USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:39:35 GMT

If some one shows up with a suit that is not on the so called approved list will USMS meet officials send the swimmer home. Perhaps a spanking?

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Former Member — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:30:26 GMT

If some one shows up with a suit that is not on the so called approved list will USMS meet officials send the swimmer home. When I was a teen they told me I could not wear blue jeans or a white sweat shirt to school. They pulled me out of class and sent me home. The next day I wore the same clothing to school, they again sent me home to change. I appeared at school for several days dressed the same. They soon gave up and I was allowed to go to class. I do not like rules. Floating rubbersuits should not be allowed. Neoprene suits should not be allowed.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

knelson — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:26:15 GMT

I could have sworn at some point I saw wording about suits needing to be one-piece. If so, sadly, that rules out your bikini! edit: just checked the current Fina wording and I was wrong unless it has been subsequently changed: "GR 5.3 In swimming competitions the competitor must wear swimsuit in one or two pieces which shall not extend beyond the ankles, the wrists and the neck. No additional items, like arm bands or leg bands shall be regarded as parts of a swimsuit."

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

kristilynn — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:24:19 GMT

then effective immediately at USMS-sanctioned meets, the officials would have to DQ not just anyone who stepped up to the blocks in a B70 or a Jaked, but anyone who stepped up in a TYR Aquapel or a Fab Swimwear polyester workout bikini. Wouldn't the bikini be okay according to the rules? It doesn't cover the neck or arms, and doesn't extend beyond the pelvis. I was thinking that I could start racing in my string bikini. However, I don't think that it would survive the start:blush:

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Justin Ritter — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:09:16 GMT

Thanks to the USMS powers-that-be for helping to clear this up. Of course there's still the mystery of what will happen with USMS times achieved now when they're submitted to FINA but I have a feeling that FINA has bigger concerns right now than worrying too much about what suit a masters swimmer was wearing when compiling their top 10 lists. I see chances being pretty high that other masters swimming federations around the world will be following USMS on this anyway. I wanted to say that I think USMS is doing a great job dealing with this mess. My only complaint right now is how unclear the FINA list is. I wish someone, FINA, USAS, the suit manufacturers, someone, would simplify the list so we know exactly what is on it and what isn't. As it's been pointed out there are some weird things with the list. At least it's safe to keep wearing my old, slow, stretched-out Tyr suit. And I'm in absolutely no danger of making any FINA top ten or records so I don't need to worry about that either.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:07:24 GMT

I'm wondering if FINA even cares or has any consideration for USMS or masters swimming at all right now. Care enough to play hardball and DQ all swim times submitted this season by the USMS for lack of perceived compliance? It seems that FINA can hardly deal with getting swimsuits tested and a fair list published for the world's elite swimmers. Is FINA really worrying about what suits masters swimmers are wearing in their masters meets this weekend? Hey - maybe they are concerned! But I can't really see it. I'm not thinking I am ready to break any world records this Sunday at the LC Mission Viejo Meet. But if I were going for a WR, just in case... I would wear a suit from the approved FINA list - Who knows? There might be a FINA official out there watching - and taking notes!

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Sandi Rousseau — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:07:19 GMT

For clarification ... at Masters meets at this point in time, there is no one writing down what suit you wore when you swam. Also, the FINA Masters World record keeper has not been instructed to change the Masters world record application form in any way to include the brand or model of the suit worn by the competitor. (This change has been made on the FINA World Record form.) So for all practical purposes, this information can not be tracked in hindsight for Masters.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

knelson — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:05:57 GMT

A thought just crossed my mind that maybe FINA should hire an independent consultant to decide on what the rules regarding suits should be. They've already hired an independent lab to do the testing, why not do the same thing for defining the actual rules? At first I thought this idea was crazy. How could someone who knows nothing about swimming decide on what should be legal or illegal in a swimsuit? Now I think maybe that's the only party that could do this in an unbiased manner. Look at the current state of affairs. Lots of people have pointed the finger at FINA for bias in writing the rules and deciding what suits should be on the approved list, but now we're seeing bias from other federations, too. The Italians will allow the Jaked suit at their trials. Do you think they would if Jaked was not an Italian company? Same thing in Japan. The Japanese kid Irie set a world record in an unapproved suit. Now they're miffed at Fina's ruling. How about USMS? I'm sure those on the EC had all the best intentions, but they are also affected by FINA's ruling. I'm sure many of them own suits that didn't make FINA's cut. I just don't think you can be impartial on something that affects you so much. I really think that only an entity entirely divorced from the sport can have any chance of making an unbiased proposal on what should be and should not be allowed in swimsuit designs.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

ourswimmer — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:33:27 GMT

Another point: I realize it may seem as if I think the Rules and Executive Committees have made a mistake, and I most certainly do not think so. Here is why. If USMS had decided that it would interpret the FINA situation as conservatively as possible, then effective immediately at USMS-sanctioned meets, the officials would have to DQ not just anyone who stepped up to the blocks in a B70 or a Jaked, but anyone who stepped up in a TYR Aquapel or a Fab Swimwear polyester workout bikini. Think of all the DQs and the surprised, disappointed swimmers. I think that DQ-ing all those swimmers just so that swimmers like me can feel surer about our FINA TT chances would be a terrible trade-off. Also, I assume that USMS will advocate with FINA for FINA to consider USMS's rule consistent with FINA's, rather than inconsistent, so it's not by any means assured that FINA will refuse to recognize USMS results for this interim period.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

ourswimmer — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:05:19 GMT

And could they refuse to accept all USMS times, regardless of the suit worn, because compliance cannot be established? I think that they could and that they well may, although I would appreciate some confirmation or correction from a true rules guru. Conceptually, the problem is the same as "did she surface before 15m, or not?" :D If the swimmer does not get DQ'd, then the swim counts for the record books, even if someone suspects that the responsible official was distracted at the critical moment. FINA respects the USMS meet results on the point because FINA is satisfied that USMS follows the FINA rule. With swimwear, USMS has announced that it will follow a rule that FINA may, or may not, accept as consistent with the FINA rule. If FINA does accept USMS's interpretation as OK, then times I swim in meets officiated according to the USMS rule will count. If FINA does not accept USMS's interpretation as OK, then my times will not count in FINA's eyes no matter what I personally do, because there will be no way to demonstrate after the fact that I did (or did not) comply with FINA's rule. The bottom line to me, then, is that I may as well wear whatever is consistent with my own personal goals. Those goals include not being DQ'd, so I will wear whatever USMS says is OK. But even if FINA's standard turns out to be more restrictive than USMS's, going above and beyond USMS's standard to meet FINA's more restrictive standard is not going to make any difference at all to whether or not my swim shows up in the 2009 FINA TT.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

knelson — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:04:59 GMT

If FINA is really just "continuing testing of the suits" (as someone suggested), why did it publish an official approved list? Or was this not actually "official"? And if it's not official, why are countries declaring compliance and enacting policies/rules based on it? Two points: 1. There was the wording about the rejected suits being able to resubmit (i.e. the 136 suits) that Presumably this would mean modifications to current suit designs (and, thus, wouldn't help those of use who own the original, unmodified designs). 2. Manufacturers such as Blue Seventy objected to the testing protocol in that permeability was tested with the suit material in an unstretched state. The test lab was going to retest the suits stretched ("as worn") to see if water or air could pass. If so, then they might have to revise their view about the construction of the suits being able to trap air. USMS has clearly taken the position that they are waiting for the final ruling by FINA before effectively banning suits, so swimmers in USMS meets can continue to wear these suits. However, it's my opinion that if you really want to follow FINAs edict, you should only be wearing suits that FINA has explicitly approved. And I agree about USMS will need to comply after FINA's final ruling. For now, USMS seems to be taking a "wait and see" approach.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

The Fortress — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:34:03 GMT

Rob, thank you for making this point - and we should all consider ourselves warned in advance. If I understand you correctly, it is to say "Wearer beware - if you want your meters (SCM or LCM) times to count for FINA World masters rankings or records - you have to decide if it is worth the risk of wearing a suit that is not on FINA's approved list; it may or MAY NOT be accepted by FINA..." Yes, very odd language. USMS will continue to submit times to FINA until they are not directed to by FINA ... At what point can/will FINA just stop accepting USMS times? And could they refuse to accept all USMS times, regardless of the suit worn, because compliance cannot be established? This seems like a temporary fix by USMS with the pending "appeal" as the hook. If FINA is really just "continuing testing of the suits" (as someone suggested), why did it publish an official approved list? Or was this not actually "official"? And if it's not official, why are countries declaring compliance and enacting policies/rules based on it? If FINA's list remains unchanged on June 19 and is deemed "final" for 2009 by FINA, I don't see how USMS couldn't comply. I can't see FINA accepting non-compliant times after a final ruling. Could they? Swimmers wearing suits would, as Sandi Rousseau put it, effectively be taking a chance that FINA couldn't "track these suits in hindsight"? That is very unpalatable. On the other hand, as I've said before, I think it's unfair to many US swimmers to abruptly change suit approvals mid year, when the rest of the world has been competing in SCM instead of SCY.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

swimshark — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:09:51 GMT

Here is the part that makes no sense to me: the FS-Pro legskins ("full pants" I suppose) are not listed but the "full" FS-Pro is listed twice, with two different model numbers. (And what exactly is the FS-Pro "classic?") . Chris, the classic might be the women's tank.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

kristilynn — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 06:26:16 GMT

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

knelson — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:25:18 GMT

Nice find, Bill. I got a kick out of Scott Spann's quote! :)

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

BillS — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:13:51 GMT

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

ande — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:36:18 GMT

here's an article USA Swimming Amends Rules Regarding Swimsuits June 1, 2009 COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado, June 1. FOLLOWING the ruling by FINA on May 19, 2009, regarding approval of swimsuits for international competition, USA Swimming's Rules and Regulations Committee has announced an amendment to rule 102.9, covering swimsuits at USA Swimming competitions. The committee has also outlined specific rules applying to swimsuits allowed at the 2009 ConocoPhillips USA Swimming National Championships and World Championship Trials and 2009 Open Water Word Championship Trials. These amendments are designed to provide consistency with the rules as established by FINA. Effective June 1, 2009, swimmers competing in USA Swimming-sanctioned or approved competitions will be governed by the following rules. Only swimwear approved by FINA, as reflected on its published list of approved swimwear, may be worn in any USA Swimming sanctioned or approved competition. Additionally, since the FINA-approved list only addresses "new model" swimsuits submitted by swimsuit manufacturers, swimmers will, until otherwise directed by FINA, also be able to wear traditional swimsuits provided the suits meet the following criteria: 1. For female swimmers, the swimsuit shall not cover the neck, extend past the shoulders or past the pelvis, and 2. For male swimmers, the swimsuit shall not extend above the navel or below the knees. There are currently 202 suits on the FINA-approved list. If and when FINA approves additional suits, those suits will also be allowed in USA Swimming competition. At the 2009 ConocoPhillips USA Swimming National Championships and World Championship Trials, and the 2009 Open Water World Championship Trials, the following rules apply, in addition to the above. Only those permitted swimsuit models that are available to all competitors may be used. To avoid confusion, availability is defined as follows: 1. The swimsuit manufacturer is present at the event with its approved swimsuits available for all competitors on a purchase, loan, give-away or other basis, or 2. The swimsuit manufacturer has provided to USA Swimming a written representation in the form requested by USA Swimming, that its approved swimsuit will be made available before July 7, 2009 to all World Championship Trials competitors and before June 14, 2009 to all Open Water World Championship Trials competitors on a purchase, loan, or giveaway basis through retail stores, the internet, or other means. USA Swimming will publish a list of swimsuit manufacturers who have made this representation once they are received. Competitors may rely on this list as approval to wear a particular swimsuit model at either event. from: Swimming World Magazine

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

chowmi — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:57:49 GMT

This is not “THE” formal statement, just an update FYI… Times achieved in USMS legal suits may be submitted for FINA top 10 and records. The FINA Masters records chair will continue to accept record applications as he does today and will continue to do so until such time as FINA directs him to do otherwise. Unfortunately I can’t be any more definitive than this, since FINA records are under the jurisdiction of FINA, not USMS. Rob, thank you for making this point - and we should all consider ourselves warned in advance. If I understand you correctly, it is to say "Wearer beware - if you want your meters (SCM or LCM) times to count for FINA World masters rankings or records - you have to decide if it is worth the risk of wearing a suit that is not on FINA's approved list; it may or MAY NOT be accepted by FINA..."

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Rob Copeland — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:34:21 GMT

Just received this email from Aquatimax Hi George, Yes, all of the Yingfa swimsuits we sell comply to the below charter. Rgds -- Eric Eldridge AquatimaxNote: while the manufacturer may state that the suit complies with the Dubai Charter, if it is not on the FINA approved list it is NOT legal for USA Swimming AND if it is not on the FINA approved nor on the FINA retest list it may not be legal for USMS. Other governing bodies outside the USA may vary.:confused:

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Rob Copeland — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:28:34 GMT

The USMS Rules Committee had a meeting this past Sunday evening and we had a 9/10 vote to take a position on USA-Swimming's new rule that was released today. It is now at the USMS Executive Committee's meeting tonight for a vote. So a formal statement will be forthcoming likely tomorrow AMThis is not “THE” formal statement, just an update FYI… The USMS Executive Committee met this evening and voted to not follow the new USA Swimming swimwear rule. Or in the nomenclature of our rule we voted to repeal the swimwear provision. This means that the current interpretation of the Rules Committee stands, which is: “FINA approval or rejection of new swimsuits introduced after September 30, 2007, will be accepted by U.S. Masters Swimming for USMS sanctioned and recognized competition. ” The 202 suits approved by FINA and the 136 that are to be retested are still considered legal. The 10 suits that failed FINA testing are considered illegal. Legal suits introduced before 09/30/07 are still legal, without needing to be on the FINA approval list. . Times achieved in USMS legal suits may be submitted for FINA top 10 and records. The FINA Masters records chair will continue to accept record applications as he does today and will continue to do so until such time as FINA directs him to do otherwise. Unfortunately I can’t be any more definitive than this, since FINA records are under the jurisdiction of FINA, not USMS.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Former Member — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:27:25 GMT

Just received this email from Aquatimax Hi George, Yes, all of the Yingfa swimsuits we sell comply to the below charter. Rgds -- Eric Eldridge Aquatimax My email to them - Can you tell me are YingFa swim suits legal to use in Fina meets re the Dubai Charter???. Fina PDF www.fina.org/.../the dubai charter.pdf

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Former Member — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:25:57 GMT

As an illustration of how confusing this is, the Speedo web site FastSkin suit model numbers DID NOT match any of the FINA numbers. If I take that literally, that means none of the suits currently listed for sale by Speedo are legal.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

The Fortress — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:02:20 GMT

In response to this ..... "If amendments to USA Swimming articles 101 and 102are adopted between the annual meetings of the House of Delegates, the corresponding portions of Part 1 shall automatically be adopted by USMS, except that such amendments may be altered, amended, repealed or changed by a nine-tenths vote of the Rules Committee and a majority vote of the Executive Committee." The USMS Rules Committee had a meeting this past Sunday evening and we had a 9/10 vote to take a position on USA-Swimming's new rule that was released today. It is now at the USMS Executive Committee's meeting tonight for a vote. So a formal statement will be forthcoming likely tomorrow AM about USMS' reaction to the new rule. USMS does not automatically accept all changes that USA-S makes and we do decide on them individually. Thank you. If USMS decides not to accept the USA-S change, I hope USMS will provide guidance, as some have asked, on the issue of whether times swum in a USMS-approved but not FINA-approved suit (e.g., B70, Renegade) will count for FINA ranking purposes.

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Former Member — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:17:55 GMT

So if the meet is entered and you go to the starting line with a B70 and they tell you you cannot wear it. Can the swimmer then change to a TYR and then they tell you that suit is not allowed. How many suits can you change into???

RE: USA Swimming's Interpretation for FINA's suit list

Sandi Rousseau — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:10:31 GMT