From Swimnews

RE: From Swimnews

orca1946 — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:51:19 GMT

I agree with above. A good baseline to think about.:applaud:

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:00:45 GMT

How about FINA Masters rules of: 1) Any suit on the current FINA approved list. 2) Any FINA approved suit as of Jan 1, 2009. This would include B70 Nero Comp. The suit manufacturers would want stay in synch with the FINA ‘elite’ approval list and suits like B70 Nero will quickly die out to be replaced by a currently approved model. I doubt if B70 would continue to produce a Nero for Masters only (especially when the approved Speedo’s are faster). 3) One year’s notice for removal of approval of any suit (‘Once on the list, always on the list’ would be better – but this would force FINA to think for a change) We would then be aligned with FINA but those who bought a FINA approved suit won't then be burnt by the retraction of approval.

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:46:57 GMT

Why would anyone want to race in a suit that FINA has not deemed legal? Why would anyone want to take PEDs for swimming in a masters meet?

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:29:20 GMT

I found many of the above comments and opinions interesting; however, my observation is that many/all assume that FINA is an organization that knows what the hell it's doing. It seems to me that the suit approval/non-approval issue reveals the opposite. Subjective criteria such as "may trap air" used to eliminate suits that appear to be as good or better than FINA sponsor Speedo's LZR, at a lower price and with much greater durability. That stinks to high heaven. The neoprene suits seem to float you higher, which may or may not be good for swimming. They may trap air, which almost certainly isn't good for swimming. They clearly reduce drag, which is good for swimming. From my observations, they do not "support the core" nearly to extent the LZR does. Which of these artificial enhancements - flotation, air trapping, drag reduction, core support - is OK, and which is not? Craig Lord is an idiot. Boycott swimnews! :bitching:

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:18:25 GMT

I agree that we should abide by FINA rules, when they have gotten over their 'deer in the headlights' mentality toward the current situation and develop a reasonable set of scientific criteria that anyone can understand. But, my reading of the SwimNews article indicates that FINA is willing to let master's swimmers develop their own set of standards for suits. If this is correct, and this is indeed what FINA wants, wouldn't we be following FINA rules by developing our own set of standards? Or do we mean that FINA should apply the same standards to masters as to elites? Then, there is another way to handle the problem: anyone who wants to abide strictly by the FINA elite standards may join USA Swimming and not USMS. Problem solved and we over the hill, toothless old people may just continue to thrash about as we wish.

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:59:40 GMT

But, Jim, we already do not test for drugs. Don't you think that the elite swimmers would be aware of that? Wouldn't that cheapen master's records in their eyes? We who would believe that our ranks are 'clean' may also fall victim to letters of financial gain from oversees. By the way, it's Abrahams, not Abrams... I don't know, Allen, your keg looked pretty well contained to me at Fresno.

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:27:33 GMT

as inflamatory as the article is. if masters adopt a wear anything you want policy; mr lord is right. This is true in principle. However, we already have no drug testing (as was mentioned in the SwimNews article) and rely on master's swimmers to keep themselves under control. I cannot imagine the cost of master's swimming if we were to require drug testing. I have witnessed FINA drug control randomly showing up at practices of the German National Team in Flagstaff and tried to generalize that to every master's practice in every little pool in all the world. Costly indeed! Nor can I imagine the feasibility of having a ready room to check the legality of all suits worn at master's meets. How many meets would we have in that case? Not many, I think. We'll just have to hope for the best if we have the 'wear anything you want' rule. And for those of us with old age six packs it's fine not to wear any body covering. My six packs have now multiplied into 24 packs & I need a girdle to keep them in place.

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:12:59 GMT

as inflamatory as the article is. if masters adopt a wear anything you want policy; mr lord is right.

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:08:37 GMT

LOL! Time to Choose Your Weapon: Elite or Master I Read as: Time to Choose Your Weapon: Elite or SUCK Right. After all, what good are old people anyhow? They are just gonna die...

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:01:46 GMT

Craig Lord: "get rid of your stuff with the oldies" Erm, as we say where I grew up: "Up yours Gordon!"

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:59:15 GMT

I'm starting to get the feeling that SwimNews has figured out how to turn crazy talk into traffic. This article smells like "flame bait" to me. He's trying to start an argument where everyone has to go look at his article in order to have an opinion. By pushing all of our buttons he's attempting to shake up the whole online masters community to boost his numbers. On the connection to FINA and Masters, I don't think FINA said yeah do whatever you want... I think USMS said call us when you make an actual decision. He's just trying to make it more exciting and incendiary.

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:56:46 GMT

LOL! Time to Choose Your Weapon: Elite or Master I Read as: Time to Choose Your Weapon: Elite or SUCK

RE: From Swimnews

Former Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:33:59 GMT

Probably because Craig Lord has never had any fun himself, in the pool or out!

RE: From Swimnews

knelson — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:00:46 GMT

And by the by, the FINA bylaws and rulebook used to be on the fina website but now seem to be gone, anyone know if they are still on the web somewhere? Click on Directory in the lefthand side list and a link will drop down for "Rules and Regulations."

RE: From Swimnews

Michael Martin — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:51:56 GMT

RE: From Swimnews

jim thornton — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:10:34 GMT

I think one of the reasons that masters doesn't test for drugs is that some swimmers (older males) are on hormone replacement therapy for medical reasons. Granted, Androgrel massaged into the shoulder shouldn't elevate your testosterone levels the way doping with heavy duty anabolic steroids do, but my understanding is that some substances banned for Olympic competition can become medical necessities (well, maybe not necessities exactly, but enhancements) with advancing age. Maybe because there is virtually no financial incentive, and not a whole lot of glory incentive either, I find it hard to imagine there is rampant doping going on in our ranks. If there is, I say: people this driven to win are suffering enough with OCD. They are already getting punished by their own brains. Suits, on the other hand, are a different matter. A decade or two ago, the tennis industry introduced these oversized tennis balls that were easier to see, a bit slower on the courts, and easier to hit. The idea was that it might behoove the game for older players. The concept, as far as I can see, never caught on. The reason: It's NOT tennis anymore! It's a big slow ball batting sport with racquets. I loved the B70, but I want masters swimming to remain swimming. I don't want it to become a big body boating for old people sealed into neoprene kayaks sport. That, to me, is NOT swimming anymore!

RE: From Swimnews

Kevin in MD — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:02:35 GMT

As much of a pain everyone seems to think Mr. Lord is, I agree with his general thesis. We should abide by Fina rules regarding technical suits. If we allow B70 outlawed swim suits, what rule exactly stops me from wearing a wetsuit at the next competition? I also agree with Mr. Lord that FINA seems to be making it up as they go along. They don't seem to know their own bylaws and rulebook. And by the by, the FINA bylaws and rulebook used to be on the fina website but now seem to be gone, anyone know if they are still on the web somewhere?

RE: From Swimnews

Allen Stark — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:55:12 GMT

My 6 pack has become a keg.

RE: From Swimnews

jim thornton — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:48:22 GMT

I skimmed through the article, and my first thought was this: if masters allows suits that FINA does not, it will marginalize masters. Rightly or wrongly, it will make any times seem suspect. It will be the equivalent of allowing the Sr. Golf Tour players use clubs that aren't legal for the regular tour. To me, one of the best aspects of competing in masters swimming is that there is a seemless shift from 6 and unders to 80 and overs--a sense that in the bell shaped curve of life time performance, we may peak at a certain age, but the sport itself is a constant. I don't know. I guess I'd rather we abide by FINA standards even if it means surrendering some of the easy speed that the best technological suits can offer. I'd rather swimming stay one sport and not bifurcate into a normal and "handicapped" division. When Rich Abrams can break 50 in the 100 freestyle at age 65, that means something to every swimmer, regardless of age. But if younger swimmers are thinking he's done it via rules that don't apply to them, it cheapens his considerable glory. I say: keep it one sport.

RE: From Swimnews

pwolf66 — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:44:54 GMT

He is such an ass. Did you see his comment about serious swimmers doing it for "vanity" reasons. Is he nuts? This obviously isn't official. But perhaps it indicates that FINA is inclined to say it's new "rules do not apply to masters" on June 19? But then FINA is pretty much admitting this is an 'economic' issue not a performance enhancing one in direct contrast to what they have been harping on up to this point.

RE: From Swimnews

The Fortress — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:41:18 GMT

www.swimnews.com/.../6918 If masters swimming is for fun,spirit, health, some competitive aspects, why does lord care what suits masters swimmers wear? He is such an ass. Did you see his comment about serious swimmers doing it for "vanity" reasons. Is he nuts? Why is he so bitter? This obviously isn't official. But perhaps it indicates that FINA is inclined to say it's new "rules do not apply to masters" on June 19?

RE: From Swimnews

knelson — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:25:53 GMT

No need to preclude technological development. But we've got plenty of tech development in the sport outside the realm of suits. Faster pools, better training, better understanding of nutrition, etc. Maybe suits should be the one, more or less, static thing, much like wood bats in Major League Baseball.

RE: From Swimnews

The Fortress — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:03:22 GMT

Leslie, Leslie! Obviously you have never participated in the new sport of Xtreme Antiquing. If you had, you wouldn't be so dismissive of the dangers faced by our nation's top Xtreme 'tiquers as they pinch and eye-gouge each other en route to Louis Catorze (spelling?) shiferobes (spelling again?) Now there's a sport where you need a suit. And goggles. They would be properly clad in antique aquablades then! We can keep the suits that make our sport sexy, fast, fun and more high profile. FINA is annoyed with the number of WRs, but it will eventually even out again if they put proper standards in place. http://suitwars.com/?p=81

RE: From Swimnews

jim thornton — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 05:51:13 GMT

This is sport, not antiquing. Leslie, Leslie! Obviously you have never participated in the new sport of Xtreme Antiquing. If you had, you wouldn't be so dismissive of the dangers faced by our nation's top Xtreme 'tiquers as they pinch and eye-gouge each other en route to Louis Catorze (spelling?) shiferobes (spelling again?) Now there's a sport where you need a suit. And goggles.

RE: From Swimnews

The Fortress — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:52:00 GMT

If FINA had acted forcefully to deny the Aquablade, the first domino wouldn't have tumbled. One could argue they SHOULD have acted then, but on what grounds? At the time, a decision to ban the Aquablade did not seem intuitively obvious. Was there much controversy back then? Did anyone even suggest that FINA should ban the Aquablade? Though it wasn't obvious (to me, at least) at the time, this was the first trickle of toothpaste exiting the tube--basically allowing suit design to have a significant impact on swimming speed. Everything since then have been improvements on this initial technology. Everything since then has been enabled by FINA's decision not to decide to keep the genie in the bottle. With the Aquablade, the nuclear arms race of suits began! Put the lid back on Pandora's Box before swimming joins Nascar, yachting, and Las Vegas Bunny Hunts as recreational activities available only to the super rich! To sum up: toothpaste out genie out Pandora's Box open Bunny Hunts in Las Vegas our only viable option? Where's the chick option? I don't care about bunnies in Vegas, so I guess I'll keep my suit. :) I don't find this argument persuasive. This is sport, not antiquing. No need to preclude technological development. If it is somehow desirable to cause such development to be excruciatingly incremental, FINA should have taken a more calculated, science based approach instead of approving everything in sight right away. I don't see why we should have to go back to the dinosaur age and use fossilized swimsuits in perpetuity.