Men's NCAAs 2009

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 15:18:49 GMT

Many division 1 sports have athletes that are more professional athlete than student. Perhaps swimming is comming into the mainstream. It may be time to go with the flow. Isn't the goal to increase participation, recruit fans, and bring money into sports programs? Or is it to be a Luddite and never change. Heck, I don't know. I don't like the suits though. They seem to take away from the original intent.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:24:28 GMT

So if you think it's the same arguement as the LZR from the preceding year and the NCAA banned the LZR due to access in 2008, why don't you blame the NCAA and not FINA this year for allowing the suit that all teams don't have access? Typo in my response Chris. Try this. I may make more sense. My question is about the NCAAs response to the LZR the preceding year. If the suit presents a similar question of access for individuals, why is the newest suit technology this year not under the same set of scrutiny as last year? Doesn't matter if its a winning team or not..... access is access in the end.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:40:55 GMT

Typo in my response Chris. Try this. I may make more sense. My question is about the NCAAs response to the LZR the preceding year. If the suit presents a similar question of access for individuals, why is the newest suit technology this year not under the same set of scrutiny as last year? Doesn't matter if its a winning team or not..... access is access in the end. I don't know enough to have an opinion, just questions. If the suits were available at -- and presumably approved for -- the Olympics, are they really "new?" Why would only Auburn (or whomever) have access to them? What evidence is there that this suit is really faster than the LZR? (I don't trust Lord's article at all on this score, he seems to take issue with the non-Speedo suits.) Anyway, so what if it is? The issue is access, not effectiveness. I'm only guessing, but since the NCAA allowed the LZRs, I can only assume that they would just allow all suits that have been approved by FINA. I would hope that includes the issue of access since that's the FINA rule. Otherwise the NCAA would have to start up their own approval process, which is probably needlessly redundant and confusing.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 06:27:00 GMT

Mr Neg, I don't really understand this post. I think I said that if there is blame, then it rests with FINA. Their own rules state that everyone should have access. (If these suits have been around since the Olympics, why wouldn't that be true?) I don't know enough backstory on this to have a strong opinion. I'm certainly not going to form one based on one article from such an obviously biased source (I'm talking about Craig Lord, btw, before you get your panties in a wad). Are you trying to say that a certain un-named, apparently despicable team used these suits in the NCAAs, that they conferred an unfair advantage, and that no one else could get the suits? Please elaborate. I think he is saying that, not only does Aubrun cheat with foreign swimmers, they use cheat suits too (made by an Italian company no less). Yawn....

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 05:00:50 GMT

Well, according to Lord's article the Jaked is better than the LZR and is (surprise!) an abomination. Amazing how Speedo seems so lilly pure and everything else is dirty. If these suits are so much better than the LZR, why didn't the Italian team dominate the Olympics? After all, it's the suit not the swimmer, right? So if you think it's the same arguement as the LZR from the preceding year and the NCAA banned the LZR due to access in 2008, why don't you blame the NCAA and not FINA this year for allowing the suit that all teams don't have access?

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

orca1946 — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 02:28:41 GMT

Does an on line course make you a student?

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 01:39:17 GMT

So if you think it's the same arguement as the LZR from the preceding year and the NCAA banne0d the LZR due to access in 2008, why don't you blame FINA and not the NCAA this year for allowing the suit that all teams don't have access? Mr Neg, I don't really understand this post. I think I said that if there is blame, then it rests with FINA. Their own rules state that everyone should have access. (If these suits have been around since the Olympics, why wouldn't that be true?) I don't know enough backstory on this to have a strong opinion. I'm certainly not going to form one based on one article from such an obviously biased source (I'm talking about Craig Lord, btw, before you get your panties in a wad). Are you trying to say that a certain un-named, apparently despicable team used these suits in the NCAAs, that they conferred an unfair advantage, and that no one else could get the suits? Please elaborate.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 14:23:28 GMT

We will have to agree to disagree on this statement. I believe he has been coaching for almost 4 decades. There are plenty of reasons kids want to go swim him other than slightly lower Texas in state tuition costs. I don't mean to downplay Eddie himself. His record, his 2-time Olympic coach status, etc. are tremendous advantages. In fact that plays very well with Texas' other advantages. But with a roster size of almost 40 today - most of his swimmers have no scholarship money at all. I'm sure the parents of many of his swimmers appreciate the lower costs. Their choice could be 1/4 or 1/2 scholarship somewhere else, or zero scholarship swimming for Eddie. It is relatively easy to choose the latter.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 13:40:05 GMT

.... So I think Eddie is successful recruiting Americans because it is relatively easy for him to do so. We will have to agree to disagree on this statement. I believe he has been coaching for almost 4 decades. There are plenty of reasons kids want to go swim him other than slightly lower Texas in state tuition costs.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 13:27:57 GMT

Kirk, Keep digging. You'll need to do a little more checking than the web site. The suits were not available to everyone prior to the meet. Is this the reason Auburn won..... of course not. Is it one more tactic to push the envelope? Tell me your thoughts on the rest of my comments. Do care if kids aren't on campus the whole year and not sitting in classes as the rest of the domestic athletes are required ..... and aren't even swimming in some of the dual meets in the Fall and then show up for the last months of the season and go to "The Show" as if they were a "team". You don't think this "World Cup" rule gets a bit ridiculous? Wen does the NCAA become the ICAA?

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:56:38 GMT

I remember seeing them at the Olympics last summer. Not sure if it was the same suit as Auburn wore at NCAAs or if this is a new version. Here's a picture of Federica Pellegrini from Beijing: www.exposay.com/.../ Well, according to Lord's article the Jaked is better than the LZR and is (surprise!) an abomination. Amazing how Speedo seems so lilly pure and everything else is dirty. If these suits are so much better than the LZR, why didn't the Italian team dominate the Olympics? After all, it's the suit not the swimmer, right?

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

knelson — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:43:39 GMT

I have never seen or heard of one of these suits I remember seeing them at the Olympics last summer. Not sure if it was the same suit as Auburn wore at NCAAs or if this is a new version. Here's a picture of Federica Pellegrini from Beijing: www.exposay.com/.../

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 10:23:45 GMT

Do care if kids aren't on campus the whole year and not sitting in classes as the rest of the domestic athletes are required ..... and aren't even swimming in some of the dual meets in the Fall and then show up for the last months of the season and go to "The Show" as if they were a "team". I have no idea how widespread this practice is among foreign swimmers, and of course it is bad behavior. I am naturally against anything in "college athletics" that overemphasizes the second word and trivializes the first. (Though I suspect our objections have different sources, since you seem to be protecting the "team" aspect of the college team and I would guard the "college" aspect.) But is this behavior specific to foreign athletes? No way. Plenty of similar stories of US athletes behaving this way, especially in the "big" revenue sports. And back to swimming: when I was in college, during an Olympic year I remember one (US) swimmer who barely attended classes and did no homework until NCAAs, then promptly dropped all her classes and went home to train until Olympic Trials. Equally bad behavior in my book, though completely legal by NCAA rules. College coaches in general (not just in swimming) have incentives to downplay the college education of their charges. Even here at U of Richmond -- a selective liberal arts school that is not in the business of big-time athletics -- I hear whispers, true or not, about how athletes are "encouraged" by their coaches or peers to avoid "hard" majors, or classes that are taught at inconvenient times (wrt training). I don't respect coaches who act that way...but it can be understandable if their job security depends almost entirely on their athletic success. It is up to the institution as a whole to create an environment where such behavior is not tolerated, and that should include rewarding coaches for academic performance. The "requirement" that domestic athletes attend classes...if that's an NCAA rule, it is one that has been instituted after I attended college. The only such rules I have ever heard of have been specific to teams or universities. (For example, a previous football coach at UR would randomly send someone to check that his athletes are in class and are sitting in one of the front rows. I don't think he had any foreigners on his team, but if he did I very much doubt he would have made an exception for them.) In this respect, swimming is fortunate because it isn't a high-profile, revenue-generating sport (where temptations are greater). Swimmers on the whole also tend to be pretty disciplined about their studies, though there are obviously exceptions.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

The Fortress — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 09:34:15 GMT

Last year the Lazer was banned because not all the schools had equal access to the suit. This year a new suit pops up with new technology in the manufacturing and not eveyone has access to it. Does this not hit an ethical chord with any of you? This from the guy who wore a TYR "wetsuit" to SCY Nats in Austin when no other masters swimmer had access to it and it was not available for purchase?

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

That Guy — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 09:15:13 GMT

I have a dumb question about Jaked. Does it rhyme with "baked," "naked," or "jacked?"

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:19:31 GMT

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 05:34:38 GMT

Mr. Stevenson, Your thought's on some of the coaching comments and results of the new suit technology that several swimmers used at NCAAs. The Jagged Edge Of Jaked Results www.swimnews.com/.../6766 Everyone gets one..... or no one gets one. Wasn't that the rule last year? I have never seen or heard of one of these suits, but substitute the word "LZR" and "Jaked" and this is a recycled article from early 2008, right? Many of the exact same phrases were used. The state of swimming is in flux WRT these types of suits. If it isn't against the rules, what are we supposed to do? FINA seems to be moving to standardize things and slow the approval process. To the extent that fault should be assigned, I believe the blame lies with FINA. Hopefully things will be cleared up by this time next year. I also do think there is a tendency right now to assign all credit/blame to suits, regardless of any other factors (including other forms of cheating. Amazing how nobody hears about doping in swimming anymore.)

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

knelson — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 04:41:31 GMT

Tell me your thoughts on the rest of my comments. Do care if kids aren't on campus the whole year and not sitting in classes as the rest of the domestic athletes are required ..... and aren't even swimming in some of the dual meets in the Fall and then show up for the last months of the season and go to "The Show" as if they were a "team". Yes, I think they should be full-time students who are physically on campus to be on the roster. I don't really have a problem with kids starting after winter break, though.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

knelson — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 01:25:56 GMT

I just went to the Jaked website and they sure seem to be available for order. Obviously I didn't go through the entire process. It's possible it would have told me they can't ship to the U.S. It really seems like you're making up reasons (or excuses) for why Auburn won--or why Texas lost. What's next? Auburn's a quieter town than Austin so their swimmers get better sleep at night?

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:48:44 GMT

A few of these non-american swimmers may be displaced if the current downturn in the economy makes it less feasible for some top swimmers to finance their swimming by turning professional. Not that there's huge numbers, but it might make a difference. I must confess, purely as a spectator sport, I have found the level of NCAA champs more compelling the last few years, partly due to the outside swimmers. Not germane to the topic, but I agree this is one of the top meets in the world. By the way, even though, as a foreigner I have embraced metric, I think the US Open yards records should be called World records...because they are. By the way, I still think the biggest improvement to the NCAA champs would be to huck the divers right out of the meet. Let the best swim team win.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:12:54 GMT

My answer to that is yes. That does not make me jealous, a hater, a protectionist or anything else other than someone that loves college and Olympic swimming and wants the US to dominate... Paul...my apologies. I misunderstood your posts as someone who didn't like how AU and Zona built their programs.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:54:06 GMT

Would people be swimming 18's left and right now, if the two Auburn foreigners (Bousquet and Cielo) hadn't done it first? Those two raised the bar for NCAA swimming. I applaud them. Would Bousquet and Cielo be quite as good if they didn't come and train in the US? Why not focus on finding another Robin Leamy or Tom Jager instead?

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:41:26 GMT

Your confusing me with another Smith...I hate Texas almost as much as USC.... Paul...I hate USC too. Ever since Steve Spurrier became their football coach...can't stand em. :)

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:39:40 GMT

In other words you have no idea who I am, what I stand for or an understaning of my posted postions here. Paul, I know that you care about swimming. I know that you care about American swimming and want to see it be the best swimming country in the world. But it also comes across that when a college, like Auburn or Arizona, use foreign talent to improve their swim programs, people seem to want to see them burned at the stakes for supposedly taking away spots for American kids. If ANY school is breaking the rules in terms of what their student-athletes are doing or how they are taking classes, then yes they do need to be punished...regardless of foreign talent or not. BUT, if AU, UofA, Cal, use foreign talent legally...then what is the fuss about? If the top American kids don't want to go to Auburn or Cali to swim, then the coaches shouldn't have to waste their time going after lower level swimmers, if they are able to legally get good swimmers from other countries. There is nothing wrong with bringing in foreign kids to help improve one's program. I swam with a lot of foreign kids. To this day, I am grateful for that opportunity.

RE: Men's NCAAs 2009

Former Member — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:37:17 GMT

Would people being swimming 18's left and right now, if the two Auburn foreigners (Bousquet and Cielo) hadn't done it first? Those two raised the bar for NCAA swimming. I applaud them.