Phelps is going down ....

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Sun, 09 Aug 2009 16:05:11 GMT

Short is actually not too awful on Ninja Warrior unless you're talking like 5'2" short because so many of the obstacles, especially on the third stage, have a lot to do with strength-weight ratio. The cross the ledge using only your fingertips obstacle that was a third stage staple for many tournaments put the bigger competitors at a significant disadvantage. I couldn't get heights on the Sasuke All-Stars, but Jordan Jovtchev is listed as 5'7" and he's one of the few guys ever to make it past the first three rounds. As for swimmers, I can remember a handful of Japanese ones showing up over the years with moderate success. In terms of US-based elite swimmers, so many of them are utter klutzes on land, but how about Erik Vendt? Not too talk, can probably be talked into any number of crazy things.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

funkyfish — Sat, 08 Aug 2009 08:17:01 GMT

Me either. I remember that, he acted like a real ***. I enjoyed watching him lose on Ninja Warrior. :D I'm not familiar with his stats, but most gymnasts are fairly short, right? Ninja Warrior is not a contest geared for short people since many of the challenges involve jumping and reaching for things to climb up/over. I didn't see that particular episode, but wonder if he went into it too sure of himself? I'd also be curious to see how some sprinters or middle distance swimmers would do at Ninja Warrior.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2009 07:26:45 GMT

I'm not a big fan of Paul Hamm ever since he won the all-around gold in 2004 due to a scoring error but still acted like he deserved to win. Me either. I remember that, he acted like a real ***. I enjoyed watching him lose on Ninja Warrior. :D

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2009 07:23:32 GMT

Sportsmanship in the pool does matter. These athletes are representing our country and it would be nice to see them conduct themselves accordingly. If they're going to trash talk or gloat, I would rather see that happen in a press conference ('Quit whining, ***. The clock doesn't lie'.) than roid rage in the pool. Once you enter the venue of competition, rules of sportsmanship should be honored. Of course this is just my spectator's opinion.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:08:03 GMT

In the AP story of July 28, this is what we find: While Biedermann hung on the lane rope, thrusting his right hand in the air, Phelps stared at the scoreboard for a few seconds before heading off in the opposite direction, not even bothering to shake hands with the swimmer who had just handed him his first big individual loss since July 30, 2005. The article also quotes Phelps, after his loss and the topic of the tech suits in the air: "It's going to be fun next year," he said, "when swimming is back to swimming." (my emphasis) Huh? Now, Keith M. says that Phelps shook B's hand even though it wasn't on TV....nice to hear that but who saw it? Keith? And assuming Phelps did I wish they caught it on camera, for Phelps's sake. I don't want to be hard on Phelps. The guy proved in his race against Cavic that he is the most gifted and intense competitive swimmer we have seen in, well, in my life anyway. He is simply the best. But to say "next year when swimming is back to swimming" after he lost sounds like whining and it is ungenerous to Biedermann. When Phelps had the LZR with its polyurethane patches and was kicking ass in Beijing, did he consider that "swimming"? Of course. So, he said and did a couple of things that a more mature person would not do or say. Not such a big deal, but no point in our glossing over it because of his phenomenal ability as a swimmer. And why do I care? Good question. I think because at some fundamental level we idolize these guys because their athletic ability is both beautiful and stunning. I want them to be both athletic gods and paragons of virtue. It's unrealistic but I saw a good bit of that at Rome (e.g. Stephannie Rice towards Kukors who just smashed her world record). I think Phelps learned a hell of a lot at this meet and will grow from it. His coach....? Well, I don't know.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Allen Stark — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:43:03 GMT

Before the 100 Fly Phelps was incredibly intense and focused,I don't think he can just turn it off when his hand hit the wall.By the medals ceremony he was more gracious.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

knelson — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:54:20 GMT

When I don't like smack is when it becomes extremely bad. For example I remember in another sport I watch gymnastics. Paul Hamm a year ago was saying some things about Yang Wei which went out of line. I'm not a big fan of Paul Hamm ever since he won the all-around gold in 2004 due to a scoring error but still acted like he deserved to win.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:53:50 GMT

This shaking hand thing does not mean anything. If you get beat then shake the guy's hand that beat you, what are you really saying under your breath.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:08:40 GMT

It wasn't captured on TV but Phelps did shake Biedermann's hand as they exited the pool. My bad. But I guess I'm just trying to say is depending on the circumstances, I don't think a little ribbing is bad. And I actually in someways cannot blame Cavic for pointing out that Phelps could use the suits if he wanted to, because look at what happened when Biedermann beat Phelps. It became all about the suits. Not said directly by Phelps, but certainly by others. When I don't like smack is when it becomes extremely bad. For example I remember in another sport I watch gymnastics. Paul Hamm a year ago was saying some things about Yang Wei which went out of line. He literally said well Yang is going to be under more pressure than me, because who knows what the Chinese government will do to him, if he doesn't bring home the Gold. It was quite ridiculous comment actually because we'll Paul Hamm knew quite well that Yang and the entire Chinese bombed big time in Athens me and women. And well, they all lived to see the next day. Several of the bombing gymnasts were at the time Hamm spoke attending some of China's top universities. If you have moderate success as an athlete in Chin (like win a world cup title in bars for example, you get huge points off your admission test to China's top universities. I guess I'm saying is long as the smack talk is fair and not completely out of line. I don't see the big deal. Of course though with Phelps you might want to think about the dangers of getting him fired up and angry. Biedermann played Phelps a lot better than Cavic did.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 16:12:21 GMT

I didn't mind Phelp's celebration, but then I actually like it when swimmers show big demonstrative emotion after a race instead of an almost 'yeah I gotta remember to smile' smile. Cesar Cielo's taken criticism for celebrating big in the water after a great race as well. Hope Cielo never tunes it down because I like how he utterly wears his heart of his sleeve.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 16:03:02 GMT

He's a sore loser and a graceless winner. His apelike antics in the pool were an embarrassment. Thumping his chest, sitting on the lane line and shoving his ass in Cavic's lane, refusing to look at Cavic and acknowledge him when Cavic congratulated him. Very disappointing. Some of this post was really too hard on Phelps (we can get pretty carried away with our imagery, and posting is very easy, too easy). But Thrashing Slug ("thrashing slug"??!..I still don't quite grasp this aspect of forums) makes a good point. First, I want to say that I think Phelps proved himself to be an even better and more amazing swimmer than I thought he was...and I already thought he was the best ever. Coming back on Cavic in that 100 fly...well, I thought before the race he was going to lose. He was amazing. But I think he needs to respect his competitors more than he does. Cavic did needle him prior to the race but it helped Phelps focus. At the end....the race is OVER and the guy next to him swam faster than ANYONE has ever swum the 100 fly ever except for Phelps himself. He should have congratulated Cavic on a great swim. Instead he got carried away with the thumping etc. And after the 200 free he didn't even shake Biedermann's hand and B'man was very gracious and generous in all his post race remarks (and he broke the old record on the relay too). Biedermann is good, real good. Phelps probably does need to get some perspective, not lose his amazing competitive edge, but be able to appreciate and respect his competitors more. Hey, I don't like it that when Tiger Woods hits bad shots he throws his clubs (admittedly, golf is a game designed for mental breakdowns...but if you golf for a living you should be ready for it). When I see that I wonder why he never learned the etiquette of golf, and when I see Phelps miss the sporting opportunity to congratulate his opponent after an event I think he is less for that. They even congratulate each other on MMA after a match. Cavic was a wonderful foil for Phelps; he helped him reach a greatness maybe even he didn't know he had.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 13:52:13 GMT

It wasn't captured on TV but Phelps did shake Biedermann's hand as they exited the pool. Thank you for letting us know.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Muppet — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 12:36:08 GMT

They even congratulate each other on MMA after a match. Despite kicking and beating the crap out of each other, fighters of all kinds (wrestling, tae kwon do, karate, boxing, etc...) have a great deal of RESPECT for each other. You almost always see some form of acknowledgement before and after a fight. Phelps was born with talent and a good body - but respect is something that needs to be taught. One would think that his mother, a school principal, would know a bit about that, but her reaction to Biedermann's thumping of her son in the 200 free was one of disgust and disdain. Yes, this guy just beat her baby, but really...

RE: Phelps is going down ....

DPC — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:02:10 GMT

One would think that his mother, a school principal, would know a bit about that, but her reaction to Biedermann's thumping of her son in the 200 free was one of disgust and disdain Do we know exactly what she was reacting to and why?? Could she have been dissapointed that he lost the race - soundly - and that his time away, the suspension, and lack of longer term focused training was the reason he did poorly (by comparison) - could she have been more dissapointed in her son? I don't recall an interview with her where she took any shots at Biederman. His sisters reaction, well that's another thing. Biederman was extremely gracious and Phelps was not after the 200 free. But Cavic did a lot more than needle him. And a lot of people were ready to bury Phelps after the 200 free - the 200 fly notwithstanding. As for hating him, there are many who are not Phelps fans for a variety of reasons and while respecting his abilities, may be tired of his winning most of the time - any one who dominates a sport experiences that (Tiger, Federer, the Williams sisters). Is he arrogant vs confident? - as Larry Bird said "it ain't bragging if you can back it up". And I have yet to see Phelps shoot his mouth off before any meet - and if he believes in his own mind that he's the best and works to keep that edge - isn't that one of the first rules of dominating your sport/job?? Personally, I want Lochte and Piersol to rule the backstroke and Lochte to vie for the IM records. Even if just for variety and national pride and competetion. Is any athlete a poster child for excellent behavior 100% of the time – NO. If you thought Phelps showed poor sportsmanship at the end of the race – fair criticism – I think referring to him as a donkey and apelike and a *** is a bit extreme - would you have referred to Muhammad Ali in the same manner after what he did and said about the second fight with Liston? I don't recall that ending with a lot of love.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 10:08:10 GMT

It wasn't captured on TV but Phelps did shake Biedermann's hand as they exited the pool.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:54:01 GMT

Is Phelps the best sport in the pool? No. Was Cavic gracious in defeat? Sure. But given the choice between an athlete who keeps quiet until the results are in, then reacts to the results, vs. one who yammers about what the results are going to be, then is forced into diminutive smiles after the results show otherwise, I'll take the former. See I have to disagree here. I think athletes talking some smack before the meet is in a lot of times in good fun. I didn't see Cavic getting really personal (and I think he has an argument about touching first but that's neither here nor there and shouldn't have been mentioned) I dont' like it when smack becomes so and so is no good at this. But Cavic's smack is all in good fun... I think it's way worse when someone cannot be gracious in defeat or winning... Although I didnt' mind the tug on the shirt that much. However, not shaking Biedermann's hand was tactless. Not shaking Biedermann's hand is way worse than anything Cavic ever said about Phelps.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:47:58 GMT

Wrestling is an interesting phenomenon: The entire popularity of the sport is based on heroes and villains that have been completely manufactured and is set against a backdrop of unauthentic athletic competition. So I'll throw this out there: Does Mike Cavic really think that he beat Phelps in Beijing? Or was he just trying to lay the ground work for a one on one dual with Phelps?

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:32:38 GMT

Anyone who says they're a bigger fan of Cavic than of Phelps based on sportsmanship obviously didn't hear him running his mouth before the race. It's one thing when Cavic says, "I can beat the guy," another entirely when he said "I could be in court right now." Unless he gets credit for only mentioning that he has the option to file a lawsuit disputing the Beijing results and not actually suing. What a sport. Phelps was prodded, primed and provoked by the media to respond to Cavic's talk, and all he ever said was "no comment," or "I'll do my talking in the pool." Which he did, and now gets vilified for celebrating a barrier-breaking world record victory about which most vocalized doubt. Is Phelps the best sport in the pool? No. Was Cavic gracious in defeat? Sure. But given the choice between an athlete who keeps quiet until the results are in, then reacts to the results, vs. one who yammers about what the results are going to be, then is forced into diminutive smiles after the results show otherwise, I'll take the former.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 05:30:33 GMT

First of all I don't care in the least about Phelps' mother. I am sick of seeing her on TV. She will be the most biased observer in the stadium. I don't care what she does for a living, what she cooked for Phelps when he was kid, nor how many early mornings she got up to drive him to the pool. Michael surely appreciates all of that. I have no problem with Phelps' reaction after the race. Elite athletes are often fueled by emotion. Phelps was surrounded by doubters before that race - including me. But he swam an astounding race and showed the world once again he is a dazzling swimmer. But I liked Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe too. I don't like showboats or ridiculously selfish athletes like T.O.. But I have no problem with Phelps letting loose with some emotion and bravado. Phelps isn't as mature as we Masters swimmers. That's OK with me.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

mctrusty — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 03:07:25 GMT

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:51:16 GMT

Phelps carried on a bit, but he was pretty pumped. My theory: it is all part of his transformation into a sprinter. They wear their hearts on their sleeves and act a little crazy. It is just personal preference, but I've always liked the "act like you've been there" types rather than the Track & Field sprinters. Where even the silver and bronze modelists strut around as if they've just invented the cure for cancer. I also didn't mind Cavic's pre-race comments. They seemed honest (ie, reflecting what he thought) rather than the usual pre-race/game platitudes. It also made for better entertainment.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:19:21 GMT

So Cavic gets the sportsmanship credit over Phelps for shaking his hand in the water vs. a few minutes later? What about the cockamamie conspiracy theory about how the timing system didn't work for one heat out of the thousands at the Olympics? We're not talking about Conspiracies or last year's race (THEY may well be, but we are not). Yes, we're talking about sportsmanship in the pool (competitors in the same water.......) or on the court (Tennis.......net.......handshake.......then trophy presentation then interviews). I want to see the natural and spontaneous sportsmanship of the athlete, not what their P.R. person tells them to say at the ceremony or interviews. I guess somebody missed the part where we try to teach our kids (and ourselves) some manners in that, after the race, you shake the hands of the two swimmers on either side of you (or to only one side, if one has sandbagged well) regardless of the result....... Somewhere else someone said that now the Phelps haters are coming out of the woodwork, or some such. Where does my hatred of Phelps manifest itself? I don't hate the guy at all. I admire the pure athlete in him.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 09:07:20 GMT

So I finally watched the 100 Fly yesterday. I had been looking forward to it, and ignoring this forum so I wouldn't accidentally learn the result. Great race. Unbelievable that Phelps could pull that off, especially right after he collided into someone in the warmup pool and broke his goggles. I enjoyed the rivalry and build-up to the race, with Cavic trash talking and whining about his loss in Beijing. I was relishing the prospect of watching Phelps beat him, even though I thought the chances of that were slim. But now, having seen the race and the way both swimmers handled themselves afterwards, I have an observation... Phelps is a ***. He's a sore loser and a graceless winner. His apelike antics in the pool were an embarrassment. Thumping his chest, sitting on the lane line and shoving his ass in Cavic's lane, refusing to look at Cavic and acknowledge him when Cavic congratulated him. Very disappointing. After that race I am now more of a Cavic fan than a Phelps fan, not that I was ever really a Phelps fan to begin with. Phelps is sort of like a donkey with a preternatural talent for playing Beethoven. It can play the notes with amazing skill, but it still brays like a donkey and sh*ts everywhere. You have to marvel at the phenomenon, but it's hard to admire the donkey. I also watched the 200 free where Phelps got his ass handed to him by Biederman, who destroyed him in every aspect of that race.. start, turns, final kick, etc. Phelp's mommy shaking her head with crossed arms was a sad spectacle. I seriously doubt that he lost because of the suit. Even if that was all, it would be utter hypocrisy to whine about it, since the US had the Lazer in '08 and the Germans had to wear crappy Adidas suits.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:43:04 GMT

:bow: I'll admit it...I'm just in awe of Phelps...How did he do that? He just had nothing going for him and somehow he pulled that out. I've not seen many like him in my lifetime and guess what....He's not done yet.

RE: Phelps is going down ....

Former Member — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 12:49:41 GMT

Say what you will about Cavic, but it was the one race in Rome where people talked about the swimmers and not (for the most part) the suits. It really is too bad that they probably won't meet both rested in 2010 because there's a nice rivalry here that has sport/entertainment interest outside the usual swimming fans.