Should USMS follow "suit" ?

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

jim thornton — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:07:59 GMT

the difference for me was .5 seconds for a 50 and 1 second for a 100. At my speed, that's about a 1/60 or 1.6 % difference. I am not certain if I am doing the math correctly here, but last season, I swam a 52.90 for the 100 free in a B70. I can't be absolutely sure of this, but I might be able to do a 54.9 in jammers (though I'd be very surprised if I could go this fast.) The difference is a minimum of 2 seconds, though probably more. Here's where the math becomes challenging. Which 100 time do you use for the denominator? If you use the faster time, i.e., 52.90, then 2 seconds represents a 3.78 percent increase in time without the suit. If you use the slower time, i.e., 54.9, then 2 seconds represents a 3.64 decrease in time with the suit. Either way, I anticipate going almost 4 percent slower without the speed suit, and quite possibly 5 percent or more. This is just for the 100. I wonder if the change might be even more exacerbated for longer distances, or, for that matter, the 50? Here's what I propose: some math wizzard on these forums take Phil Arcuini's excellent Finnish Formula calculator http://n3times.com/swimtimes/ and add a further fudge factor for B70 body kayaks-to-polyester jammer conversion, and guys like me will have some way to convince ourselves that the sudden plummeting in our swimming performance post B70 era is not necessarily the result of a heart myxoma or occult leprosy.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Allen Stark — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 11:53:45 GMT

since I swim in both USA and USMS meets, I need to break out the old fast banana hammocks again. on that note, does anyone know where one might be able to obtain a paper suit? or is it even still possible to purchase them from somewhere? Speedo FS Pro is essentially a paper suit.It comes in Jammers and I suppose in briefs though I haven't checked.Tyr Tracer Light is similar.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

jim thornton — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 09:15:45 GMT

Thanks, Kirk, it looks to the simple minded that I am losing more than I gained. But I suppose it's like the stock market. If you lose 50 percent in one year, and regain 50 percent the next year, you are still down a hell of a lot of money, right? Example: a $2 million portfolio loses 50 percent in 2008. Amount in account now: $1 million. The $1 million portfolio gains 50 percent in 2009. Amount now: $1.5 million. Net loss: $1/2 million. Now, apply the same basic math but start with my own portfolio, worth $117 in 2008. I think women must really like me for me. But somehow, I am once again slipping away from the moorings of the original topic.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 05:53:39 GMT

Agonswim sells paper suits for women. Not sure about the men's line. I love paper fabric

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

knelson — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 02:11:06 GMT

Here's where the math becomes challenging. Which 100 time do you use for the denominator? You're trying to find out how much slower you'll go with a non-tech suit, so your baseline is the tech suit. The calculation would be 2/52.9 = 3.8% Conversely, if you wanted to know how much faster the tech suit is compared to jammers it would be 2/54.9 = 3.6%.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Calvin S — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 02:04:53 GMT

Speedo FS Pro is essentially a paper suit.It comes in Jammers and I suppose in briefs though I haven't checked.Tyr Tracer Light is similar. worn or felt all of them, and none of them felt quite like a paper suit. I had people tell me the LZR was basically a paper suit too, again, it did not feel the same to me. Agonswim sells paper suits for women. Not sure about the men's line. I love paper fabric ^this...I will check it out and see if they have a mens line too.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:54:41 GMT

Heard a rumor that Thorpes body suit with arms was so tight he wore another tech suit under it to help slide it on. Bet there were some swimmers stacking suits years ago before FINA was even aware that it was an issue. FINA & USA swimming needs to do something about reframing the real records, I have a feeling it's going to be a long time before we see a male in a jammer break 21 in the 50 LCM free, there's comparisons in every event. I'm curious to see what times will be in 2010 (especially mine) I think there will be about a 4-5% difference(maybe a little more) on average between jammers and speed suits.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

jeremyc — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:22:35 GMT

the difference for me was .5 seconds for a 50 and 1 second for a 100. At my speed, that's about a 1/60 or 1.6 % difference.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Calvin S — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:15:47 GMT

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Tim L — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:14:36 GMT

I think there will be about a 4-5% difference(maybe a little more) on average between jammers and speed suits. I think about half of that and maybe less for some. A 4%-5% increase in time is a huge difference to attribute to the suit only. Has anyone had a 5% time decrease by wearing a tech suit while training the exact same way? Tim

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:45:18 GMT

Neither option is going to please everyone. So I like the idea of following FINA for meters, and do whatever we please for yards. I don't know if it is a good idea or not -- guess it would depend on how it would affect participation -- but it wouldn't be the first time there were different rules for yards and meters.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 06:00:34 GMT

Neither option is going to please everyone. So I like the idea of following FINA for meters, and do whatever we please for yards.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:59:42 GMT

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:13:48 GMT

Pls: it is Coca-Cola. phewww! thanks for clearing that up.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:07:35 GMT

sorry about that. That makes it even more amazing to me that no one talks about this. History seems to have been revised to list the LZR suits as the start of this mess. S'alright. There was a big stink about the suits in 2000 but nothing like now.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:53:09 GMT

Ian Thorpe began wearing a full body suit in the 2003 world championships. His suit also covered his arms. I don't know why no one ever talks about this, especially when mentioning his "unbeatable" records, one of which Biedermann broke. here's a picture: www.tribuneindia.com/.../wi6.jpg and an article: http://www.gizmag.com/go/2071/ Hmmmm....you information isn't correct. Thorpe started wearing the addidas full body suit in 2000 around the time of the Aussie olympic trials. He wore it in the finals of the 400 free at the olympics, where he set the world record, then proceeded to wear it during the 400 free relay final, his 3 swims in the 200 free and the 800 free relay. He wore it in every major meet since then, including his swims in the 100 back at the commonwealth games and the 200 IM at the 03 worlds.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:17:28 GMT

I remember reading an article when this "Controversy" first started that talked about the full body suit popularity really coming out of masters swimming. So if the popularity originated with us why would we want to change it?

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:34:25 GMT

Suits aren't "unhealthy;" they're just (very recently) controversial. Theoretically I agree. But kicking the tech suit habit was worse for me than kicking caffeine, alcohol, or other vices. It was more depressing perhaps? It felt more psychologically "unhealthy." And I've not successfully completely kicked any of these things 100%. "Kicking and screaming" along with some crying and "whinning" is right on.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:09:50 GMT

And what about that all day Pepsi habit of yours, eh? Suits aren't "unhealthy;" they're just (very recently) controversial. Pls: it is Coca-Cola. And, as often as not, decaf. Coffee too. Caffeine can make me too jittery. One can argue that any addiction is unhealthy in a sense. I will gladly stick to water/gatorade for an entire Zones or Nats meet if you stick to textile, even if rubber is still legal.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

jeremyc — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:59:42 GMT

sorry about that. That makes it even more amazing to me that no one talks about this. History seems to have been revised to list the LZR suits as the start of this mess.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

jeremyc — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:30:41 GMT

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Former Member — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 06:45:07 GMT

FINA & USA swimming needs to do something about reframing the real records, (especially mine) The real records? WTF? All the records have been done according to FINA rules, so they are the real records.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:46:31 GMT

The real records? WTF? All the records have been done according to FINA rules, so they are the real records. To rip off Jim Rude's oft-repeated comment, WORD.

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

Paul Smith — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:11:51 GMT

But for me, masters swimming is less about the times and more (much more) about racing. The times are just a way to "keep score". So, having stunk up the Indy pool in my B70, I will commit to racing in textile jammers from now on. 100% agree....may be the first time ever between me and Le breastroker/teddy bear boy! The quote "it's only masters" has been used over and over again with everyone seeming to have their own opinion as to how it relates to themselves...I'll add to that by saying Jim's statement above plays on my thoughts about "it's only masters" in that IMHO those who measure themselves based on records and times are going to have a much harder time than those that simply love to race...regardless of what they are wearing, how old they or even male vs. female (I got my ass kicked by my wife in a 2k recently for example).

RE: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

ande — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 01:46:14 GMT