It's here....what will Master's do?

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

DPC — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:49:02 GMT

Does anyone have any real data on how much faster tech suits are over the standard "good old racing suits" - similar to the time conversion of SCY times to SCM to LCM times. Maybe there is a way to "discount" or place someone's time in a tech suit to a non-tech suit time - and use that as a benchmark for qualifying for FINA sponsored events & lists, etc. Also, why not allow, all "textile" legskins and body suits as well as jammers and briefs. The time difference can't be that much. Maybe a compromise - and it get the rocket scientists some work.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:19:42 GMT

Meant to say "NOT forced to wear a tech suit" but got too typing too quickly. Understood. It's a hot topic coming from both sides of the fence. Not having worn one (a tech suit) and with no immediate chances of making a world ranking, my opinion is neither here nor there. If someone bumps me off the top ten list by a few 1/100ths because they had a speed suit, I'll just work harder for next the season. Allen's idea is very good. Since FINA tabulations only matter in short course and long course meters....masters swimmers should be allowed to keep the suits for yards swimming only. We are in fact the only country who recognizes this unit of measurement. And that said, why not make an exception to the suit rule (for yards meets).

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

KEWebb18 — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:11:30 GMT

Maybe the suit makers should be allowed to make men's knee-length body suits out of their "textiles" that would allow for more modesty. To me, that would be a fair compromise. I can't complain about the ruling though, as I am a female. I am still going to wear whatever suit I want until USMS tells me otherwise.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

knelson — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 06:42:01 GMT

Hey Kirk, lighten up or find another forum ! What did I say? :confused:

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

orca1946 — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 03:41:19 GMT

Hey Kirk, lighten up or find another forum !

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:51:30 GMT

If you are not going to comply specifically with FINA's rule, why bother in the first place? FINA may make an exempation for master swimmers. They may allow masters to wear bodysuits because of some of the previous issues people have talked about in regards to older swimmers bodies. If FINA exempts masters from the new rulings, then usms and other masters groups aren't ignoring FINA's rules.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:44:48 GMT

If you are not going to comply specifically with FINA's rule, why bother in the first place?

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:17:11 GMT

What will Master's do about this? You would think that masters will follow the same route. Although the percentage is very few...for those who make top ten FINA times, (performed at a masters meet)...there will be much confusion in ascertaining that the swim was done without the tech suit. How would meet organizers or officials keep tabs on who swam their time and with what kind of suit? It may be way too confusing.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:19:20 GMT

Not really. Maybe to be competitive, people feel more pressure into buying one? There are plenty of masters swimmers who refuse to plunk down several hundred dollars on a suit that lasts maybe one season. No one is forced into needless spending. I think what he's saying is that it's good motivation for an adult athlete to start looking a bit more fit instead of relying on the suit as a cover up rather than a time saver. At the end of the day if someone is more inclined to swim and compete because they have a full suit for modesty reasons, that's great. Meant to say "NOT forced to wear a tech suit" but got too typing too quickly. I would agree that if someone is using a bodysuit to cover-up because they don't want to take the time to get fit, then that isn't a good reason to wear one. But those people aren't the ones I am talking about anyway. While I understand Midas's point about them not being a major voice, I do believe everyone's point/voice should be heard and considered for USMS and it's members overall best interest.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:13:51 GMT

If Fina isn't going to allow zippers, that's going back about 1989 and earlier. Didn't Speedo have a womens racing suit with a high neck and zipper back in the early 90s? A woman could theoretically be disqualified for wearing a fashion suit with a plastic snap closer at the back. The S-2000. Came out in 1992 for both men and women. A few men tried it but it didn't catch on then. The aquablades started catching on with men around 1996.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:05:33 GMT

...People should be allowed to wear the suits they are most comfortable in, provided they aren't actual wetsuits but suits that have been at least approved in 2009 and before. If Fina isn't going to allow zippers, that's going back about 1989 and earlier. Didn't Speedo have a womens racing suit with a high neck and zipper back in the early 90s? A woman could theoretically be disqualified for wearing a fashion suit with a plastic snap closer at the back.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Allen Stark — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:55:43 GMT

I wouldn't be surprised if FINA said these rules didn't apply to Masters.Of course there is almost nothing FINA could do now that would surprise me.I suspect that USMS will wait for the FINA Masters Technical committee to make an announcement before reaching a decision.(On a personal note,I hope Masters gives us more time in the suits.I ordered a Jaked for Nats,but the second time I put it on it ripped and the replacement won't arrive in time.)

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:48:49 GMT

Pardon me,but Dave Radcliff is a hell of a good swimmer,but at 75 he is not competitive in USAS.I consider myself pretty good and very serious,but at 60 I would also not be competitive.(I have seen some 80+ swimmers who look just fine in a Speedo,that is one of the great things about Masters Swimming.) Allen, I can't argue with anything you say. I consider myself to be a VERY serious swimmer as well and reasonably competitive in USMS. I am not competitive in USAS. I have also seen older swimmers who look very buff. Dave Radcliff is one good example. However, I have seen EXTREMELY FIT AND FAST older swimmers who do not look particularly good with flesh hanging out. I can PM you with a list of very fast (National and World champions, Olympians and record holders) master's swimmers who don't LOOK fit via the magazine model norms. Just because the flesh hangs out does not mean that they are not fit. These people do not need to get in shape, as one poster recently opined. But, if they feel more comfortable swimming in a suit that covers that flesh why not have the chance? If they want it to hang out, that should be an option as well.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:39:22 GMT

Pardon me, but I very much give a damn about masters swimming. Most of the instances cited in which USMS rules differ from other governing bodies do not make USMS swimmers faster and appear to me to be an accommodation primarily to older swimmers. The suits just make people go faster. That is a very significant difference. By the way, I think I'm plenty "good" even though I can't compete in USAS or the international stage. I do very well with a real life and limited training time, legitimately competing against similarly situated people. USMS is not "beer league softball". I find it to be pretty serious competition. Yes, so do I. I care about master's swimming and I don't really believe that USMS is a 'beer league.' However, my point is that even my mother when she was still alive didn't give a damn about my swimming and didn't know anything about it. My youngest son is a lifelong athlete and doesn't know a thing or care a thing about master's swimming. It's those kinds of folks I was referring to when I said that no one cares about what we do or how we do it. That's most of the world.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

BillS — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:37:33 GMT

From a prior post in another thread: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by The Fortress Perhaps USMS is waiting for FINA to make a(nother) statement about the applicability of its ban to masters? Exactly. Kathy Casey posted this over on the Nationals forum: Regarding the FINA swimsuit rules, the FINA Executive Director and one of the FINA Masters Technical Commission members said those were not meant for Masters. However, we are waiting to hear an official statement from the FINA Masters Technical Committee as a whole about how these swimwear rules impact Masters. __________________ Kathy Casey I think USMS should do what the NCAA just did: Screw FINA, and adopt its own rule. With the possible exception of the permeability standard (who cares whether jammers are permeable anyway?) the NCAA rule looks pretty easy to implement and judge. At this point, I no longer care what rule USMS adopts, but I see no reason to wait around while FINA stumbles and bumbles along. Regarding the tie string, the NCAA rule allows it: The swimsuit shall not have any zippers or fasteners other than a waist tie for a brief or a jammer.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:27:49 GMT

People are forced to wear tech suits,Not really. Maybe to be competitive, people feel more pressure into buying one? There are plenty of masters swimmers who refuse to plunk down several hundred dollars on a suit that lasts maybe one season. No one is forced into needless spending. I think what he's saying is that it's good motivation for an adult athlete to start looking a bit more fit instead of relying on the suit as a cover up rather than a time saver. At the end of the day if someone is more inclined to swim and compete because they have a full suit for modesty reasons, that's great.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:12:56 GMT

according to Swedish Masters Swimming chairman there are not two set of rules. so unless FINA makes expections to the rules for Masters swimming, I would assume that Worlds in Aug 2010 will be swum with the same FINA rules regarding suits. That's not entirely true. Back in May when the first ruling on suits came out, a member of the FINA bureau said the suit rulings didn't apply to masters. USMS and other masters organizations are probably waiting until they hear something official from FINA about how the rulings apply to masters before making anything public. The NCAA doesn't have to follow FINA guidelines if it doesn't want to about suits but it will since USA swimming is following the suit rules, so that swimmers at college meets could be given credit for U.S. Open and/or American records that maybe achieved during NCAA meets.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:00:08 GMT

Do these people wear their full body suits to all practices too? Maybe they wear tee-shirts or surfing shirts? This must be a very small group of people indeed. Not sure they should be driving the decision (or even really factoring into it in any significant way)... Again, it maybe laughable to you but not to people that have been down this path . No one group should be the deciding factor but every group should definitly have input in the decision.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 11:57:52 GMT

To me, forcing masters swimmers to swim in briefs is good encouragement to get in shape. Natural body shaping should be a part of swimming and encouraged for a healthy lifestyle. Doesn't this make sense? No, it doesn't make sense. Why should someone be forced to wear a brief. People are NOT forced to wear tech suits, so why should be ok the other way. People should be allowed to wear the suits they are most comfortable in, provided they aren't actual wetsuits but suits that have been at least approved in 2009 and before.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 11:50:12 GMT

I DON'T want to see old people in Speedo's! I DON'T want to see me in a Speedo! Speedo's should be banned! (at least for Master's) Then you should enjoy reading this. forums.usms.org/blog.php

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:38:06 GMT

I DON'T want to see old people in Speedo's! I DON'T want to see me in a Speedo! Speedo's should be banned! (at least for Master's)

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Redbird Alum — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:30:45 GMT

USMS will follow suit, otherwise elite Masters' performances at USMS sanctioned meets become less relevant on the World stage, unless USMS implements a suit testing policy at each event. I do have a question about the "no fastening device" ruling... would that include the tie string in men's briefs?

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Allen Stark — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:00:05 GMT

It seems to me that if FINA says the suit rules don't apply to Masters then USMS should follow that,otherwise we are at a competitive disadvantage to the rest of the world. If FINA says they do,then any of us interested in FINA TT or WRs had better hope that USMS follows suit for LCM and SCM.It is in SCY(which is the most important venue for most USMS swimmers) where there is some flexibility.I think that in the interest of fairness USMS should not implement the rules for SCY before 5/31/10 as there will be SCY meets this fall which will count in the 09/10 SCY season.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:51:01 GMT

That does make sense. The real benefit for some is that the suits carved away unwanted pounds not necessarily time. That said I've never once seen any masters swimmer catch any grief for wearing a Speedo. with the exception of the infamous Speedo man.

RE: It's here....what will Master's do?

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:02:07 GMT

You have a valid point. At the same time isn't it possible that the wide-spread use of these high tech suits inhibits other masters swimmers from competing? They may feel, for whatever reason, that the tech suit is not for them and that they are at a disadvantage without one. I personally know of two people who feel this way. BTW, I personally love to compete in the tech suits but I'm in favor of masters following FINA. I will suffer for my sport and endure the dreaded shaving down. Rich Rich, you as well have a valid point. Personally, if they want to rid the sport of non-permeable suits of the polyuerthane(sp?) brand, no arguement from me. Yes, I have one and have swam in it. Wasn't that crazy about it either. Those are the bodysuits that have really driven the prices up, to make it more difficult for people to purchase one or justify purchasing one. I do believe the companies can make a permeable, affordable suit if they choose too. If USMS does decide to follow FINA's ruling on suits, while I won't be thrilled having to swim in jammers, I will do so because I want to compete. But I do understand your point of view on the suits as well. Thanks for understanding.