How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

ande — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:58:47 GMT

it's early in the season shaving and tapering will be critical today's jammers are way better than FS 1 or 2

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:52:15 GMT

Well - Cielo's record is 46.9 - that's probably as fast or faster than Lezak. As far as sub 19 in the 50 -- I don't think it's going to happen. Bousquet was under in 2005 - Cielo was under in 08, no LZR I believe, but both in full body suits. We can just put the American record back to Tom Jager and go from there ... The French swims were mentioned in swimming news - but it did not say if it was short-course or long course. I went to the French federation website and checked it out. They also have the results from the same meet last year - Bousquet was at 21.1 at that time .... I don't think sub 19 is going to happen either. If I were to set a line for the fastest time of the year I would put it at 19.15. I cannot believe the difference in times for Bousquet. 22.3 in SCM? I would have thought he could do that in practice in a practice suit. Didn't you go 23 low in practice with a Jaked? American record backto Jager??? Nah, Hall beat it by a wide margin in a FS1 jammer.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:51:42 GMT

Mwahahah. There's a big shake-up coming. :bump: It'll be fun to see who survives "withdrawal"... I foresee something akin to the Judgment of the Dead from Egyptian afterlife mythology, where a scale will decide which is heavier- the swimmer that wore the suit, or the suit that wore the swimmer. May all who fall in the latter category be consumed by the crocodile. Phelps will survive. It's up in the air for everyone else. Of course, I do wonder how much of it is due to beginning a new season. Obviously, though, suitlessness is compacting matters. any link to the times?

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:23:01 GMT

OK - so far no college kid has been under 20 ... well it's waaaayyy early, but I am taking bets that nobody in college will break 19 seconds this year ... Sub 1:38 looks like a really strong 200 Free time again ... The French "Legion" in sprint free had their first non suit meets -- Bousquet went 22.3 and the best 100 Free was 49.4. Those actually pretty good times -- good long-course times that is :applaud: -- too bad the meets were short-course. I think Leveaux was about 6 seconds above his 100 Free record :badday: Oh - and a German kid swam the 50 Fly faster than Bousquet in Free -- ouch

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:55:41 GMT

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

knelson — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:46:52 GMT

people were going under 19 before the LZR was ever released. However, I'm fairly confident no one has ever gone under 19 wearing just jammers and that's the situation they will be in this year. Not saying it can't be done, just that it hasn't yet. I think someone like Nathan Adrian is capable of a 19 low, but 18? We'll just have to see. I'll be very impressed if he breaks 19 seconds this season.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Calvin S — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:01:29 GMT

OK - so far no college kid has been under 20 ... well it's waaaayyy early, but I am taking bets that nobody in college will break 19 seconds this year ... people were going under 19 before the LZR was ever released. there will be someone under 19. maybe more than one person. i would be willing to agree that FEWER people will be under 19 than last year.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:21:35 GMT

It's pretty amazing to think that Lezak's 46. split in "the Relay" will probably not be duplicated again in the next 20 years without technology. That has to be as Super-Human as Bob Beamon's jump!! Has anyone else gone 46. as a split??? Is that equivelent to someone doing a 8.9 in the 100m dash?

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:42:44 GMT

This argument is obviously countered by the simple fact that more people are watching swimming and track and field now due to Phelps and Bolt, who, incidentally, regularly break world records. And you can't forget Frederick Bosque, Cesar Cielo, Gemma Spofforth and the countless recent swimming world record holders that have become household names. ...My point was that Bolt and Phelps are one of a generation kind of athletes. Look at the world record progression for the 200M dash: 1968 Tommie Smith 1979 Pietro Menea 1996 Michael Johnson 2008/09 Usain Bolt World records are extremely rare in a sport like track where technology doesn't drive the performance. Phelps would be just as famous with or without the suits. Paul Biederman is known not for breaking two world records, but for beating Phelps (with a tech suit on). World records have already become a non-issue in swimming at this point anyway.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

ourswimmer — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:58:50 GMT

Yeah, we realize people might cross-dress or even surgically alter their physically sexual characteristics, but unless I'm mistaken you still can't genetically alter one's sex. For most people, XX maps pretty accurately to "woman" and XY to "man." But the Slate article Chris S. linked to earlier explains several reasons why one's phenotypic sex might not match one's sex-chromosome genotype. It also explains why, for sports such as swimming and track in which the general consensus seems to be that fair competition requires distinguishing "women" from "men," just looking at people naked or looking at their chromosomes might not tell you everything you need to know to assign people to categories.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

aquageek — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:07:31 GMT

...The argument that you need to break a bunch of world records to make a sport watchable is garbage. This argument is obviously countered by the simple fact that more people are watching swimming and track and field now due to Phelps and Bolt, who, incidentally, regularly break world records.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

orca1946 — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:06:39 GMT

Practice in the pool how you want to finish, not the way the swimmer in front of you slows or stops too early !

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

knelson — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 11:15:33 GMT

But water is six times more dense than air (IIRC my HS science) No, you recall incorrectly. Try close to 800 times as dense.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

ourswimmer — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 07:00:12 GMT

But, it works about 99.99% of the time so it's a damn good starting point. Well, sure. For my purposes in life, it has even always worked out fine for the test subject to stay clothed. Ambiguities are pretty rare, and have never turned out to be important. But I am not running a world championship track meet.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

aquageek — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 01:16:56 GMT

... just looking at people naked or looking at their chromosomes might not tell you everything you need to know to assign people to categories. But, it works about 99.99% of the time so it's a damn good starting point.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:00:31 GMT

How many world records were set in the World track championships? I watched a lot of it and harldly heard world records mentioned - except of course for Bolt and he will be athlete of the year and go down as one of the greatest ever in track and field for breaking world records. ...The argument that you need to break a bunch of world records to make a sport watchable is garbage. It doesn't even seem like the world class swimmers care as long as the field is level.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

DPC — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:22:14 GMT

We had many arguments as to the tougher sport. I would bring up the limited breathing aspect, they would bring up the fact that I could float when done with my event, and not fall to the ground like a cut puppet. float at the end of a race??? I'm not sure how that argument even fits - when you say it out loud it sounds so ridiculous. So when they finish a sprint or a 440 they don't stop, they run forever, or somehow floating allows us to immediately recover?? Both running and swimming are a lot about learning to pace your race properly - but I still see swimming in a medium that is more dense, and using a less powerful set of muscles (maybe slightly so) is harder if you have a comparible distance/workout/time.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:34:21 GMT

I roomed with track guys in college. One was a 440 guy, another was a hurdler, and the last chap was a pole vaulter. None of them put in the training time I did. They most certainly spent more time in the weight room than I did. Technique was a huge part of their training. We had many arguments as to the tougher sport. I would bring up the limited breathing aspect, they would bring up the fact that I could float when done with my event, and not fall to the ground like a cut puppet. I would argue time in training, they would argue training smart. I would argue that swimmers must start young to be competitive, they would suggest talent must be present to be a winner in track. I called the three of them and asked their take on Bolt's runs. They all said "Dirty". Oh, two of my above roomies were taking steroids supplied by the team trainer. We knew that it was cheating, but....

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

DPC — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 04:58:06 GMT

A swimmer does not have to carry their own body weight - the amount of strength for one arm pull is so small comapred to what you need for a stride of running. Go right ahead - ask any runner to complete an equal to a college swim training program while running --- 60k in the water = about 240 k a week running. A marathon a day - no problem. And during hell week - they will do one in the morning and one in the evening :applaud: Ok - what is "new" in running in the last 20 years ? Bolt runs exactly like Carl Lewis - he is just taller. But water is six times more dense than air (IIRC my HS science), so it is more difficult to move through - also swimmers derive vastly more locomotion from their arms/upperbody vs legs and a runner derives vastly more from their legs ( a muscle mass many times greater than the upper body) - think of weight lifting, I can only bench at best 150 lbs, but can squat or leg press 300 plus, but I think my swimming time in a 100 would be faster (if there was a reliable conversion) than if I tried a 100 on the track. I don't know many runners, but those that I have known really never did the amount of training I did as a swimmer when I look back on it. The exception are cross country or long distance runners - sprinters never. Also we never really thought to to compare it and factor in tghe impact of not breathing 50% or more of the time. New in running is probably training methods, not so much "running" - Bolt runs flat out fast, but that is what he is built to do, no different than a lot of swimmers who are 50 and 100 sprinters - Lewis was also an excellent long jumper and probably have been a good decathlete (the shot and discus may have been weaker events). Bolt is to sprint track events what Ricky Henderson was to base stealing, some day both records will fall because someone will always become better, faster, and more capable.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:17:33 GMT

..... I also think, people saying that records don't add to the hype or popularity of a sport are way off base -- I could not tell any women's 200 track champions, but I sure know who is the "man" for the men. ehoch, Yes, but can you even remember even half the the names or people that set the 100+ World Records the last 2 years. The vast majority of these names seem to just slide into oblivion after their own records got broken again and again..... so many times in one year. I'm serious when I say, I stopped looking at my blackberry email updates from swimming world last year with the new world record announcements. It just got to be kind of joke. As for women's track champions...... Are you really watching them that closely? Their sport appears to be pretty dirty to me. ".... always look at track and field - especially the women's events. They now have a much cleaner sport. It was not even technology, it was PEDs causing all these ridiculous world records -- so fans should be more excited to have great performances by (hopefully) clean athletes. But I am not watching track any more -- I don't want to watch the women's long jump winner failing to clear 7 meters. The men's high jump has been at the same height for 25 years. By the way - does anybody think Usain Bolt is clean ? I would bet anything that he is not ..... "

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 12:47:49 GMT

What do you think? Do you care if you get beat by a person in the lane next to you in a masters event if he is wearing a rubber body condom and you are only wearing jammers? I have done both - I swam Nationals in a non-rubber suit and probably lost a race beacuse of it and I have "used" the suits to break a few records. In a strange way, I was happy with both - At Nationals, I wanted an exact comparison to what I did in the previous year .. so you have to wear the same suit. Breaking the records, I am pretty convinced that the people in my age group are wearing the same suits (unless they are older records - and with Mike Ross around there not many of those ...). I do think the current suits should be allowed in Masters -- I know many people don't think it's a big deal, but I just hate shaving and being able to put on a suit in mid-season to go fast without shaving is really important. I think the Jaked / Arena suits are about a 2-3% difference up to the 200 distances. I would not be surprised, if nobody actually breaks 48 for the 100 Free until 2012. I also think, people saying that records don't add to the hype or popularity of a sport are way off base -- I could not tell any women's 200 track champions, but I sure know who is the "man" for the men.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

aquageek — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:59:42 GMT

ehoch - you failed to post any data, just opinions, which is fine. But, don't pass your opinions as some sort of technical fact. Just because a running style is similar in no way means there aren't significant technical skills required, just ask any top level runner, as you like to point out. If you are a bad technical runner you will not be competitive. If you want proof, just go to any 10K, half or full marathon any weekend of the year.

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:26:09 GMT

This is really difficult to explain how someone can compete in the world championships without this issue being resolved prior to the competition I am soooo tired of nobody being to able to stop this kind of stuff from happening ... Why don't they settle this prior to the meet ? Why is Jamaica all over sudden the sprint mecca of the world and everybody is celebrating the "head clown"? Why do we have to look at a women's 400 dash record from an athlete where I can tell you the doping regimen she was under (or 100 or 200 or 800 or Long Jump or ....) ?

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:59:38 GMT

ehoch, The "what about us" portion of your thread. I have voiced my opinion on this forum about the rubber suits and vote for keeping them as a choice for masters swimmers. I don't think it's as important an issue when it comes to masters swimming vs. USA swimming and many masters swimmers like them a lot. What do you think? Do you care if you get beat by a person in the lane next to you in a masters event if he is wearing a rubber body condom and you are only wearing jammers?

RE: How slow will they go (and what about us ...) ?

Former Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:58:19 GMT

Why does track allow 1 false start & charge ALL?? Do as we do & kick the twitcher out for that event !! IAAF is phasing in zero tolerance for false starts in the next year or two. If y'all have an American IP address, Universal Sports online is carrying the British feed of the WC meet, and it's infinitely better coverage than what Vs. has been showing, especially for the field events.