Hypoxic training for Masters?

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 06:59:55 GMT

If a coach says: "We're gonna do some SDK work" - I think that is very clear (although age groupers do not know what SDK is). Coaches could make this stick. "We're gonna do some hypoxic" - I think most Masters swimmers think that means stuff like 3-5-7. My two swimmer sons (16 and 19) have heard their 3-5-7 sets called "breath control" sets, not hypoxic. Their coach is close to my age though and I bet she learned it as hypoxic.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 06:51:42 GMT

Agreed. The only times I do this kind of set is if I want to work on stroke efficiency (ie DPS) or mechanics, or work on alternate breathing, or if I want to limit how fast I can go (ie recovery). Which I guess is Maglischo's point. Personally I think the term "hypoxic" should be expanded to include underwater work and work with snorkels (especially when the intake is partially blocked). I think a new term should be create instead of adding yet another level of confusion to "hypoxic." I don't have a suggestion just yet - but when they do - they should notify the coaching associations, and send an email to all interested parties. Then the stupid age group coaches could start teaching their kids the right terms and methods.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:59:16 GMT

We do hypoxic (3-5-7-9) sometimes in Masters practice. At speed I don't like it as I think it makes me rush my strokes to get air more quickly. At slow speed it can help to concentrate on smoothing out the stroke (probably a sign that my breathing action is inefficient).

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Allen Stark — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:45:23 GMT

I agree with Chris and Jim.Swim like you race or an exaggeration of your race.For instance in BR if you don't do a good pullout every time you certainly won't the last 1-3 turns of a 200.Lately with the extra distance from tech suits and the dolphin kick rule I have been trying to acclimate by doing some double pullout sets(2underwater pullouts before breakout).The only value I see in the 3-5-7 sets is to make you think.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

jim thornton — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 06:46:00 GMT

A few random thoughts here: lung capacity per se is a relatively trivial element in aerobic performance. there have been one-lunged Olympians (not sure which sports) who have reportedly performed well. the ability of the skeletal muscles to extract oxygen from the blood, and the ability of the blood and circulatory system to pick up oxygen and carry it to these muscles, then pick up CO2 and carry this back to the lungs--these are much more critical factors. training is very muscle specific, and one of the adaptations aerobically trained muscles undergo is the ability to uptake more oxygen and nutrients from the blood stream than untrained muscles. one-legged bicycle training trials have shown that the same person can have a great VO2 max in the trained leg--and a mediocre one in the untrained leg based on my recent familiarizing with the hypoxic training literature (sleep high, train low), the benefits of this are debatable at best. There may be a small benefit to sea level performance, but a lot of researchers now think that sleeping at altitude (real or simulated) probably does little to enhance sea level performance, but it may help pre-acclimate you to high altitude performance. You may wonder, what about natural blood doping? It's true that bivouacing at altitude does increase your blood's oxygen carrying capacity, but it also makes your blood a little sludgier (more RBCs per unit volume). Some researchers now believe that these two effects essentially cancel each other out, resulting in no appreciable benefit. In any event, there seems to be no "simulated" altitude training effect from hypoxic sets because such don't last long enough to triggrer any significant blood changes. swimming, like many sports, has no shortage of "everybody knows" conventional wisdom training truisms that may, in fact, be false. Hypoxic sets may, in fact, fall into that area where coaching and hazing rituals intersect. the "need" to breathe is driven by a build up of CO2, not a decrease in Oxygen. As I once posted elsewhere, I help my breath for nearly two minutes out in Boulder with a pulse oximeter on my finger. It was exquisitely painful, but my blood oxygen saturation level did not get down below 94 percent. Later that day, atop Pikes Peak and breathing ad libertam, I felt absolutely fine--even though my ox sat now was 91 percent. The build up of CO2, not a defiicit of OX, is what hurts and tells our diaphrams to breathe! i like hypoxic sets myself, primarily because I am pretty good at them. i find them relaxing. however, when i was our team's player coach and would write the workouts, I always prefaced any hypoxic set with a warning: if you see what appears to be a swarm of black dots closing fast across your visual field, you probably need to breathe. And quickly. one other possible benefit, if there is one, to hypoxic training is the psychological effect--you adapt yourself to this form of discomfort so that when you encounter it in a race, it doesn't freak you out. Who among us hasn't had an overwhelming urge to sneak a breath on a final stroke on a 100? If we have taught ourselves we can safely ignore this impulse, maybe we can shave a couple hundredths off our time? And with SDKs, mental habituation to hypoxic discomforts os no doubt even more important. all this, of course, is moot now. our Y has posted all these sheets in the pool area, printed on orange paper, proscribing any breath restriction whatsover! the days of whine and hazes, it would appear, are kaput at the Sewickley YMCA.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Paul Smith — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:30:26 GMT

Personally I think the term "hypoxic" should be expanded to include underwater work and work with snorkels (especially when the intake is partially blocked). I have thought this way for years. I have also never been an advocate of (and refuse to do) breathing 3-5-7-9 stuff. Instead (on short/speed stuff) I will focus on taking no more than 1-2 breaths per length max (if at all) and on pull sets rarely do them without a snorkel that is fitted with a restrictor cap.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:02:59 GMT

Chris - I completely agree that we should all train (at least sometimes) like we want to race. That includes doing SDKS. But swimming freestyle breathing every 7 strokes doesn't help underwater SDKs. When most people talk about "hypoxic" they are talking about breath control swimming. And I suggest that the data shows it has little or no benefit. No one swims as fast breathing every 7 as they do breathing every 2 or 3 strokes. Maglischo says we would benefit more overall swimming faster breathing as needed. That is different than sprinting - more like racing. I'm talking about hypoxic sets, like those coaches have assigned for years - 10x100 breathing 3-5-7 etc.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

ande — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:39:26 GMT

Chris, your workout swims are pretty dang impressive along with your ability to take 5 or 6 SDKs off each wall on long hard sets. I wuss out too often, need to do a better job at keeping a kick count going in fast 100's & 200's, don't think I've ever made a hard 200 with 6 SDKs off each wall in practice or a meet. Austin Staab says he takes 7 off every wall in practice, no matter the set. Seems to me some swimmers are SDKing further, breathing less, & going faster times. I agree if you want to do something in a meet you need to do it in practice so often that it's a habit. Ande I think what Maglischo was saying was that you can build more lactate by swimming faster, and that generally requires more oxygen. That you do not build as much lactate in hypoxic sets, and so hypoxic sets are not a good way to build up lactate tolerance. But that seems like a pretty dated statement to me. Anyone who thinks that hard underwater kicking doesn't generate as much lactate as surface swimming isn't doing it right, IMO... Of course SDK is about hydrodynamics. And the longer you can stay under (up to 15m), the faster you can go in the race...if you can control your oxygen debt. Hence the hypoxic part. What you and other hypoxic nay-sayings are basically saying is that doing such work in practice doesn't prepare you for race conditions except psychologically (which isn't a small thing, btw). My own view is, why take a chance on training in a way UNLIKE the way I plan to race? And sometimes I'll take more underwater kicks than I plan to do in a race because, let's face it, one can rarely swim as hard in practice as in a race.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:26:52 GMT

But swimming freestyle breathing every 7 strokes doesn't help underwater SDKs. When most people talk about "hypoxic" they are talking about breath control swimming. And I suggest that the data shows it has little or no benefit. No one swims as fast breathing every 7 as they do breathing every 2 or 3 strokes. Maglischo says we would benefit more overall swimming faster breathing as needed. Agreed. The only times I do this kind of set is if I want to work on stroke efficiency (ie DPS) or mechanics, or work on alternate breathing, or if I want to limit how fast I can go (ie recovery). Which I guess is Maglischo's point. Personally I think the term "hypoxic" should be expanded to include underwater work and work with snorkels (especially when the intake is partially blocked).

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 07:25:23 GMT

I My own view is, why take a chance on training in a way UNLIKE the way I plan to race? And sometimes I'll take more underwater kicks than I plan to do in a race because, let's face it, one can rarely swim as hard in practice as in a race. Seriously... this guy knows what he is talking about! Posting this simply because I know - masters swimmers need to hear it more than once!

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 06:24:30 GMT

As for SDK - that is not an oxygen issue at all. It is a hydrodynamic issue. The evidence clearly shows that swimming underwater can be faster than swimming on the surface. Maglischo wasn't saying don't swim underwater. He was just saying that when you're swimming - it is probably better to swim faster with breathing than swimming slower with less breathing. I think what Maglischo was saying was that you can build more lactate by swimming faster, and that generally requires more oxygen. That you do not build as much lactate in hypoxic sets, and so hypoxic sets are not a good way to build up lactate tolerance. But that seems like a pretty dated statement to me. Anyone who thinks that hard underwater kicking doesn't generate as much lactate as surface swimming isn't doing it right, IMO... Of course SDK is about hydrodynamics. And the longer you can stay under (up to 15m), the faster you can go in the race...if you can control your oxygen debt. Hence the hypoxic part. What you and other hypoxic nay-sayings are basically saying is that doing such work in practice doesn't prepare you for race conditions except psychologically (which isn't a small thing, btw). My own view is, why take a chance on training in a way UNLIKE the way I plan to race? And sometimes I'll take more underwater kicks than I plan to do in a race because, let's face it, one can rarely swim as hard in practice as in a race.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:25:05 GMT

A little breath control works well in a 50 or 100 race. The less you breathe the better your balance.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:52:52 GMT

Thanks for the link; although disputing the adaptations we've mentioned, the article did not at all seem "anti-hypoxic" in nature. The whole "athletes can swim faster with more oxygen" of course ignores underwater SDK, which is faster than most surface swimming and is my own reason for any hypoxic training I do. In fact, I was pleased to see that Austin Staab seems to approach his underwater training similarly to me with his whole "at least 7 kicks off every wall" to build underwater endurance. His interview is here. Pretty incredible that he could do the last 25 of his 100 fly without a breath. I agree the article I cited was not anti-hypoxic. It was a bit dated (2003) and mentioned Counsilman's view. But it didn't provide any evidence that hypoxic training actually worked. Maglischo suggests that it doesn't work as claimed, and perhaps not at all. As for SDK - that is not an oxygen issue at all. It is a hydrodynamic issue. The evidence clearly shows that swimming underwater can be faster than swimming on the surface. Maglischo wasn't saying don't swim underwater. He was just saying that when you're swimming - it is probably better to swim faster with breathing than swimming slower with less breathing.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:42:16 GMT

If you want to feel pain in practice as you might in a race, swim in practice as you might in a race. I'm an advocate of breathing, btw.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:41:25 GMT

I have always looked at hypoxic sets as ways to simulate races, in that I'm hurting during a race. And if you do hypoxic sets that push or challenge you then you should be hurting a bit. Seems to make me tougher in my races. I have never disputed the mental aspect of this. I think most here know that it is faster to breathe less in sprints. It is faster because the stroke is disrupted less by breathing. But sprinting a 50 and breathing 1 down, 2 back isn't easy for most (including me). But practicing it - and proving to ourselves that we CAN make it without passing out gives us the guts to do it in a race. So race simulation in practice is a good thing and that includes breath control. That is different however that saying as some do that hypoxic training actually produces a physiological benefit. Tjburk - I agree doing SDK well requires oxygen. And it is really hard to do at the end of the race. Hell it is hard to do at the beginning for me!

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Paul Smith — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:31:43 GMT

Pretty incredible that he could do the last 25 of his 100 fly without a breath. Complete speculation on my part...but I'm betting he wouldn't pull that off without using the current generation of suits. I've always enjoyed hypoxic work...for me there is a "comfort level" with the discomfort so to speak. I find that I'm so used to the "feel" from oxygen deprivation in workouts that it doesn't enter my mind during a race.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:15:18 GMT

Hypoxic training can be both beneficial and detrimental. Beneficial on the mentality side using it as a way to say I can do this but detrimental if your body is not getting enough oxygen. If you don't want to do it or don't feel comfortable about it then don't. The coach can't swim the workout for you and you need to be aware of what you can do.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 05:46:46 GMT

Dan, I think SDK is a combination of both hydrodynamics and oxygen...especially on that last turn of a race.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Karen Duggan — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 02:57:35 GMT

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:58:07 GMT

The way I had it explained to be by my high school coach was this: Hypoxic training is used more to train the muscles how to become more efficient at using the oxygen it has, by depriving the muscles of oxygen, you break the muscles down and when they rebuild they are supposed to be more efficient than before...Same kind of result you get from weight lifting cycles. He never really said a whole lot about increasing lung capacity....

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:39:07 GMT

This article speaks to hypoxic training for swimming. It specifically mentions Counsilman's view on it. It also acknowledges later that there is no proof it improves the muscles ability to handle oxygen. There has been far more scientific research into training and physiological issues specific to swimming than many realize. One of the cool parts of Maglischo's book is that he examined the research - so much of it done at the US Olympic training center - to make his recommendations. On page 445 he says: "The original purpose of hypoxic training was to simulate training at altitude. Proponents thought that reducing the breathing rates of athletes would also curtail their oxygen supply and create the same kind of hypoxia that takes place at altitude. Research has shown that this assumption was incorrect. Several studies have shown that hypoxic training does not reduce the oxygen supply to the tissues (he lists several from 1978 to 1989)." "Despite results like these, hypoxic swimming continues to be a popular form of training.....perhaps because it produces other currently unidentified training effects. On the other hand, it may simply be that the difficulty of swimming with reduced breathing appeals to coaches and athletes because of the effort and discipline it requires. Some coaches reason that training that causes so much distress must be doing something worthwhile for swimmers." "Beneficial effects are not evident, however, at least as far as aerobic capacity is concerned." "One could argue that restricting breathing can actually reduce the overall aerobic training effect." "A compromised oxygen supply will cause more production of lactic acid, which in turn will cause greater acidosis at slower speeds." "Some coaches have suggested that hypoxic training can increase the buffering capacities of muscles and blood vessels because of the acidosis that occurs when oxygen supply is reduced. Hypoxic training is unlikely to be any more effective than free swimming for this purpose. In fact, it may be less effective for the reasons cited earlier, name.y, that athletes can swim faster and thus with more racelike stroke rates and stroke lengths when they breathe regularly."

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Stevepowell — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:29:50 GMT

No disrespect for people who have had strokes. (I've had three myself) but, the statement that "a lot of swimmers die from strokes" begs the question: Which of the four —FINA-recognized— strokes are we talking about here? Two of these would probably kill me. I also have had a stroke. That's what it took to get me motivated to start swimming (and quit smoking)! Lung size doesn't increase according to: www.sciam.com/article.cfm

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Former Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:59:32 GMT

I am sure that it is the *** stroke. I have had many a 200 IM go well until that pesky stroke.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:22:23 GMT

This article speaks to hypoxic training for swimming. It specifically mentions Counsilman's view on it. It also acknowledges later that there is no proof it improves the muscles ability to handle oxygen. ..... "Some coaches have suggested that hypoxic training can increase the buffering capacities of muscles and blood vessels because of the acidosis that occurs when oxygen supply is reduced. Hypoxic training is unlikely to be any more effective than free swimming for this purpose. In fact, it may be less effective for the reasons cited earlier, namely, that athletes can swim faster and thus with more racelike stroke rates and stroke lengths when they breathe regularly." Thanks for the link; although disputing the adaptations we've mentioned, the article did not at all seem "anti-hypoxic" in nature. The whole "athletes can swim faster with more oxygen" of course ignores underwater SDK, which is faster than most surface swimming and is my own reason for any hypoxic training I do. In fact, I was pleased to see that Austin Staab seems to approach his underwater training similarly to me with his whole "at least 7 kicks off every wall" to build underwater endurance. His interview is here. Pretty incredible that he could do the last 25 of his 100 fly without a breath.

RE: Hypoxic training for Masters?

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:11:56 GMT

I agree that we should all attempt to practice how we want to race. And that includes breathing management. I just don't think there is much scientific evidence that "hypoxic" swimming truly increases lung capacity. I think Maglischo's book talks about this. He says that breath control training teaches you to overcome the fear of running out of breath. We all need to get used to the feeling of running out of air. Yes, I agree with you about lung capacity. In fact, I dimly seem to recall reading that lung capacity diminishes with age and that exercise has no effect on that. Of course, I may be confused...age has that effect too... But I doubt this is the only possible physiological adaptation. I don't think altitude training, for example, increases lung capacity, nor do I think the results are purely psychological. (I believe Doc Counsilman used to think that hypoxic training simulated altitude training. That doesn't make it so, of course.) The psychological aspects of hypoxic training are kind of interesting. I was talking to the U of Richmond coach about this. He has his swimmers do a lot of work with snorkels, and they restrict the air intake by 50% at least. They swim really fast with those things. I, on the other hand, have had some near-panic attacks even with an unblocked snorkel if I push it too hard. (My own purpose with using the snorkel isn't to do "hypoxic" work, but there is that side effect.) But their best backstroker has panic attacks on underwaters whereas I don't. The UR coach reported that using a nose clip helps her with this, she feels more in control of the rate of "bleed" that she allows when underwater. Regardless, I still recommend extreme caution in doing hypoxic work. There is a basis for panic attacks, after all. A typical masters swimmer who is happy with his/her turns probably doesn't need to work on it at all. If you want to stop breathing in/out of turns, or extend your underwaters in races, just start doing those things routinely in practice -- especially on (near) race-pace efforts -- and you won't even think about it much during the race.