Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Paul Smith — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:55:54 GMT

The other 10% was to annoy Paul Smith. So glad I can assit you in goal setting...mission accomplished! Love my new Geek calender by the way!

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

mattson — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:34:41 GMT

There was a tri here in NC at one time that was a swim/bike/run/bike/swim but it was in a disgusting lake. I think that would be a good formula. Hold all triathlons in disgusting lakes? :angel:

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Former Member — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 06:59:16 GMT

That didn't help this guy: www.newsday.com/.../man-dies-during-east-river-swim-competition-1.1442982 www.nydailynews.com/.../2009-09-12_swimmer_59_.html This poor gentleman was a veteran open-water swimmer who had recently swum two miles in 54 minutes (about 1:40 per 100 yards) - not bad for a 59-year-old. He died of a heart attack 250 yards into a 1,000 yard swim.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

ande — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:02:54 GMT

"should triathletes be certified?" Most triathletes I know are certifiable ande

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Frosty — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:51:55 GMT

In New York City, open water swimmers have to be certified....For example, to swim the Brooklyn Bridge (1K) next week, you basically have to be an experienced open water swimmer or complete a two-mile swim in a pool: "...we have set certain qualifying standards for participation in each of our events....The experience requirement for participating in the Brooklyn Bridge Swim is as follows: "The completion of any NYC Swim open water swim or Aquathlon since January 1, 2007 --- or --- "Any DOCUMENTED timed open water swim race of 1.5 miles or more since January 1, 2007 --- or --- "Any DOCUMENTED Triathlon with a timed 1.5 mile or longer open water swim since January 1, 2007 --- or --- "Pool certification in a manner consistent with the sample template, which can be accessed on your user profile swimmer page, documenting the completion of a continuous 2-mile pool swim (3300 yards/3000 meters) in 1 hour and 30 minutes or better since January 1, 2009... That didn't help this guy: www.newsday.com/.../man-dies-during-east-river-swim-competition-1.1442982 www.nydailynews.com/.../2009-09-12_swimmer_59_.html

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

elise526 — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:36:24 GMT

If you're using a ball, it's probably considered water polo. I suspect that underwater hockey is the "underwater sports activity" that they are not covering. The phone number for our insurer is on the first page of the insurance section of the USMS handbook. Sandi is very nice, and very helpful, and she'd be happy to explain our insurance coverage, and exclusions, to any interested clubs. Interesting situation because intra-club water polo is an insured activity under USA Swimming coverage: "Exclusions-OTHER INSUREDS ONLY: .... Any occurrence arising out of or related to any sporting activity other than swimming. This exclusion does not apply to dryland training activities and intra club water polo." So, in the case of an intra club water polo game during a masters swim practice, a USA swimming coach would have liability coverage under the USA Swimming insurance policy. I think it strange that the USMS liabilty coverage is at odds with the USA liability coverage. For the sake of consistency, the USMS insurance coverage should be changed to cover intra club water polo.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Former Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:12:07 GMT

It's better to die by athleticism than die on the couch. Kicking the bucket during the swim at a triathlon is probably a drop in the bucket though. I imagine that bike and run 'training' takes far more lives but won't get the press because these deaths aren't happening at the events. People get hit all the time. Two people in my town got hit by an errant motorist just last week - both remain (fortunately) in intenstive care. But to stay on topic with the OP, it's not just rookie swimmers that get themselves into trouble. It's not even limited to folks that have known or identifiable conditions. I've been gearing up to do more tris and have been following some of these stories. I had never, ever, ever, ever felt nervous about being in the water until I read this: www.slowtwitch.com/.../Swimming_Induced_Pulmonary_Edema_SIPE__45.html STEVE writes: I was a competitive swimmer most of my life, including some very intense times in the pool. The first time I ever noticed the rasping, inability to catch my breath, and dramatic loss of energy in my limbs, was in Charleston, South Carolina, my first such incident. The race started with a .6 mile swim in Atlantic ocean, no waves, water was warm - mid 70's. Three-tenths of a mile into swim, my arms felt like lead, my breathing became raspy. Another tenth of a mile later, I was holding the kayaks every 20 feet or so, trying to catch my breath. Another tenth, and I stopped moving and started sinking under the water. I was grabbed by a lifeguard who saw me go under and taken to shore - I was conscious, blood coming from my mouth. I spent 90 minutes on the shore while they tried to get my oxygen levels up. They did not leave for the hospital because they thought I would go into cardiac arrest at any moment. In the emergency room, they gave me Lasix and Heprin drips, took x-rays and blood tests. Twelve hours after being pulled from the water, the diagnosis was congestive heart failure - they readied me for an Angiogram. Twenty-four hours after, the angiogram showed I had no heart problems. They moved me to get a full body CT scan to find the clots. Forty-eight hours afterward, they pulled all the drips out of me, told me they had no idea what had happened, and let me walk out of the hospital. Following the Charleston race, I had extensive cardio-pulmonary testing done, including a stress echo. Nothing was found. The cardiac specialist told me the incident in was likely a one-time occurrence. In preparation for my next tri, I did extensive pool training, and the night before the race I put on my wetsuit and went for a 25-minute swim in the Pacific Ocean, about 2 miles from where the start of the race would be the next morning. Everything was fine. Two-hundred yards in I felt great, was at the head of the group, no problems. Just after I felt very tired, very fast, no rasping, but could not catch my breath, I reached for the kayak. After another 50 yards I pulled down my wetsuit top to try to get more air, and realized I was in trouble again. I called for the boat, and was taken from the water with blood coming from my mouth and nose. They wanted to call the ambulance, I told them a lie: it is just asthma. I did not want all the same tests. I got home, took a diuretic, went to bed.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

elise526 — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:11:43 GMT

It is a good idea, but just be aware that water polo is a specifically excluded activity when it comes to USMS insurance coverage. We call it a "drill," not water polo. :) Also, the way we play, I don't think anybody could call it water polo within the normal understanding of what water polo is. :) Interesting that the policy does not define what water polo is. It would be pretty easy to get around the exclusion by making the game "keep away" and making it part of "swimming practice." Calling whatever one is doing a drill for open water swimming and not scoring goals would seem to eliminate the problem. Speaking of exclusions, noticed "underwater sports activities" are also excluded. So, what does that exclude? Are underwater 25s therefore excluded from coverage?" I'm not seeing a definition of underwater sports activities. Kind of seems ambiguous. Seems like that exclusion would get thrown out in favor of coverage.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

elise526 — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:39:12 GMT

A tip for masters coaches - have a water polo game during practice and make sure the triathletes participate. This gets people used to "contact swimming," spotting, swimming with the head up, and going around people. Once you get elbowed and dunked a few times playing water polo, it is not as traumatic when the same thing happens on an open water swim.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Former Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:55:58 GMT

This is a tough one for me to evaluate. I'm not sure I want USMS meets, especially those between Jan and March to basically become overrun with USAT members try to make a probably ridiculously slow time cut. Maybe make the events on Friday or Monday so the rest of us won't have to suffer with 300 tris trying to get a 10 minute standard in the 500. This would, of course, increase participation in USMS meets, which would be a good thing. If a lot of people want to swim the same distance, a USMS chapter could sponsor a "meet" for that distance only and use it as a fundraiser. If USMS didn't want any part of this, I'm sure another organization would step up. There are a lot of people willing to help triathletes part with their cash. It's just that USMS chapters have the infrastructure to do it fairly simply.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Muppet — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:56:50 GMT

I'm not sure I want USMS meets, especially those between Jan and March to basically become overrun with USAT members try to make a probably ridiculously slow time cut. If a lot of people want to swim the same distance, a USMS chapter could sponsor a "meet" for that distance only and use it as a fundraiser. This is what I have inferred already - that distance meets are the answer. As I mention earlier, our SCY Zone meet was 60% triathletes in the 1000/1650. They all signed up in as soon as the event info went public, so anyone who waited got shut out (there was a cutoff). The only problem is getting LMSCs - and particular teams - to step up to host those events. My team had traditionally held a 1000/1650 SCY distance meet and a 800/1500 LC distance meet annually, but few people want to work on these, and the LC meet is now ancient history. We've able to get pools on the cheap, so finances aren't an issue for us, but for most other places, this is probably the #1 inhibiting factor.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

aquageek — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:51:10 GMT

This would, of course, increase participation in USMS meets, which would be a good thing. I agree, more participation might be a good thing. But, more participants doesn't necessarily mean a great benefit. I think some smart people could figure this out without swamping us with open-turning, tri suit wearing, paddle pushing tris. At least we know the IM and stroke events would see not increased participation!

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:29:39 GMT

This would, of course, increase participation in USMS meets, which would be a good thing. If a lot of people want to swim the same distance, a USMS chapter could sponsor a "meet" for that distance only and use it as a fundraiser. If USMS didn't want any part of this, I'm sure another organization would step up. There are a lot of people willing to help triathletes part with their cash. It's just that USMS chapters have the infrastructure to do it fairly simply. Thats' the spirit Notsofast! And frankly, I have seen many triathletes drop in to masters workouts to get a little swim training in before their first - or a big triathlon only to become USMS lifers. I still say this is a great concept that serves the athletes and grows the sport. It needs development. Maybe it starts small with a few races willing to plan it a year in advance for next triathlon season. There is no doubt in my mind it would be a good investment of time for USMS and masters head coaches.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

aquageek — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:23:03 GMT

It will grow both our sports, lower insurance premiums and make triathlons safer. This is a tough one for me to evaluate. I'm not sure I want USMS meets, especially those between Jan and March to basically become overrun with USAT members try to make a probably ridiculously slow time cut. Maybe make the events on Friday or Monday so the rest of us won't have to suffer with 300 tris trying to get a 10 minute standard in the 500. I'm also not sure the goal of USMS is to make USAT triathlons safer. There is probably some tie-in to be had between the two organizations but not at the expense of turning USMS into some USAT qualifying program. 95% of tris just try to survive the swim, which is vastly different from the point of a swim meet.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

ViveBene — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 05:11:17 GMT

A recent post underscoring why OW, not just pool, experience should be part of the qualification process: U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Anyone had this experience?

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

FindingMyInnerFish — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 01:34:25 GMT

My first open water swim competition was done with pool training, but I did have at least the advantage of having had most of my early swimming lessons in a bay rather than a pool (some swimming lessons there but my main memories are of salt water and so had already long overcome any squeamishness about jellyfish, seaweed, etc.--just part of the environment!). Often, I'm surprised at the number of people in my area who haven't learned to swim or who have only very minimal swimming skills. But I realize I also had a fortunate upbringing. Because we went to the beach every summer, my parents saw swimming as a survival skill and enrolled us all in lessons. Yet I have overheard conversations between adults taking lessons for the first time and being afraid to put their face in the water. I applaud them for taking the step of learning to swim, just that it is surprising how much that wasn't part of so many people's early experience. A friend tells me he started swimming lessons as a kid in some township recreation program, but that budgets got cut and his swimming lessons ended. Seems to me swimming should be a part of the standard PE curriculum as kids grow up--or at least be budgeted into summer recreation programs. It's not only at triathlons that people run into problems. Often drownings occur in boating or when un/undertrained swimmers venture into unprotected waters. Maybe even some sessions in open water.... But maybe that's a pipe dream....

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Former Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 15:05:40 GMT

My name is Tony Austin and I was the original author of the blog post "Triathletes should be certified by USMS" over at the SCAQ blog. After reading all these thoughtful posts, I want to change the concept of certification to qualification. When you want to do the Kona Ironman you have to meet specific qualifications or you can't do it unless you win a lottery and even then, I am sure thy look at your athletic résumé 25-triathletes died this year, that's like two a month. That is an unacceptable casualty for a sport. How many masters swimmers died in a pool meet or an open water swim this year? Not many. It's my belief that a triathlete must compete is a pool race and demonstrate they can meet a time standard, barring any disabilities or particular age group struggles, in such events as the 500-free, 1000-free, 1650-free or their meters counterpart. When the time standard is met, the athlete can do their triathlon and both the promoter and the USAT will have some semblance of a safe swim. I stand by the post, I think it is reasonable that if a triathlete is going to swim a mile-point-five from Alcatraz to Aquatic Park, or a 1000-meter lake swim in Wisconsin, a triathlete should meet a time standard in a pool. The USMS has the infrastructure, a meet result database to make this fast, easy, and efficient. It will grow both our sports, lower insurance premiums and make triathlons safer.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Former Member — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:06:36 GMT

In New York City, open water swimmers have to be certified. I don't know why this couldn't be extended in some form to triathlon swimmers, either through master's swimming organizations or some triathlon group. For example, to swim the Brooklyn Bridge (1K) next week, you basically have to be an experienced open water swimmer or complete a two-mile swim in a pool: "Safety concerns require us to ensure that every participant in a NYC Swim swim event has adequate swim experience; thus we have set certain qualifying standards for participation in each of our events. You may register for a NYC Swim event even if you have not completed a qualifying swim, and your enrollment will be approved upon verification of your qualifying swim details. The experience requirement for participating in the Brooklyn Bridge Swim is as follows: "The completion of any NYC Swim open water swim or Aquathlon since January 1, 2007 --- or --- "Any DOCUMENTED timed open water swim race of 1.5 miles or more since January 1, 2007 --- or --- "Any DOCUMENTED Triathlon with a timed 1.5 mile or longer open water swim since January 1, 2007 --- or --- "Pool certification in a manner consistent with the sample template, which can be accessed on your user profile swimmer page, documenting the completion of a continuous 2-mile pool swim (3300 yards/3000 meters) in 1 hour and 30 minutes or better since January 1, 2009. Swim must take place in a traditional swimming pool; "Endless Pool" swims are not acceptable for qualification purposes. "All pool certifications and qualifying swim information must be received by NYC Swim at least 14 days prior to the date of the race (no later than August 29, 2009). Swimmers who enroll after August 29th must submit their qualification information to NYC Swim within 24 hours of enrollment. Participants' qualifications will not be accepted, reviewed or approved on race day. "

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 07:54:30 GMT

I'm forever hearing, "I just need to get through the swim." It is kind of like the guy that excels in fly, back, and free and wants to swim a fast I.M., yet never trains breaststroke. He thinks, "I'll just have to get through the breaststroke." So, think of folks showing up to swim USMS open water swims like breaststrokers showing up to swim breaststroke, and think of triathlons like a swimmer showing up to swim an I.M. who hasn't done any training for breaststroke. Still think a qualification process instead of a certification process would be the way to go. "Don't hit me with the rollin-pin Elise" nailed it! It used to be kinda ok for triathletes to be lousy swimmers when the race numbers were small. And most people who tackled triathlon still held a decent level of fitness and "athleticism". In the old days of swimming IM races, a swimmer could kinda get by with a sub-par breaststroke and still win. Neither applies now. Lochte and Phelps had to work on their breaststrokes. IMers have to be stroke specialists and be able to race at world level in all strokes to be the best in the IM. The top professional triathletes rarely finish way back in the pack on the swim leg any longer. If they swim off the back, they often pay dearly on the bike and have to lay down an amazing run to pass the earlier leaders. What spectators generally don't see is the level of burnout, single race careers, and injuries that occur when a triathlete neglects training for the swim. BRAVE and BOLD are two completely different qualities. I like my athletes brave - and I'm sorry to admit I have been described as bold!

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

aquageek — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:08:05 GMT

There was a tri here in NC at one time that was a swim/bike/run/bike/swim but it was in a disgusting lake. I think that would be a good formula. They also have equalizer tris where each distance is theoretically similar in time. All that probably does is reduce the bike and run distances. Whenever I do a pool tri, I always put a time that is way faster than what I can go because I know that at least half the people in front of me will screw up and put the wrong time and the other half are a lot slower than they think.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Muppet — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:58:42 GMT

I would prefer the swim at the end when I'm good and warmed up. ... A late Winter tri I did had a pool swim and you had to put your 100 yard time for seeding. The guy in front of me put a :47 thinking you had to put your 25 time. He was like a speed bump. I'd like the swim at the end too. There's a sprint tri series in our area that reverses the order for one of their events that takes place in March/April, mostly so people don't freeze coming out of the pool if they did it "normally." Unfortunately, they send runners off by age, so unless you're in one of the first groups, there's really no way to avoid a massive charlie foxtrot during the swim. Since the swim is a snake swim, to pass the really slow swimmers, I SDK'd underneath them.

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Former Member — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:18:20 GMT

...aren't there emergency floatation devices on the market for swimmers? I suppose they are too bulky to use in competition? www.triaids.com/How to Use.htm

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Former Member — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 06:50:19 GMT

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 03:45:27 GMT

It is kind of like the guy that excels in fly, back, and free and wants to swim a fast I.M., yet never trains breaststroke. Hey now! No need to get personal.:)

RE: Triathletes should be certified by USMS (SCAQ)

elise526 — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 03:02:49 GMT

Unfortunately there was another death in Wisconsin: www.jsonline.com/.../53884077.html There are a couple of questions that come to mind. What is the death rate per swimmer/mile in USMS sanctioned open water events vs the swim portion of USAT events? Of the deaths, what percentage are health (e.g., heart attack) vs. "in over your head" issues? Right now, triathlon related deaths are in the press in Wisconsin, so it may be more an issue of visibility than anything else. Other than certifying the capability of each swimmer before the race, what can be done to ensure the safety of participants? I'm not an open water swimmer at all - give me a 50 in an 80 degree pool - so I'm probably the worst person to give an opinion on this. USMS has a pretty good track record, so we must either be attracting the right group to our swims, or we have safety measures in place that prevent the drownings. The folks that are doing USMS open water swims are attracted to it because it is a swim event. Many folks are attracted to the triathlons because they view it as a bike/run event with a swim that have to get through to get to their main event. I'm forever hearing, "I just need to get through the swim." It is kind of like the guy that excels in fly, back, and free and wants to swim a fast I.M., yet never trains breaststroke. He thinks, "I'll just have to get through the breaststroke." So, think of folks showing up to swim USMS open water swims like breaststrokers showing up to swim breaststroke, and think of triathlons like a swimmer showing up to swim an I.M. who hasn't done any training for breaststroke. Of course, a non-breaststroker won't drown on the breaststroke (although I come fairly close :)) while a non-swimmer who hasn't done any training for the swim runs the risk of drowning on the swim portion to the triathlon. Still think a qualification process instead of a certification process would be the way to go.