Normal Swimming Protocol?

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:09:35 GMT

also you can push off the wall underneath the lane line and do your SDK's there. In a crowded situation, that can really come in handy. Best advice ever particularly when you've got 5 to 6 flyers in a lane SCY doing repeats for time going 5 seconds apart. You will be screwed by flailing arms and turbulence if you don't use some major SDK off the walls.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:48:13 GMT

What I have learned from this thread is that normal protocol is that the lanes are in absolute havoc, and some swimmers actually like it that way.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

That Guy — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:57:07 GMT

What I have learned from this thread is that normal protocol is that the lanes are in absolute havoc, and some swimmers actually like it that way. I don't like havoc, that's why I train alone. But learning to deal with havoc does have its uses. In open water & triathlon swim starts, it can get really violent. The first time I found myself in that situation, I realized that spending my younger years in crowded lanes had prepared me perfectly for it. I fended off fools without breaking stroke. Someone swam on top of my legs so I automatically switched to a 6 beat kick; problem solved. I did struggle to ignore the mental signal to yield that fires when someone pointedly taps on my feet. In open water, it just means that whoever is behind me sucks at drafting.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

That Guy — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:16:14 GMT

also you can push off the wall underneath the lane line and do your SDK's there. In a crowded situation, that can really come in handy.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

swimcat — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:37:23 GMT

pass under them. it really freaks them out:)

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:36:20 GMT

That's one way of dealing with the over-inflated egos who swim in a specific (public swims, not team or Masters) lane only because this lane is marked as the fast lane (even though the other lanes—to flatter egos, I guess— are medium fast and medium. There's no slow lane. The trick when overtaking them is cutting in in front of them (and even if you're really only doing arm pulls) flutter-kick furiously right under their nose (literally). When this is repeated a few times, most of them get the message and move down. There's no science to it really. Slower boy was not hugging the lane line and was swimming almost in the middle of the lane. Add to that two big boys with fins coming the other direction. And there I am right in the middle passing as the part of the set was *fast* so I was not planning on slowing down. I avoided a collision by some stroke of luck. Anyway, great OW practice. The slower swimmer got out of the lane right after that.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:27:49 GMT

I actually had someone in my lane recently who was too slow to be there. I only got annoyed when he pushed off right in front of me (and this was LC and I was lapping him). But in retrospect, if he wants to stay there even after being almost run over when I passed him, good for him (and for me - great OW practice.) So. . . I say anything goes. That's one way of dealing with the over-inflated egos who swim in a specific (public swims, not team or Masters) lane only because this lane is marked as the fast lane (even though the other lanes—to flatter egos, I guess— are medium fast and medium. There's no slow lane. The trick when overtaking them is cutting in in front of them (and even if you're really only doing arm pulls) flutter-kick furiously right under their nose (literally). When this is repeated a few times, most of them get the message and move down.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:52:16 GMT

Osterber, Thanks for all the responses including the "it depends." I think that for the several questions I had on different scenarios, I could list 30 more situations. The point is how on earth is a newer swimmer to know what is appropriate or not? Even with years of swimming practices under my belt, it's not always clear cut as to what is appropriate or *best* for yourself and the others in your lane. Actually, let me change that last statement and say it's often very clear what would be best for me. One funny situation that comes to mind is when the entire lane misses the intervals. And yes, the coach did have a purpose for that. Just the other day I was told by my coach to "be more aggressive and run them over." Given the situation which I will not get into, I would agree with him. Now how does this fit into the desired kumbaya goal that we masters at least say we want to strive for? What I see in practices is people looking out for #1 (and I don't have a problem with this as it's called life and competition), whether it be via putting on equipment to be faster or to cover up a stroke flaw or get through an injury; rest a repeat; get out early; get in late; draft; just swim free; just swim stroke; do their own set; etc. I find it confusing when in the same breath those swimmers tell other swimmers to follow other rules like this lane may be too fast for you if you are lapped once in a set. Just seems almost humorous to me . . . Ourswimmer, I too have been swimmer 1 through 5 on various occasions. I hear you. If you're making the interval, then you at least have an argument to stay. IMHO, whether you should move or not may depend on some other details. For example, if it's a set of 20 x 100, and there are lanes going on 1:10, 1:15, 1:20, etc. The 1:10 lane has 5 people in it who are going 1:02-ish on each swim. The 1:15 lane has 2 people in it. If you're at the speed where you'd be going 1:09's in the 1:10 lane and touch-and-go on each one, or you could lead the 1:15 lane and make it by more, and perhaps go faster. You'd be the 6th person in the 1:10 lane or the 3rd person in the 1:15 lane. If it were me, I'd jump in the 1:15 lane and lead. You'd have an argument to stay in the 1:10 lane (since you're making the set)... but you're probably getting in the way of the others. On the other hand, if you'd be the 4th person in the 1:10 lane, and going at the back of the lane gives you some drag and allows you to keep up... by all means! If you're missing the interval, then you're in the wrong lane. To take the same set example... if you're swimming 1:09, 1:09, 1:09, 1:11, then you're in the wrong lane and you should move down. However, if you're doing the 20 x 100 on 1:10, and holding 1:05's most of the way, tighten up near the end and swim 1:08's and 1:09's on #17, 18, 19, and crash and burn and miss on the last one... then I think you're just fine. You took a shot at the faster interval, kept up with the lane for the vast majority of the set, and ran out of gas at the end. That happens! May depend on the specific scenarios. If this is the fastest lane, then there is sometimes the problem with a lane leader who is "too fast", i.e,. would move up to a faster lane if there were one. If you're making the interval, then I think you're probably fine. Especially if you're making the interval to the same degree as everyone else in the lane. It comes down to some mutual etiquette for both you and the fast lane leader to try to stay out of each other's way as best you can. I.e,. don't make it hard for the lane leader to pass you... but for example when the lane leader finishes, he/she needs to make sure they move to the side so you can flip and finish up your repeat. You're both in the right lane. Sounds like you're probably still in the right lane. Depends. Some of this will depend on your history with your lane-mates. To some extent, there is a need to build up "lane credibility". If you've been in the lane for a long time (like months or years, etc.), and everyone knows that you can cut it... but you have a lousy day, or didn't get enough sleep, or your shoulder hurts... then you'll be fine. If you're trying to break into a new lane as the newbie, and nobody knows you... then sitting out in order to keep up won't earn a lot of respect from others in the lane. -Rick

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

ourswimmer — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:04:59 GMT

I just have to wonder why Person #5 cannot be the fin police yet persons #1-4 can be the speed police. Are #1-4 not messing up the #5 person's workout? Why would fins be accepted and missing the interval not be accepted? Because one of the assumptions I stated was that another lane is available that is not too crowded already and in which Person #5 would fit in better speed-wise. If another lane isn't open--if all the other lanes are already overcrowded, or if Person #5 would be just as out-of-sync with them (or more so) as with Persons #1 to #4--then Persons #1 to #5 need to work together to figure out some compromise so that everybody can get at least a decent workout under imperfect conditions. The other thing to think about is that in addition to Person #5 in my scenario there may also be a Person #4.5--someone who would be better able than Person #5 to hang with Persons #1 to #4, but who doesn't really want to be Person #6 in the lane in a 25-yard pool. I was a Person #4.5 on my team for a while and it pissed me off, which may be why I have so much to say on this topic. I don't know if cantwait4bike is Person #5 or Person #4.5 or even Person #4, because his original post focused on fins and triathletes rather than on speed and available lanes. I think that fins and triathletes are red herrings, and what I take away from this thread is that most others agree.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:20:08 GMT

I'd be in la la land as well if I had your times. I dunno about that. I admit always being part of the fastest lane, but self-regulation with lane mates seems to work pretty well everywhere I've worked out. Although I only started last May after a 14 year break, I have worked out with masters teams this year at: South Bay Hawthorne, CA Menlo Park CA SCAQ -Santa Monica College SCAQ - Loyola Marymount SCAQ -Century City SCAQ - Echo Park Conroe School, Woodland, TX JJ Pearce, Dallas, Texas SMU - Dallas TX. Woodhead Pool -Riverside, CA Las Vegas Masters - Henderson, NV In every time while traveling, no one knew me or what speed I might be. I knew nobody there, or how fast they might be, but in each case things sorted out just fine quite quickly.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:12:28 GMT

it was all ignord and we had absolute carnage...which is exactly why I was there having fun!! LOL! :applaud: I'm so there! I really need to make out that way. I agree, for all the banter this kind of thing can be terribly delicious!

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:05:56 GMT

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Patrick W. Brundage — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:27:10 GMT

...it was all ignord and we had absolute carnage...which is exactly why I was there having fun!! ... so I missed all of the fun! I do, though, agree with the fundamental point that things get a lot more interesting the more crowded the lanes. I dunno about that. I admit always being part of the fastest lane, but self-regulation with lane mates seems to work pretty well everywhere I've worked out ... In every time while traveling, no one knew me or what speed I might be. I knew nobody there, or how fast they might be, but in each case things sorted out just fine quite quickly. I, too, have found this. I've worked out with a number of teams over the last 6 to 9 months while traveling and have not had problems. People are welcoming and it seems pretty quick to figure out the lane order. ... The coach on the deck drives everything in the practice. Thats' not to say there is no flexibility, but masters swimmers need a conductor. ... I do agree with that wholeheartedly ... maybe part of the reason my "traveling" workout experiences have also been so good is that I've tried to pick strong masters' teams/strong coaches to train with.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

pwolf66 — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:57:09 GMT

i recently started coaching some practices at a masters program where the coach writes a practice on a wipe-off board and then heads off to sit down or chat with someone on deck. :( aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

pwolf66 — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:54:50 GMT

I get annoyed when we're doing non-free sets, the coach gives an appropriate interval for the set, but there's 1-2 swimmers who decide to do free and adjust the intervals on their own. I frequently do this but when I do, I make sure that my lanemates know I am swimming free (and I move to lead the lane) and I also pick up the pace by swimming a pace much closer to a sprint and just deal witht he extra rest. Swimming free on stroke sets and decreasing the interval and affecting the whole lane is just something that I would never consider doing. I'm the one who's going off the page, so I'm the one who should have to adjust. Not the whole lane. That's just completely selfish behavoir.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:08:23 GMT

I recently started coaching some practices at a masters program where the coach writes a practice on a wipe-off board and then heads off to sit down or chat with someone on deck. :( Intervals and rest between sets are a free for all in each lane. Survival of the fittest and the strongest swimmer often decides the rest. The first day I coached, I swear swimmers were jumping out of their skin when I called out their times and eyes were opened wide to hear a stroke correction. But the best of all, was the subtle look of gratitude that came from swimmers in the back of the lanes. For organization of the lanes. They could actually make the send off for the presented set - and understood how to swim it correctly. The coach on the deck drives everything in the practice. Thats' not to say there is no flexibility, but masters swimmers need a conductor. A word or two about a little extra rest, a higher quality swim - or a bit less rest knowing there is a break at the end of the set can keep a lane pretty harmonious. Ande and Paul made some pretty good comments in regard to coaching not long ago that can apply here. #1 Swimmer - ASK the coach questions #2 Coach - get very active and involved in the practice I would venture to say that we loose many swimmers from masters because of perceived rudeness and lack of attention to varied needs in the lanes. Personally, I really dislike watching swimmers struggle with lane disorganization when I am on deck. And I can almost feel a swimmer's future pain when I watch poor technique. I figure besides being a lifeguard for the practice sometimes, this is the reason they pay me to be on deck.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Paul Smith — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 06:25:22 GMT

Man, there's a lot of testiness out there. Why can't we each show up and follow our bliss while generally sticking to the workout the coach gives? Maybe I'm obtuse, but we don't seem to have these problems where I swim. People seem to self-organize into the right lanes, do what the coach says and, if they make modifications, coordinate with their lane mates. patrick, I love ya man but let me clarify a few things: 1) you are always in the fast lane 2) you are always going 1st in that lane 3) people are afraid of you and stay out of your way (to be fair folks PW is a great guy...other than that Texas Longhorn thing) The reality was VERY evident today at Cactus where the switch was made to LC and the masters only had 3 lanes....which meant 8-10 swimmers per lane. Lane 6 (Patricks) was very orderly...he led, everyone else followed. People made room for swimmers coming in behind him, there was minimal gear abuse and no on got near anyones feet Lane 7 is the "interesting" lane as a lot of folks who could have been in Patricks lane went here to "cruise" and others who should have been in lane 8 were using wetsuits, pull gear, fins...and every other possible thing they could find to "hang" with the lane...an all out yelling match actually took place when the coach took one guys paddles away and refused to give them back. Lane 8 has some of the nicest people...and usually ould be orderly because they would have 2-3 lanes instead of one...so there was overflow from Lane 7...and me. In spite of my best efforts to explain some basic lane etiqutte (leave 10 apart, move over for swimmers coming in, go first if you want to wear fins on everything)...it was all ignord and we had absolute carnage...which is exactly why I was there having fun!!

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Patrick W. Brundage — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 05:49:23 GMT

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

aztimm — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 05:31:46 GMT

I get annoyed when we're doing non-free sets, the coach gives an appropriate interval for the set, but there's 1-2 swimmers who decide to do free and adjust the intervals on their own. My choices are usually-- * move to a slower lane that is usually way too slow, that I'm nearly lapping those swimmers * stay in my current lane, and struggle with the shorter intervals * stay in my current lane, and do the intervals assigned...which will cause problems eventually Now I don't mind if someone wants to do free instead of stroke, but move to an appropriate lane for it. I'm not a fast swimmer; I can do sets of 200 SCY free on 3 min easily, with 30 sec rest. Change that to stroke, and I'm struggling. Which is why the coach will usually give us 3:30 for a non-free set. We've had cases where some feel that since they're the first in the lane for the day that others should move, not them. We've had cases where people go in 'their' lane regardless of how many others are already in that lane. A lane could have 6 people, while those on either side have 2-3. We have some people who know they'll be doing the sprint set (on one side of the pool), yet get in the fastest lane for warm-up anyway, and have to cross over 4 lanes once warm-up is complete. We have some people who used to be fast, but haven't worked out for a few months, come back and get in the same lane they used to swim in. As someone else said, I swim mostly to reduce stress in my life, not create more from it. I'll usually go with the flow. If others are doing free for a 200, I may do a combination of 100 fr/100 non so I can still make their intervals, or make other adjustments to make things work. If I've been away or am feeling rusty, I'll move to a slower lane. Occasionally, I'll move to a faster lane, especially if few fast folks show up one day. Of course when doing longer swims (500+), we'll have lapping. A few weeks ago we had 5-6 people in a lane for a timed mile...I think I lapped one gal every 250, but she was excellent with pulling to the side at a wall when I got remotely close. Overall, the benefits of swimming with the team outweigh the negatives.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:50:19 GMT

I don't understand why people get so irritated/judgmental over equipment use. We're all adults. And we do all have different goals, agendas, meet focuses, injury issues, etc. Can't we live and let live? Sometimes when I read this stuff, I'm glad I practice solo most of the time ... Very true Leslie. It's masters which is why I stated that "anything goes" short of mooning your teammate (which now that I think about it, could be fun) and diving in on their head. And speaking of mooning and anything goes, I will never forget the time when one of my male masters teammates pushed me in with both his hands via my butt! I opted to not be irritated or judgmental! Who's going to place judgment on a Kona #1 age group finisher? I can say that I've seen swimmers don equipment and then draft the entire practice off the lane leader. So I think that's where people may get a bit annoyed as it certainly affects their workout. And when you look to the coach, they shrug their shoulders. . . I do, however, still feel a tiny bit sorry for the hard lesson that a newbie or tri swimmer may learn (Can'tWait4Bike will be itching to go to his bike after this thread) after they have worked so hard to learn the basics and then they come into masters to see everyone swimming with paddles and fins. I can see the shock registering on their face as they realize that now they are very slow compared to the rest of the group and they need to learn to swim with paddles ASAP. Don't know about others but it took me quite a while to learn how to swim fast with paddles. Still have yet to learn to swim with fins! ;)

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:04:16 GMT

Sometimes when I read this stuff, I'm glad I practice solo most of the time ... No kidding. I've got enough battles going on throughout the day, I don't need them in the pool as well.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:12:09 GMT

I think that a person has an obligation not to impede his/her teammates and their practice. If someone constantly wears paddles and can't control his arms, hitting people, that's a problem. Other than that, I don't see why someone else's decisions about equipment should be my business. I'm not the person's coach or parent. And even if I were, masters swimmers are adults, not children; they are perfectly able to decide whether their use of equipment is excessive or not without hearing my voice on the matter. The coach can offer his/her opinion, or suggest less dependence on equipment, but most masters coaches I know won't press the matter. I think that's great, it is one of the charms of masters swimming. Always the voice of reason. What I'm getting out of this thread is that I think we are all in agreement that equipment will be used when people want to use it. What is fascinating to me is that some of these equipment lovers seem to have a problem if someone who chooses to not use equipment wants to stay in their lane and they are a bit slow for the lane. God forbid if a an equipment lover has to pass someone once or even twice during a set. If I'm leading a lane (and I'm not wearing equipment) and I've got to deal with two paddlers (and needing to avoid their windmill arms and drafting) and two finners (wake and drafting), adding in a slightly slower person (that I may have to pass) will not make a difference to me. But all of a sudden, the finners and paddlers are annoyed if they have to pass this person on occasion. Sounds to me like they can't deal with their own medicine.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:39:55 GMT

In my limited masters experience, people sort themselves and lanes out just fine. In our program, everyone does the coached workout with intervals and distances or reps adjusted by the coach to suit each lane. People populate each lane based on similar speed/conditioning. Intervals dictate who stays in a lane or has to move elsewhere. Regarding toys, If they slow you down enough to miss that lane's intervals, you better move. If they enable you to go faster, that's great, step up and work with some faster people. One guy can use fins to do 100's at around my speed. The last 2 days he's jumped in and paced right next to me for much of the workout (while wearing fins). He worked harder and longer than he normally would, so more power to him. I probably went faster too because he was there. No problem there. Another guy is one of those who can go faster with paddles (I never understood that). He's the same speed I am in practice, but tends to mentally fade towards the end of longer challenging sets. He'll throw on the paddles and keep going. It lets him finish the set at high intensity and keeps pushing me too. Regarding the early leavers, that is annoying, especially when Coach is calling out finishing times. Use that as an incentive to always, always catch them and go past the last 25. Even if you have the same finishing time, they know you started out behind.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:38:16 GMT

My team, for the most part, does the sets as written. We have one guy who uses paddles for everything, but for the most part people aren't switching things up--at least not in the lanes I swim in. That said, I don't have a problem with people doing their own thing. But I do think the onus is on them to stay out of the way of the swimmers who ARE doing the written workout. I'm starting to think that there are some pretty significant differences between west coast and east coast swimming. . . I think that in general the west coast has a larger number of faster swimmers - just look at the records. I'm lobbying my husband to move out there.

RE: Normal Swimming Protocol?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:21:44 GMT

In my opinion it means staying out of the other swimmers' way. I don't mind if someone in the lane has to skip a 50 now and then or stop at the wall and let others pass, but if they make you pass them constantly then it's time for them to find a different lane. It's a good day for me if I'm lapping people constantly. :) Great job on your 500 BTW! Sub 5:00??!! An experienced coach can work it so that people will be minimally lapped. I've seen sets be created to prevent excessive lapping (short distances) and to ensure success for certain swimmers. Makes sense to keep the peace so to speak.