Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

tjrpatt — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:20:51 GMT

Australia stopped watching the world champs due to the suit wars. Bowman is on a tear with his comments. He just keeps yapping and yapping. Overall, FINA just looks heavily unorganized and really needs to get their crap together.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:53:45 GMT

I'll repeat what I said earlier: I think everyone is being way too hard on Phelps. Phelps was beaten by a swimmer that was not even in his league until this week. No elite swimmer who has presumably been training at a very high level for years suddenly drops 4 seconds at the age of 23. It just does not happen. I would hope that I would smile and nod and shake the other fellow's hand. But I will not judge Phelps for his reaction. Everyone seems to forget that Phelps blamed himself, and his own alleged lack of training, in the press conference. I think Phelps is being too hard on himself - he came within .3 of his WR in the 200 freestyle, probably his most remarkable swim from the Olympics. Phelps was in fine shape. Biedermann had one of the most remarkable performances in swimming history, and just happens to be wearing a suit that will be illegal in four months. And to give Biedermann credit, he has admitted the advantage the suit gives him. He would like get rid of them too I think. I don't blame him for doing everything in his power, legally, to win. But neither do I blame Phelps and his coach for pointing out the obvious inequities. I don't doubt Phelp's graciousness in defeat, or that the fast suit offers an advantage - the rub is with Speedo Consultant Bowman, throwing a tantrum only at the moment his athlete is disadvantaged by technology... the same athlete who historically took advantage of technology with Bowman's blessing. This is a serious "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation - I have yet to see anyone address Bowman's pathetic hypocrisy in this matter to my satisfaction. I can't believe he's saying what he's saying with a straight face.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

mikeh — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:23:55 GMT

I don't doubt Phelp's graciousness in defeat, or that the fast suit offers an advantage - the rub is with Speedo Consultant Bowman, throwing a tantrum only at the moment his athlete is disadvantaged by technology... the same athlete who historically took advantage of technology with Bowman's blessing. This is a serious "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation - I have yet to see anyone address Bowman's pathetic hypocrisy in this matter to my satisfaction. I can't believe he's saying what he's saying with a straight face. I agree with you there. At least Bowman is advocating throwing all records out - Phelps' included. But the moral outrage should have happened last year, when Olympic swimmers were scarmbling to get the LZR or risk losing to slower swimmers. I still don't blame Bowman for being bent out of shape after losing to Biedermann. And again, I don't blame Biedermann a bit for finding the fastest suit available within the rules. He seems like a nice guy. We'll see what happens when both competitors take the suits off.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

mikeh — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:18:54 GMT

As Frank Thompson just posted, 8 months ago in SCM he went faster than Phelps ever has...This meet is filled with people making incredible drops to set WRs and NRs, and they are mostly not teenagers either. This particular swim seems to defy your belief only because Phelps was the victim. So it took Biedermann only 3 months to drop 4 seconds instead of 11 months? I don't think that buttresses anyone's case that Biedermann relied only on hard work and natural talent to drop all his time. Regarding your other point, there are numerous swims at these WC that have shocked me. Biedermann's is only one of several.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:45:55 GMT

...everyone knew that Phelps was in big trouble. He did take a 6 month break, then got suspended for 3 months after that, did not swim in a competitive meet for 9 months and these are additional factors in his swimming that people don't want to talk about but just want to focus on the suits. That's a good point. Would he have gone under 1:42 in the 200 though? Who knows? The 1:43 club had very few members up until a couple of days ago. Is it because of the suits? or better training?

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:45:48 GMT

In my experience people who train at an elite level well into their 20's have problems maturing emotionally until they quit swimming and enter the real world. It appears MP is no different, and his coach not much better. None of this is particularly surprising. Biedermann had an amazing swim.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:38:11 GMT

Geek- Heck, even you have evolved in the last few years... Yes, he has finally managed to tie his own shoes and to walk upright on 2 legs. While the rest of human race figured it out thousands of years ago, geek has only been able to do it since the introduction of tech suits.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:23:44 GMT

Y'all need to lighten up. Just because he didn't smile and congratulate him after a race doesn't make him out to be the guy that I am reading about here. The guy despises to losing and he just lost a race (and a WR mind you) to a guy that dropped 4 SECONDS(!!) in 11 months. I am sure he was a bit surprised and frustrated as anyone would be. Heck even Biederman said the suit made the difference. I am pretty sure he would've beaten Phelps in a LZR but we will never know. Please watch this press conference and tell me what is so unsportsmanlike about this: www.swimnetwork.com/.../michael_phelps_speaks_humbly-16905.html P.S. All champions hate to lose, but guys who have taken it to the next level DESPISE losing. That's what makes him one of the greatest atheletes of all time. Same with Jordan, Armstrong, Woods, etc.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:53:09 GMT

Geek- I will point out that Andre Agassi went through a very long journey to get to the point where he was able to lose gracefully, perhaps this will help Phelps evolve as a person. Heck, even you have evolved in the last few years...

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:45:41 GMT

I find it really hilarious that everyone here is criticizing Phelps, when people who are actually in Rome praised him for being a gracious, respectful competitor in his press conference. He gave full props to Biedermann, saying he had the better race and was in better shape. He said the swimmer beat him, not the suit. Check out Garrett McCaffrey's take on SwimPulse. That being said, Bowman was really rash with his comments. From what I've heard, his little ultimatum came almost immediately after he learned that FINA is pushing back the ban on the suits. I think his little outburst had less to do with Phelps losing & more to do with even more evidence of FINA's incompetence. He should have kept his mouth shut, though.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:37:45 GMT

I disagree. There is nothing that says you have to be a boorish dope when you lose, no matter how great you were/are. I think this is simply another in a long line of immature behavior by Phelps. Anyone watch Andre Agassi's last match? That's how you lose with grace. Word to the Geek. Just because someone is a great athlete does not automatically mean they have brains, common sense, class or integrity. You only have to review the NFL, NBA, MLB etc Halls of Shame for evidence.IMHO, Phelps has now joined the club. Rule no. 1 of swimming: eventually there will be someone faster than you, so take pride in your accomplishments, but acknowledge those of others, too.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Former Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:50:35 GMT

Originally Posted by 3strokes Then I console myself that UniversalSports will have live (or taped) coverage during the week. However, living in Canada, I can get to watch UniversalSports' commercials but not the footage (not valid in my area.) There's just no way to get any respect as a Canadian Swimmer/swimming fan. Yeah, but I was in Canada during the 2005 Worlds in Montreal and the CBC's coverage then was outstanding. So was I (but in Ottawa). I still have the video recordings (both English and French channels) and re-watch them at times. But you see, that's the whole point of my rant: Most countries' coverages are biased. Where are the truly UNIVERSAL Sports media?

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

ande — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:35:23 GMT

this loss will make phelps better, he'll train with determination to recapture the record in the 200 free.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Patrick W. Brundage — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:30:33 GMT

Someone took their innovative idea and made it better. Capitalism at its best. Sorry, Speedo, but get your scientists out of hibernation and maybe one day soon, you'll again have the best suits in the pool. Absolutely correct. Speedo got beaten in the market, fair & square. It's just sad to see the greatness of capitalism (better products, better availability and, had it been left to continue unfettered, lower prices) now mired by the worst of corporate cronyism and protectionism cloaked under some guise of returning to the "purity of the sport." With their "unionized" sponsored swimmers whining, Speedo's starting to sound like the UAW. Then I console myself that UniversalSports will have live (or taped) coverage during the week. However, living in Canada, I can get to watch UniversalSports' commercials but not the footage (not valid in my area.) There's just no way to get any respect as a Canadian Swimmer/swimming fan. Yeah, but I was in Canada during the 2005 Worlds in Montreal and the CBC's coverage then was outstanding.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

aquageek — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:29:44 GMT

P.S. All champions hate to lose, but guys who have taken it to the next level DESPISE losing. That's what makes him one of the greatest atheletes of all time. Same with Jordan, Armstrong, Woods, etc. Mr. FOP - no one is arguing he hates to lose. The point is hating to lose doesn't mean being a poor sport. But, as Cruise the Commie from Canader points out, with age comes humility, maybe.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

ourswimmer — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:18:05 GMT

I disagree. There is nothing that says you have to be a boorish dope when you lose, no matter how great you were/are. I think this is simply another in a long line of immature behavior by Phelps. I agree as well and am not surprised. When I saw MP on one of the late-night shows after the Olympics, he did not compliment his competition even once. The host gave him a bunch of easy opportunities to say, "everyone swam really well, and it's great to be among such a strong group of competitors who have pushed me to achieve my very best," but he did not rise to any of them. Just kept grinning and repeating how hard he'd worked and how great he felt.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

aquageek — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:00:29 GMT

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Michael Heather — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:24:07 GMT

Word, Skip. A lot of ruffled feathers from the old hens, but I guess they need the exercise.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Frank Thompson — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:17:35 GMT

Phelps lost for the first time in 4+ years, he's pissed - he knows he didn't train enough, the suits tech has caught up and surpassed the LZR and he got beat by a guy who wasn't very much on the radar - Biedermann swam a huge race, immense from start to finish - did the suit give him the extra 1.22 sec - maybe, more than likely. If they were to have raced in LZRs it could very well (likely?) have been a different result. These statements are not exactly true. In November 2007 at the US Nationals at Georgia Tech in Atlanta, Phelps lost for the first time to Ryan Lochte in the 200 IM (1:40.08 to 1:41.32) and he set the American Record in the process. In August of 2006, Phelps was defeated by Aaron Peirsol in the 200 Back (1:56.36 to 1:57.09) at the US Nationals/Selection meet for the Pan Pacific Championships. Then at the 2006 Pan Pacific Championships in the final of the 200 Meter Back, he was defeated again (1:54.44 to 1:56.81) so this statement as its written is not correct. These 3 races along with the one yesterday proves he has lost by over a second to competitors in the past. Your statement about Biedermann not being much on the rader is completely false. Last November in a World Cup meet in Berlin he broke a World Record of Ian Thorpe in the 200 Free. I provided a link to that swim in the other thread. He broke the record by .37 (1:40.83 to 1:41.10) and no one except Ian Thorpe has gone in the 1:41 range. In 2007, he went a 1:42.39 in the 200 SCM Free. In comparison, swimmers like Park went 1:42.22, Hayden went 1:42.35, and Magnini went 1:42.54 as there SCM best times. Phelps went 1:42.78 in 2006 for comparison. So he put the world on notice last November that he was a guy to watch. Anybody that breaks an Ian Thorpe WR, has to be noticed. This year he did the same thing in the LCM format before this meet started with two outstanding swims in the 200 LCM Free. On 6-14-09, he went 1:44.88 at Mare Nostrum in Monte Carlo. On 6-28-09, he went 1:44.71 at the German Nationals in Berlin, which is the exact time that Ian Thorpe did when he won the 200 Free at the 2004 Olympics in Athens. Those times were the fastest in the world until Phelps went 1:44.23 at Indy earlier this month so the difference here is less than a half second. When everyone saw what Biedermann did in the 400 Free and how he raced the second half of that race, everyone knew that Phelps was in big trouble. He did take a 6 month break, then got suspended for 3 months after that, did not swim in a competitive meet for 9 months and these are additional factors in his swimming that people don't want to talk about but just want to focus on the suits.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

aquageek — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:04:05 GMT

That link by Chris sums it up, especially the MJ video. As much as it pains me that dunk by Starks is one of the top 10 dunks of all time, Jordan has the other 9 however. If you look at LeBron, Phelps, Vick what you see is three young guns who have been coddled and told they are the greatest since they were 12 or 13. They never lost, were never told they were anything but the greatest and therefore developed no humility or sportsmanship. Sometimes that comes with age (or jail, in Vick's and Burress' case).

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

mctrusty — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:00:30 GMT

this loss will make phelps better, he'll train with determination to recapture the record in the 200 free. Maybe the win will make Biedermann train harder too with the intent of staying on top. What then for Phelps? Will he give up on the 200 free? I would hope not, I love a good rivalry.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

mctrusty — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:49:04 GMT

Third, Geek!

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

knelson — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:42:50 GMT

I bet someone at Speedo HQ put in an urgent call to their Chinese factory to cut LZR production by 90% after the first day of Worlds. After Phelps got beat yesterday they've probably ceased production entirely.

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:40:56 GMT

It was poor behavior. Everyone realizes that part of the success of greats like Phelps, Armstrong, Jordan, etc is their ultra-hyper-competitiveness that drives them every day. In their prime, they aren't very accustomed to losing at all, never mind with grace. I don't think Phelps or Bowman ever seriously considered the possibility that Phelps could lose. Everyone has been damning Phelps and he deserves it. But IMO Bowman behaved at least as badly, and in his role as coach and mentor he should be doing a lot better. Phelps is still pretty immature, and it shows; he depends on Bowman, who I believe serves as a surrogate father-figure, to teach him better behavior. Snippy temper tantrums don't do that very well. Here is a story comparing the behavior of another poor loser (LeBron James) to that of the greatest basketball player ever. www.slate.com/.../

RE: Of Speedo, Phelps, Bowman and Schubert

The Fortress — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:38:42 GMT

What I want to know is why has Speedo neglected to develop and release a LZR 2.0 or equivalent? They had to know this arms race was coming after the uproar over the LZR's availability leading up to Beijing. With no answer to the B70, X-Glide and Jaked (anyone else notice how close to the phrase "jacked up" that company name is?), their athletes are stuck in the same way the Germans, et al. were stuck in Beijing. Someone took their innovative idea and made it better. Capitalism at its best. Sorry, Speedo, but get your scientists out of hibernation and maybe one day soon, you'll again have the best suits in the pool. I've wondered this same thing. Perhaps Speedo was banking on the X-Glide, Jaked, Hydrofoil being banned? After all, for a few short months they were banned and the LZR was positioned to rule supreme indefinitely ... Biedermann is legit and was having a monster year. It wasn't just the suit that accounted for his time drop since Beijing.