Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:36:04 GMT

Breathing is problematic in fly because it creates a horrible body angle in the water, increasing drag significantly. Don't breathe and you remain flatter and faster moving through water. Were it not for lactic acid and brain death, none of us would breathe on fly (or free). Phelps minimizes the increase in drag by lifting mostly with the neck, not the shoulders and having two extremely powerful kicks that keeps him higher in the water. Side breathing can also help minimize the bad body angle, if done correctly; that means breathe back and to the side, not front and to the side. Otherwise, the side breath doesn't help much over traditional front breath. In two Olympics, decades ago, I was a front breather and never breathed every stroke. Today, at 58 years of age, i breathe every stroke and to the side (rear), except for start and turn (lesson from Phelps). I love getting the extra oxygen. On a 50, breathe as little as possible. The key in fly is finding the best balance between reduced drag and oxygen. If you front breathe with neck motion and/or side breathe, you can breathe every stroke and do much better. Since 1984, every male butterflyer who won the Olympic 100 m (except Pablo Morales) has breathed every stroke. That should tell us something. Gary Hall Sr. The Race Club

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

That Guy — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:56:02 GMT

Thanks Gary! From my 3-month experiment, I learned that I don't generate enough power to be faster breathing every stroke. It's not a big difference really, but I am indeed slower swimming that way. Since going back to breathing every other stroke, my practice and competition times have been faster.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:02:36 GMT

Has anyone else (who hasn't always swum fly this way) messed around with breathing every stroke in fly? What were your findings? I'm not qualified to comment on anyone else's perspective because I'm relatively new to the fly. I have been struggling with the 2 beat kick with a one down, one up fly; at most I get the first kick in and an occasional second kick. I worked really hard at one arm flys, until I got the "dolphin action" going then found it was easier to breath every stroke in order to get both kicks in. Im 6'4" tall and lanky with a 6'7" arm span...so I found it easier to "emulate" the "Phelps" fly. If I try to do a one up, one down I lose my kick rhythm because of the change in my body position. I also have more stamina with the 1up/1down, I can do 10x50 now. Before, that was basically impossible. What works for me is keeping the hip action going, like a porpoise (or Orca in my case), I make breaking the surface with my hips on the first kick my priority, then everything seems to just follow through. Of coarse it will take more conditioning before I can do 100's, however getting a fly that works is half the battle.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:07:10 GMT

After 2 competitions, the verdict is in. I'm slower when I breathe every stroke. I've made the switch back to breathing every other stroke. I don't know if 2 competitions is enough to determine a verdict with a change in routine. When making changes, it usually takes a while to adapt to them. I ALWAYS swim slower during the first several months after making a change to stroke mechanics

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:04:55 GMT

After 2 competitions, the verdict is in. I'm slower when I breathe every stroke. I've made the switch back to breathing every other stroke. On a 50? On a 100? on a 200?

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

That Guy — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:15:57 GMT

On a 50? On a 100? on a 200? All three.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

That Guy — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:43:30 GMT

After 2 competitions, the verdict is in. I'm slower when I breathe every stroke. I've made the switch back to breathing every other stroke.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:37:21 GMT

I recently switched to breathe every stroke fly after reading about it on the forum a while ago. It is my new normal - feels great - and seems easier. The reasons for this listed above make sense. I haven't been in a meet since I've started this though. I don't know if I'll do it in a race or not...we'll see Not sure I'd use it for the 50m, hence the need maybe for practicing every two once in a while, or totally hypoxic over 25m for instance. Anyone feels faster every stroke as opposed to no breathing at all? I'm faster when I don't breathe, or so I feel. Darn, I am thinking, I haven't tested that *yet* this season! But for a hundred, I'd start every two for 4 strokes, then every stroke for the remaining.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

gigi — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:53:32 GMT

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

swimmj — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 06:04:29 GMT

I figured something out today. Today while messing around with some breathing-every-stroke fly during a warmup 200 IM, I noticed that my hands were close together as they passed my abdomen, I was recovering higher out of the water, and I was diving deeper. (It's entirely possible that I've been doing this for days but hadn't realized it before. I'm dense like that.) So for the last few strokes of the fly leg of that IM, I played around with adding more power at that particular part of the stroke cycle and OH WOW now I finally understand why Phelps does this. It adds amplitude to the wave. (I never understood it before because, well, each pull looks like an S-curve...) So, feeling like I was on the verge of a breakthrough, I swam my main set the same way. For the first time, I found myself swimming fly in a manner where it would be silly not to breathe, since I'm already up there. However it didn't actually add much speed to my workout; I swam a better-than-usual main set but that may have been due to my excitement. I will keep at it and see where it goes. Nice. Keep us posted on how it goes. I'm on a pool break (local pool closed) and am really missing it.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:51:53 GMT

I am kind of jealous. I am yet to implement one of your discoveries (the other I save it for sprint butterfly). The two discoveries you made are clearly described as the right way to swim the butterfly, at least by E.Maglischo. Most world class butterflyers, especially those that put emphasis on both kicks, pull by bringing their hands very close to each other under the body, before arm extension. I am still unsure why it is the case though. As for recovering higher over the surface, well there again Maglischo clearly reinforce this aspect. He advocates breathing fairly high over the water, exactly for the reason you mentioned. Not only does it allow you to dive deeper, but he reports having studied a great phenomenon that also occurs. He mention about the effect of the reverse body wave (I think that is what he calls this). When you dive, a wave hits you from behind, thus increasing the forward thrust. Many congrats.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

That Guy — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:20:02 GMT

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 05:07:53 GMT

I have problems with my arms-forearms getting stuck in water during no breath stroke. Interesting little issue here. I think I know why. When you breathe, your head is going up. This has a favorable impact on the whole body undulation which in turn facilitates the arm recovery. Simple solution to your issue is to pretend that you're going to breathe even when you don't. I mean do as if you were going to breathe, but just don't break the surface (with your head) completely. This will have the same impact on your body undulation which will result into easier recovery. And in the same time, you will truly make both strokes (the one with and the one without breathing) identical (almost), which is what the other members are suggesting.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:58:34 GMT

I think it goes like this, stroke 1, don't breathe, stroke 2, take a breath, stroke 3, don't breathe, stroke for take a breath.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:43:49 GMT

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

That Guy — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:52:23 GMT

Can somebody explain what is the difference between first stroke and second stroke in "breathing every second stroke" case? What should be body position, head, arms, elbows, hands, timing etc. I have problems with my arms-forearms getting stuck in water during no breath stroke. Everything should be identical whether you breathe or not. But for some of us, it's not. That's what this thread is about.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 09:16:45 GMT

When I used to swim the 100 fly I never swam anything but 50s in training. I would breathe every two or three strokes and used a 2 beat kick.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 07:01:44 GMT

Phelps's deep entry is another reason why he gets a good distance per stroke on his fly. Truly amazing. Absolutely true. Very enlightening.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:46:25 GMT

Most 200 specialists tend to go soft on second kick. Now I understand thanks! In case of Phelps though, it's more a fitness thing than a technical. IOW, it's not all to be able to go hard on both kick, you have to be able to finish the race this way. For what it's worth, looking at Phelps butterfly, the thing that stroked me the most is how deep he goes after entry. I have been struggling to stay very shallow on entry. I do this by using a *scull* to not dive. I am now seriously questioning this strategy. He goes deep but if you look very closely, you don't see a lot of (visible) turbulence around the body when he dives/surfaces. This is what I am aiming for in performing my base mileage. Cutting drag. Finding this tiny little passage that gets me forward with as less drag possible. Really tough I find. I feel a lot of drag, but some of it is just inherent to this stroke. His arm entries are just amazing. Virtually no drag at all. He enters then takes the catch. Arms follow a downward path immediately upon entry. Slight scull to catch then hands almost touch underneath the body. This too, I can't do even if I know I should be doing it. I'll address this after my hunt for cutting drag. 1 thing at the time.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

tjrpatt — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 08:57:26 GMT

Most 200 specialists tend to go soft on second kick. Now I understand thanks! In case of Phelps though, it's more a fitness thing than a technical. IOW, it's not all to be able to go hard on both kick, you have to be able to finish the race this way. I also get impressed by 1500 specialists showing strong 6beat all the way to the end. For what it's worth, looking at Phelps butterfly, the thing that stroked me the most is how deep he goes after entry. I have been struggling to stay very shallow on entry. I do this by using a *scull* to not dive. I am now seriously questioning this strategy. He goes deep but if you look very closely, you don't see a lot of (visible) turbulence around the body when he dives/surfaces. This is what I am aiming for in performing my base mileage. Cutting drag. Finding this tiny little passage that gets me forward with as less drag possible. Really tough I find. I feel a lot of drag, but some of it is just inherent to this stroke. The 6beat on the 1500 is insane. I barely do any kick but people tell me that I had a pretty good kick in my 1500 at Indy. It is weird how what you think you are doing and what other people see are two different things. Ous and the Cochrane 1500 continuous 6-beat kick in the 1500 were so unreal. Phelps's deep entry is another reason why he gets a good distance per stroke on his fly. Truly amazing.

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

tjrpatt — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 06:42:02 GMT

Phelps (like most flyers) takes 2 kicks per stroke. I think that's all that was meant by "double-kick technique." that is correct and Phelps's 2 kicks per stroke is hard to do for a full 50 meters. He does it for a 200 and makes it look so easy! Geesh. :applaud:

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 06:00:17 GMT

What I meant is that swimming the 200bf by breathing at every 2 strokes is a bad strategy, no matter the technique used. I'd love to hear anybody's description of Phelps *double-kick* technique. thanks! Got it! again it depends on the person, my former rival , previous age group breath every 2 and she is 2:27.. on long course! Do you want the description in Spanish? :)

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 05:52:06 GMT

... However, for swimming the 200, I'd say that it doesn't depend that much on the person. Starting for a 200 breathing every other at 40yo, not sure if it can be a winning strategy for anyone. did not get the last part, my poor English.... What I meant is that swimming the 200bf by breathing at every 2 strokes is a bad strategy, no matter the technique used. I'd love to hear anybody's description of Phelps *double-kick* technique. Does anyone sees a double kick in these executions (for instance)? YouTube - Michael Phelps Butterfly Tranining 1 YouTube - Michael Phelps - Butterfly 01

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

Former Member — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 05:18:48 GMT

... However, for swimming the 200, I'd say that it doesn't depend that much on the person. Starting for a 200 breathing every other at 40yo, not sure if it can be a winning strategy for anyone. did not get the last part, my poor English.... no double kick like Phelps. Just fat on my bottom, helps being on surface J Here in Europe is enough for ER . good luck!

RE: Butterfly, Breathing Every Stroke

That Guy — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 03:38:45 GMT

I'd love to hear anybody's description of Phelps *double-kick* technique. Does anyone sees a double kick in these executions (for instance)? Phelps (like most flyers) takes 2 kicks per stroke. I think that's all that was meant by "double-kick technique."