some extent, it feels good swimming like this. Well that's not a *good* good, it's a bad good. But still, for a lot of swimmers it's hard to trade a gooooood gliiiidy looooong feeling for a healthier catch (taken earlier and unweighted). It's like as if a lot of these swimmers where addicted to swim this way.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

__steve__ — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 05:58:11 GMT

I have to monitor my left should closely while swimming, 15 years ago when I was 28 it dislocated at Moab UT, a doctor riding by reset it. Since then the left shoulder has popped out of socket about 10 times and I learned to reset myself. Hasn't happened in several years. Weight training is the best thing for it

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Kevin in MD — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 02:52:14 GMT

really reaching with the forward hand on each stroke, and not pulling until the trailing hand entered the water (the TI front quadrant swimming concept). But over time, my shoulders would bother me. And I recently learned that swimming with high elbows (envisioning your arm going over a barrel) is better for your shoulders. I was definitely dropping my elbows before. There are two common injury modes that could possibly be at work, a video would show which one is in play from her it is hard to guess. The first injury mode is having your arm extended overhead and your hand is actually higher than your shoulder joint. Often it goes with having your hand angled up. It is terribly common in people overdoing the long stroke with catchup aspect of things. It is so common I wrote an article for people who do catchup to beware of this overcorrection. acadianendurance.blogspot.com/ The basic idea is that you are putting a load on your shoulder when it is overhead. Your arms are not really made to do that - exert force with your hands fully overhead. The second injury mode is that of abduction with internal rotation. Medically, this is the position folks worry about for causing impingement. Coincidentally it is the same position described as early vertical forearm by some coaches. As noted earlier, if you swim with an overly long glide phase and then throw an attempt at high elbow catch on top of it. You are compounding things because A. your shoulder position is ripe for impingement, B. you slowed down so much that you have to reaccelerate your body, more force more loading. For the length of the thread you haven't mentioned more shoulder problems though, so hopefully what you did is working for you.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 12:50:16 GMT

but I found it's from not relaxing the arm/shoulder when the hand is out of the water. As soon as I relaxed - the pain disappeared. This is what I mean when I refer to unloading the catch. Keeping the hands relaxed like George suggested is also very beneficial. Keep going you're on the right track!

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 06:45:08 GMT

Relaxation of the muscles for me starts in the hands by not pressing the thumb against the index finger. By not forcing the fingers together, you can feel the tension in the forearms release. If you press the thumb against the index finger and hold the fingers tightly together great tension that extends even to the shoulders. Then realease the tension and you can feel the muscles release.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

__steve__ — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 02:30:37 GMT

I've been focusing on the technique ever since this thread started. I can definately feel improvement. At times my shoulders do develop some strain, but I found it's from not relaxing the arm/shoulder when the hand is out of the water. As soon as I relaxed - the pain disappeared. I guess I concentrated onthe new arm position so much I neglected the rest phase. Even though I'm still slow with only just over a year exp swimming, I am kinda lucky picking up this style so early

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

orca1946 — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:03:02 GMT

You must listen to your body, if it hurts then you must change something.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:08:58 GMT

It's just a drill George, nothing more than a little harmless drill. Drills should be specific to any issue one might need to solve. In other words, I agree with you that if you're not facing the same challenge that the op is facing, this patient catch drill is probably irrelevant for you. - - - - - - "Originally Posted by bud View Post" ... is best achieved by keeping your body flat and straight in the water." right statement, wrong author though. I am Solar and he is Bud. Charles My apologies Solar. I wasn't paying attention.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:38:05 GMT

It's just a drill George, nothing more than a little harmless drill. Drills should be specific to any issue one might need to solve. In other words, I agree with you that if you're not facing the same challenge that the op is facing, this patient catch drill is probably irrelevant for you. Drills are not harmless if you incorporate it into your stroke. A drill if you do them should be specifically done to help incorporate the drll points into your stroke.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:23:54 GMT

To me the patient catch in that video is not very practicle. It's just a drill George, nothing more than a little harmless drill. Drills should be specific to any issue one might need to solve. In other words, I agree with you that if you're not facing the same challenge that the op is facing, this patient catch drill is probably irrelevant for you. - - - - - - "Originally Posted by bud View Post" ... is best achieved by keeping your body flat and straight in the water." This is where you mentioned keeping the body flat in the water. That's why I was asking for clarification on this comment right statement, wrong author though. I am Solar and he is Bud. Charles

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:13:44 GMT

Head position is regulated by an individuals bouyancy. The head position along with many other things vary to make a complete stroke. Distance swimmers will carry their heads lower then sprinters generally but there is no oneway catches all. You will also notice that TI is an always changing theory based on new stuff that comes about. So you will find that TI is ever changing. What TI taught originally is not what they try to do now. To me the patient catch in that video is not very practicle.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:00:44 GMT

Solar the old phrase swim like a fish is a very false statemnt. Fish do a fishtail movement. This action is not streamlined. It only would work if we had a fishes tail fins. I kind of agree here. That's why I prefer (and used) the expression "becoming more and more like a fish". - - Serpico, I found this clip here which shows an interesting approach in the form of a drill (or so it looks to me) that seems to be a nice way to work on modulating the way you catch. What I mean by modulating is really about getting used to catch at various depth (this drill focuses on catching deeper while still swimming front quadrant). I am not suggesting that you should use this technique in your full stroke, but I find this clip to be interesting for you since it is indirectly advocating catching in a way that is safe for shoulder articulation. Moreover, I believe it may have been inspired by TI's approach. As far as I am concerned, that helps correcting a misconception (at least in my mind) that TI would be (wrongly) advocating longish glides at the front YouTube - Patient Catch - Total Immersion clip Without having seen you I'd say it would be safe to give this drill/approach a try.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:00:18 GMT

. The best way to get good slippage for your body is to keep it long and narrow, like a racing boat (as opposed to a barge). This long and narrow "vessel shape" is best achieved by keeping your body flat and straight in the water. From the floating exercise above, you know that flat is more easy to accomplish with your arms out in front, hence the popularity of FQS (front quadrant swimming). Another good thing to keep in mind is keeping your hips up. This all helps you to stay well streamlined and balanced in the water... and swimming efficiency is ALL ABOUT good streamlining and balance. :) This is where you mentioned keeping the body flat in the water. That's why I was asking for clarification on this comment

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:05:36 GMT

I would rather see your stroke before you attempt EVF, there may be a simple solution. Keep it simple.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

__steve__ — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:16:41 GMT

Interesting the style differences between top swimmers. The goal should be to spot what's common and try to emulate that, like catching then pull with both hand and forearm. Thorpe looks forward all the time but I read one should have head positioned neutral

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 08:01:03 GMT

I gave this flat position thing a second then a third thought. I think I understand better what they mean and they may have a point. During this transition from side to side, the time when the body is almost flat may as well be the best time to actually drop the forearm thus bending the elbow.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 07:43:10 GMT

This confusion about flat body position is a shame. Front crawl is swam from side to side. Of course, moving from one side to the other involves that at some point, the body is flat. If you pause any freestyle clip in the middle of this side-to-side action, then the body is flat. This fact seems to have inspired mysterious schools of thoughts to recommend swimming flat in order to favor high elbow?????? :applaud: The best way I have found for now to be able to move from side to side is to let my recovering arm roll me from side to side. I tried the concept of "rotate from the hips" to control the stroke, that never seemed to produce any good results. For me, letting the recovering arms dictate the timing has produced a better connection of the stroke.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 07:13:35 GMT

Nope, I am only representing myself in asking the question. I am only concerned with how to improve my freestyle, considering over the last few years that it has gone south faster than I did getting out of new jersey. This confusion about flat body position is a shame. Front crawl is swam from side to side. Of course, moving from one side to the other involves that at some point, the body is flat. If you pause any freestyle clip in the middle of this side-to-side action, then the body is flat. This fact seems to have inspired mysterious schools of thoughts to recommend swimming flat in order to favor high elbow?????? :applaud:

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 07:08:02 GMT

no probs. Speaking about flat body and TI. I don't know if yourself are representing some branch of TI, but here... . Nope, I am only representing myself in asking the question. I am only concerned with how to improve my freestyle, considering over the last few years that it has gone south faster than I did getting out of new jersey.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 05:44:01 GMT

My apologies Solar. I wasn't paying attention. no probs. Speaking about flat body and TI. I don't know if yourself are representing some branch of TI, but here... Strangely enough, this clip here (referred to by CoachT earlier) is explicitly advocating perfectly flat body position for favoring high elbow, and it comes from TI Israel ... (reach out for minute 1:50) YouTube - How to swim with a High Elbow Catch/EVF - Total Immersion Israel Has TI (head office) lost control over its branches? - - - Yeah, understood. I'll try to take a video of me attempting EVF. What angles should I get video from - underwater side and front views? Serpio, I think that we all forgot to ask you few important questions: - Which one of your shoulders is getting painful? - Do you breathe only on one side, if yes which one? You seem to have read somewhere that the famous dropped elbow pulling (which typically occurs to those wanting to glide too much upon arm entry) can be the cause of shoulder pain. And I agree (to a large extent) with this statement. However, like many members participating to your thread have pointed out, EVF may be little too extreme as a solution to solve the dropped elbow flaw. So if you're asking me what I would like to see, I'd like to see you swimming as naturally as possible. Say I show up during one of your swim session, say I have a camera but you didn't see me. I'd film you without you even noticing? It is this stroke I'd like to see.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 05:24:42 GMT

SE, I can see what you're talking about with Thorpe - his fingers point forward and a little down even at entry. You know without actually seeing you, it's becoming difficult to issue detailed recommendation. Yeah, understood. I'll try to take a video of me attempting EVF. What angles should I get video from - underwater side and front views?

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 05:15:25 GMT

If it hurts, don't do it - PERIOD! The entry and "setting-up" of the stroke is very important but when a certain entry and positioning of the forearm and hand hurts (at any angle, straight, bent or inbetween) don't try to conform to something your musculature is not prepared to handle. Like George said, an video of you swimming is important before more suggestions are to be given. Good luck, Coach T.

RE: High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

Former Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:58:30 GMT

Solar the old phrase swim like a fish is a very false statemnt. Fish do a fishtail movement. This action is not streamlined. It only would work if we had a fishes tail fins.