Unrewarded Training

RE: Unrewarded Training

Mookie — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:45:07 GMT

Infinitely more knowledgeable swimmers have given you superb answers, so I'll only add some 47 y/o guy stuff. Our stories are the same: same age, same frustration at getting slower. 1. It's all about fitness and health. Hold onto that perspective tightly. BUT, one way to keep the excersise interesting and enjoyable and repeatable is to see improvement. To work hard and see regression in your times is terribly discouraging. I hear you. Been there, and it really sucks. So, you need to: 2. Build a Better Boat. There is no better advice for a 47 y/o who has been training hard enough. You've maximized your returns from effort. The results from switching from flailing through 'survival' practices, to instead being a better swimmer, were huge for me. And more fun. Swim On.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:46:52 GMT

The first thing I thought when I read the last paragraph of your post was "overtraining". One of the first signs of overtraining is declining times despite increased training. To check whether this is the case, I would start logging your heart rate. If after training your heart rate declines on a course run at the same distance & same speed, then you are still improving. However, if your HR increases swimming same course & same time then you've gone past your limit. Ideally you should train right before your limit, so this might be a good opportunity to identify it. Usually people set personal bests during their taper phase, and it sounds like you are not tapering. I would start by setting some long term goals (defeat teenage times) and then some short term goals (ideally, pick a meet in the future and aim for a realistic time that you think is likely and will make you happy to beat). Then taper properly for your meet. You might not get it on the first try, tapering is an individual science, so you have to keep track of what occurred and adjust things in the future. Usually a taper follows a period of intensive build up (like what you are doing now) where times do not improve noticeably. Then to taper you lessen the yardage, increase your rest, and increase your intensity. You should do a moderate warmup, then things at race pace, near race pace, or above. If you are aiming for the 200 and 400 I would NOT do a full race in practice. It will be better mental preparation to do 150 or 300 above race pace. Make sure you also do some shorter trials at race pace so you have it internalized, and do some full length trials while consciously holding back just a little. (A big part of tapering is preparing your mind to give that maximum effort, to convince it that it can, and to prepare it to give that effort despite the pain.) If you can compete once or twice during the lead-up to your short-term-goal meet then that would be perfect to assist your taper. Racing a personal best is as much mental preparation as physical, and that seems to be what you are lacking most. If you train your brain properly you are sure to beat your relatively inexperienced teenage self.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:13:40 GMT

I liked to do my 25s in endless relays teams, every 25 was contested and as fast as you could swim a 25. If you slacked off and did not swim fast enough the others on your team would get after you. This way you practiced diving streamline and and the touch at the end of your 25. The more people on your team the longer the rest period.

RE: Unrewarded Training

funkyfish — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:44:07 GMT

You should experiment with some "real" speed work as well like 25 yard sprints and less. Why? Doing a 1:10-1:12 for a 100 free is much easier if you can do a :15 or better for a 25. Doing 25s for time made/makes sense for me as well. If you think about superfast swimmers who go :46-:44 in a 100yd free, divide those times up into 4 length intervals (:11-:11.5 per 25), then you have some idea of what you'd need to do to swim a faster 100. Once your speed is good for a 25, then you start adding to that. I'm guessing a lot of the folks who swim below :48 for a 100yd free can swim 25s at and below :11). :)

RE: Unrewarded Training

pwolf66 — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:31:43 GMT

You should experiment with some "real" speed work as well like 25 yard sprints and less. Why? Doing a 1:10-1:12 for a 100 free is much easier if you can do a :15 or better for a 25. :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: That is one of the most poorly understood(?), accepted(?), trained(?) aspect of swimming. 25 yard speed is critical as every swim consists of a series of 25s. So, assuming good over all conditioning, the faster you can swim a 25, the faster you can swim a 50,100,200,500, etc... I struggle with this with my kids that I coach. When we do 25 sprints, they just cruise and then wonder why they're not getting faster for 50s and 100s. 25 Speed is such a HUGE building block for faster swimming.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 07:38:00 GMT

Question: I note you do six sessions a week in the dojo. How long is each session? My dojo is a fifteen minute drive from home, so every hour session actually represents two hours by the time you factor in travel and change time. My training pool and my dojo are less than a mile apart; but I have tried training swimming and karate back to back: absolutely mind numbingly exhausting and guaranteed to lead to injuries. Ah, I'm actually only breaking a sweat in the dojo twice a week. I've got a heavy bag at home and a fitness area at work that I use for the other 4 sessions. I do combine karate and swimming on the same day twice a week. BUT on those days I either hit the heavy bag by myself OR just do drills with others - no sparring. Also, I swim 1k. That's it. No more. It takes about 25 minutes and I use swimming as a means to an end - cardio training easier on the body than running. I'm not looking to excel as a swimmer much more than is necessary to keep my weight down and give me enough endurance so exhaustion isn't a problem when doing karate. Mark

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:22:15 GMT

To add a little more... Slowly add to your workload. Your doing so much right now that your blocking yourself in. Take the long term approach. Think about where you want to be in two years. What are you going to be able to add/change along the way to overload the system in a new way? You need a long term plan...IMHO. Cut back now and then rebuild over the course of a few seasons/years. Here's my last simple piece of advice...If you want to swim faster, then you will actually have to swim faster. Think about this in workout.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:29:08 GMT

plenty of advice has been offered about keeping things in perspective...good advice. However, I think its great to go get what you are after. I don't think age should hold you back from setting a lofty goal and then working towards it consistently for a period of time. Keep it up and you'll hit your goal times. I guarantee it. First of all, I'm relatively young around here at 33 and I have some big goals that I'm working towards...patiently and consistently. What I notice about people in masters who come back after a long lay off is they try to train the way they did when they were "good". This is a mistake. A lot has changed since you were younger in regards to training, strength, and conditioning. I don't know exactly what you're doing but here's what I currently think works. 1. Dryland...do not do the old style weight lifting all the time...where you pick a muscle group and then kill it during your training session. It breaks you down so bad that you can't swim. Instead try lifting two times per week for one hour and hit the entire body both times. Do multi-joint compound exercises. Better yet meet with a personal trainer one time every few months to write and adjust your program that is specific to swimming goals. 2. Do not underestimate the amount of rest you need. Wear a fast suit or shave. Taper for three weeks as a starting point. 3. Train all the energy systems in the pool. A lot of masters swimmers think that a lot of aerobic work on short rest intervals is what is going to get them faster. Wrong! Some of that is great. But a steady diet of that forces you to always swim in survival, slightly uncomfortable mode. Instead increase the rest and swim faster at times and make things really uncomfortable. Basic Endurance Sets Anaerobic Threshold Sets VO2MAX Sets Power/Neural Sets Lactate Sets 4. Periodize your training plan. General endurance/Threshold phase, then VO2Max phase, then Lactate Phase, then taper. This is just an example. "Swimming Fastest" is a good read to learn about some of these general concepts.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:21:43 GMT

One last thing... get the book Swimming Fastest by Ernest Maglischo. It is like having the repair manual for your car. It unmasks a lot of the mystery around swimming. I lied. One more thing... when we talk about speed work, there are several different energy systems which are involved. Make sure to investigate each of them. As you were mentioning working on your speed by doing 100's, I started to wince. My fear is that you will still be working one of your aerobic energy zones. You should experiment with some "real" speed work as well like 25 yard sprints and less. Why? Doing a 1:10-1:12 for a 100 free is much easier if you can do a :15 or better for a 25.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:09:46 GMT

Hi. Its Juszczec from from the Karate Underground. I think you are being waaaay too hard on yourself. First of all, you're what, 47? You're 47 and doing everything you said in the list: physically, career-wise and with your family. Dude, I've got relatives just a little past 47 (I'm 42) who can't get down on the floor. So what that teenagers are faster than you? So what that some guy 8 years younger is faster than you. For every person that can outperform you in the pool, I can pull out 10 that can't come close to what you are doing. Now that we've got that in perspective, someone suggested you might be overtraining and I've gotta agree: weights 3-4x a week karate 3x a week swimming 5x a week (90 min per session) That's alot. This is me: swimming 3x a week (1k, half hour) weights 2x a week karate 6x a week (I vary these sessions from easy to exhausting) I think mine is ambitious, but its a walk in the park compared to yours. Mark Mark: pleasure to meet you here too. Same old issues too: the focussed and overwhelming effort to take every pleasurable hobby I have and turn it into hard, grinding work. Question: I note you do six sessions a week in the dojo. How long is each session? My dojo is a fifteen minute drive from home, so every hour session actually represents two hours by the time you factor in travel and change time. My training pool and my dojo are less than a mile apart; but I have tried training swimming and karate back to back: absolutely mind numbingly exhausting and guaranteed to lead to injuries. To everyone else: your advise is absolutely great and I am going to start implementing some of it immediately. Summer slow down is coming fast here: the indoor Olympic pool is closing for bi-annual maintenance and the only worthwhile outdoor pool in town will only be available to me for 1 hour at lunch time for most of July and August. I will be forced to cut my sessions back somewhat. I am definetly going to check out many of the resources mentioned here immediately. Especially the kicking drills: I am pretty sure my lack of legs is the major issue at least with my backstroke. I might even break down and see a doctor. Among my many phobias is fear of doctors, which is pretty funny seeing as how I am a veterinarian.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:08:23 GMT

Not to seem flip, but gaze at your subject heading for a moment. Pretend that your mobility had been compromised by an accident, or some other misfortune. Imagine that you were undergoing treatment for a nasty illness. Try to get a momentary glimpse of how blessed you'd feel to glide through the water under your own power. If your training is truly unrewarded, it seems to me that you might be calculating reward in a strange currency. Be thankful. Good advice. It is difficult not getting caught up in comparing our 40+ selves with our 20+ selves, but in many ways age is like an accident. Just as you might lose flexibility and strength following an accident, so too one can lose these things with age. This is not to say that you shouldn't try to improve, however. First, I would recommend that you read some of Ande's posts in Swimming Faster Faster. One that comes to my mind when I read you post is Tip 159: Build a Better Boat. Second, 2:20 in the 200 requires some speed. I would argue that a good 400 also requires some speed. I didn't read much information about you working on your speed. Aerobic work is fine, but alone it will not make you a fast swimmer. Third, have you videotaped you swimming? This is related to the "Build a Better Boat" concept. Improving technique can have a much more dramatic effect on your swimming speed than conditioning. Fourth, are you resting enough for meets? Several have suggested this, but really. What have your in-season times been like compared with your rested times? If you are not showing significant improvements when resting, then I would argue that there is something wrong with the way you are resting.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:41:54 GMT

3.Kicking: kick (without flippers. How come I now get absolutely no propulsion from my feet? ankle/ foot flexibility, technique, conditioning, attitude Does a person actually lose that much ankle flexibility as they age? probably humanpunchingbag, I was a slow kicker as a kid and was still a slow kicker until a few months ago. I started working on my kick regularly at the beginning of the year, and started stretching my ankles every night, first just sitting on my ankles leaning forward (lookup child's pose yoga), then sitting upright, then sitting back, then sitting back with my kneed elevated balancing on the front of my toes. Now I sit upright on my ankles, but my toes are suspended on a foam roller and my knees are on the floor. If my ankles ever get to the floor from this position, I am done :) I spend 2 minutes every day stretching my ankles. Since I started stretching the ankles about the time I started working my kick, I don't know how much difference one made independently, but combined, they made a huge difference. My wife could lap me on a 200 kick, and now I can finish with her. She is a decent kicker. So your kick is still very improvable as is your ankle flexibility. I too think you suffer from over training. Maybe you need to consider introducing meditation, yoga and other active relaxation activities during your taper. That way you are "doing" something, but you are letting your body repair and refuel. Obviously you need to pick activities that are more about relaxation then about activity.

RE: Unrewarded Training

isobel — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:40:08 GMT

There are a lot of fast swimmers out there, senor (that's my Spanish slipping in). All the way into their 60s and beyond. So keep training for yourself, be happy you are getting in shape, and don't compare yourself to others. Make sure training is fun so you can stick with it. It sounds like you might be doing too much physical stuff (but I'm a couch potato relative to most posters on this board). You could be getting tired and that's why you aren't seeing the improvements you want. You might have to dedicate yourself to swimming as your primary sport, and focus all your training around it, possibly sacrificing the karate. And that is my late-night :2cents:.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:10:30 GMT

Chill out. It is time to enjoy swimming. Why does anyone have to prove how great they are? I swim for pleasure.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:33:21 GMT

RE: Unrewarded Training

The Fortress — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:09:20 GMT

I am a 47 year old man who came back to swimming as a sport five years ago after a twenty year hiatus from the pool. I am a 47 year old woman who came back to swimming about 4 years ago after a 24 year break! Unlike you, I'm a sprinter, though we have the 100 back in common (my last one in SCM was 1:10). I'm swimming better than I thought I would at this age. But I train unconventionally -- very little short rest interval training (blech!) and aerobic work, lots of speed and race pace work, lots of kicking. Perhaps a key weapon was for me to learn to SDK effectively. I also use a shorter training cycle than many and try not to get into an extended fatigue trough. I rest for all meets, though sometimes just a few days. I've tried continuing with another sport I love, running, but I just can't do it if I want to compete in swimming. It wears me down too much. So I'd guess, as others have noted, that you are simply doing too much with competitive karate added to the mix. Cut back and rest more if you want to improve in swimming. (As I read recently, ask yourself, are you training to train or training to race?) If you want to continue in both sports, you need to adjust your swimming expectations. Do what makes you happy.

RE: Unrewarded Training

DPC — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:29:41 GMT

Sounds a little familiar - I got back in the water a year ago after 25 years out and we are the same age. At first after about a month of workouts, I was dismayed with how slow I was. But you can't compare your 45+ year old self to your 20+ year old self, and then not against some one a decade younger - and yet you are probably faster than someone who is 25 or 30 at the same time. Maybe you are training too hard or too often like Ranic and PW state. Your workouts are pretty intense and maybe if you seim 5 X week, you back off on a couple of them to give yourself more recovery time. The goals you have set should be yours and not against some teenager - pull back a bit, do some all kick workouts to give your upper body a rest, read Ande's tips. Then one day soon you'll jump in and smoke one of those teenagers in a set of 200s or something like that, and your 400 time will take a nice drop. You've done a lot of hard work the results will come. Good luck.

RE: Unrewarded Training

ande — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:29:08 GMT

Great advice & Wow Mike, what an honor! Thanks for mentioning and linking swim faster faster. Build a Better Boat kinda sums it all up, though for you it should be: Build a Better Boat (and submarine) Swim Faster Faster! Ande Good advice. It is difficult not getting caught up in comparing our 40+ selves with our 20+ selves, but in many ways age is like an accident. Just as you might lose flexibility and strength following an accident, so too one can lose these things with age. This is not to say that you shouldn't try to improve, however. First, I would recommend that you read some of Ande's posts in Swimming Faster Faster. One that comes to my mind when I read you post is Tip 159: Build a Better Boat. Second, 2:20 in the 200 requires some speed. I would argue that a good 400 also requires some speed. I didn't read much information about you working on your speed. Aerobic work is fine, but alone it will not make you a fast swimmer. Third, have you videotaped you swimming? This is related to the "Build a Better Boat" concept. Improving technique can have a much more dramatic effect on your swimming speed than conditioning. Fourth, are you resting enough for meets? Several have suggested this, but really. What have your in-season times been like compared with your rested times? If you are not showing significant improvements when resting, then I would argue that there is something wrong with the way you are resting.

RE: Unrewarded Training

ande — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:22:09 GMT

Hey Human, You're frustrated. You have goals you haven't reached. You feel like you've hit a wall. Everyone can improve. It's just a matter of determination, proper training, & time. Train through it. Your goals are 400 fr 4:59.99 or better 200 fr 2:19.99 or better 100 bk 1:09.99 or better Use your frustration to train smarter, more often, faster, & more intensely. Here's a thread that's similar to yours. Last 150 of my 500 falls off Here's my response to him Here's his results looks like you're also doing a some Comparing and Desparing here's what I wrote about that Tip 80 Comparing and Desparing As far as quick improvement ideas. What suit did you wear in the meet? Tip 201 Which Suit Suits you? More info On Racing Suits How tall are you? How much do you weigh? Tip 08 Lug Less Lard How did you split your swims? How's your SDK? How fast is your flutter kick? I know you can swim faster faster, answer these questions and keep working on improving. Ande read and apply ideas from: Swim Faster Faster INDEX I hope this post rings true with many of the swimmers out there, and I hope one of you has a solution for this issue. Just as an introduction: I am a 47 year old man who came back to swimming as a sport five years ago after a twenty year hiatus from the pool. At one time, in my late teens and early twenties I was pretty decent swimmer: placed in the top twelve at Canadian Nationals in both backstroke events, but realistically that was about as far as I was going to go. I was never going to be an Olympic contender and I was Ok with that. I left swimming to get a life and here I am nearly thirty years later with a wife, daughter, carreer and all the debt that comes with those responsibilities. My mid-life diversion is now swimming, or more specifically, trying to regain some of my youth from the wreckage that mid-life seems to leave us. I am now training as well as I ever did really. I seem to go from one work-out to the next with brief rest stops in-between for my carreer and my family. I do dedicated resistance training three to four times each week in my private weight lifting gym in my basement (actually a pretty nice set up, and this is coming from a man who dabbled in body-building for ten years). I teach and train karate a minimum of three times a week right now (just competed, for the hell of it, in the ITKF Nationals last weekend). I do five ninety minute pool sessions each week, logging between twenty to twenty five thousand meters per week. Today was a typical session: Warm-up 5 X 100 on 1:40 concentrating on my stroke. Descended down to 1:20 on the final 100. Pull: 5 X 200 on 2:45, maintaining 2:35 or faster for each rep. No sweat to complete. Kick: 6 X 100 Swim: 16 X25 on 25 pacing to get at least 7 seconds rest 8X 50 on 45 pacing to stay below 37 seconds per 50 Kick: 6 x 100 Swim: 5 x 100 on 1:30 maintaining at 1:15 to 1:16 on each rep. Pull: 8X100 Backstroke on 1:40 half with PB, half without. (trying to get my legs more involved. The point of all this is that, despite training at pace times that should deliver my fairly moderate goals of breaking a 5 minute 400 and a 2:20 for the 200 and maybe pulling my 100 back under 1:10, I am just not getting anywhere near that. In fact, I am getting slower each time I race. Lately my 400 time has gone from 5:02 (felt freaking great) to 5:04 (racing teen agers; I thought I was going to throw up) to 5:05 (felt easy and strong). I am pretty sure, given the right day and rested properly, I could go sub 4:50, which I could really be proud of. Meanwhile my training has done nothing but intensify. More speed sets, more short interval sets, more stroke correction, more meters. I have lost ten pounds this year and am now UNDER my teen-age racing weight. This is from being a 250 lb blob just over ten years ago. The failure to succeed in what, by any measure, are very moderate goals is just spirit crushing. This last weekend I had the great indignity of racing a 39 year old who managed to clock a 1:57:06 on the 200 free. I nick-named him "Bubbles" because, throughout the race that is all I got to see of him. He turned around an hour later and logged a 58:10 on a 100 back. He was disappointed because his best time in sub 57. Spririt crushing. Any suggestions?

RE: Unrewarded Training

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:10:14 GMT

Enjoyed your first post. Could have been my story exactly...but I started back at 40 years old...a little over 6 years ago. At the end of the day, it's hard not to be competitive. We all have this inherent quality by nature. (Swimmers that is.) But with age we are often humbled by not reaching our high expectations within a certain time frame. Don't get frustrated. Having a new perspective is key. It looks as if you discovered it. The swimming is the final step in a very long path to sensible living.Beyond this, welcome to the forum, and if you want to swim faster...do read ande's tips. :) But most importantly, enjoy your pool time and never turn it into work.

RE: Unrewarded Training

srcoyote — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 09:33:37 GMT

While I took up swimming again four years ago after a long hiatus mostly for relaxation and daily meditation, I also need to improve somewhat to stay motivated to do it. I probably won't enter any meets, but have instead concentrated on training for a handful of open water events each year. I started to get bogged down in self-training as my average 100 split never seemed to get much less than 1:28 or 1:30 over a 3K swim. Then I realized that at the pool I was training at, I was by far the fastest swimmer. I've since started mixing up where I swim and ensuring that I hit some places with swimmers faster than I. It's a real motivator especially when they are visibly older (I'm 39). I'm finally starting to see my distance times drop a bit.

RE: Unrewarded Training

Ranic — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:58:49 GMT

Actually, this seems to me like a fairly typical case of overtraining. Between your swimming, lifting, and karate, you're not leaving yourself enough time to recover. Try pulling back for a little while, then gradually begin to increase your training at a slower rate than before. Am I an expert on this stuff? No, but I've found that it's very important not to underestimate the power of rest.

RE: Unrewarded Training

pwolf66 — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:42:42 GMT

I am now training as well as I ever did really. I seem to go from one work-out to the next with brief rest stops in-between for my carreer and my family. I do dedicated resistance training three to four times each week in my private weight lifting gym in my basement (actually a pretty nice set up, and this is coming from a man who dabbled in body-building for ten years). I teach and train karate a minimum of three times a week right now (just competed, for the hell of it, in the ITKF Nationals last weekend). I do five ninety minute pool sessions each week, logging between twenty to twenty five thousand meters per week. This doesn't seem to leave you much time to balance the other areas of your life. Maybe you are significantly over-trained and your body just can't keep up with all this anymore? I don't see a whole lot of down time here to allow your body to recover/repair. Plus, reading this, I don't get a sense that you are enjoying it. I get a sense that this is just drudgery for you. Hey, it's the written word and I could be wrong. But that's the impression I get.

RE: Unrewarded Training

pwolf66 — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:38:37 GMT

Ah, a fellow type A++++++++++ :banana: Take it easy on yourself, sure we all want to get better, stronger, faster but 90+% of the human race is still sitting on the couch dreaming about it while you're busting your chops doing it. Folks have given you some very good advice and all I'm going to add is: don't focus so much on the destination that you fail to enjoy the journey.

RE: Unrewarded Training

ViveBene — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:23:22 GMT

Physiology changes with aging. Training methods change. Technique changes were introduced in the years you were out of the pool. Some ppl are just faster. There are some excellent workout blogs, both in the blogs proper and in the Workouts forum, that might help, WRT both planning the swim and goal setting (or resetting). There are also threads on how to train for and race 100, 200, 500. (The 200, for instance, is often trained for with broken 200s.) I left swimming to get a life and here I am nearly thirty years later with a wife, daughter, career ... I seem to go from one workout to the next with brief rest stops in between for my career and my family. This is of more than trifling concern.