Coaches and Sprinting

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Former Member — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:40:12 GMT

Ian, Would love to hear more about how your coach manages the spinters. I am always trying to find new ways to get faster. Does your coach have sprinters off by themselves every day? Once a week? What was your taper like? Greg Greg, Perhaps I'm lucky in that I go last in a lane with three (max 4) others who are younger and are middle/long distance, all-strokes swimmers. They are slower than me in a 50m but miles faster in anything over 100m. i.e. I need more rest than them in practice even (especially!) for 25m or 50m reps. It is easy for the coach to manage me since I am the only ‘sprinter’ he tracks and I am going last in the lane, so can stay out of the way of the others. I can sit out 50s or leave 10 or 15 seconds behind them if I want to speed up, without interfering. They are used to me and know what I'm doing so that helps. Here is one example using some of our typical SCM times (Hey, we’re not that fast!! this just shows the principle) ……..if there is a set of say 6 x 100 on 1:45 (a tightish interval for me if I'm swimming all on 1:20 – I would not be able to speed up much if some reps had to be faster than others) The others can swim all 6 in 1:15 but the coach might ask for the 3rd and 6th one to be hard. I can get those down to 1:10-1:13 as do the others. i.e. I come down from 1:20 to 1:11 say, and they come down from 1:15 to maybe 1:09. And he plays with the intervals, squeezing and/or relaxing them depending on where we are with respect to target meets. This uses 100s as an example but he does this sort of thing with all distances 25, 50, 75, 125 etc and with different strokes & kicking, pull, skulling etc. The result is that closer to race time 1:45 does not seem as tight anymore and you can crank up the speed when needed. There is some speed work at every workout, even during the aerobic build-up phase early in the season. He intersperses the fast, shorter stuff (as in the 6x100 above) with "active recovery", longer "stretching out" 200s free or choice. While the others all do the 200’s, the coach has me do 150’s (more rest for me allowing to be faster on short stuff) and in taper sets, maybe only very easy 100’s. (more rest yet) The taper is pretty standard – shorter and shorter with higher intensity and longer rest (+ active EZ recovery) as you approach the meet. My lane mates get antsy when we do 50’s on 1:30 so in the interspersed longer distances they can swim harder for longer – this keeps them happy (but makes them stale in my opinion, but what do I know about over 100m) To help me figure out fly I may do free/fly in some 25m combinations when others do IM or back (they are fast enough). Although, I almost never do more than 25m fly at a time but usually a brisk pace. Again, I can do speed while they are working hard on evil stokes & the like. Prior to the current coach, it was pretty well fitness/triathlon type training but what he does here with me may not be manageable in other programs. Per week, I have two coached sessions of 1 ¼ hours and one uncoached with a triathlon group where I make my own mods to their workout with the same strategy as above. I hope this helps (BTW, Ande has good stuff on sprinter training in his SFF series), Ian Ian

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

jordangregory — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:30:30 GMT

For the first time I have recently had an ex-competitive sprinter (NCAA from the early 90's) as a Masters coach. He 'manages' the reps and sets I swim (or don't swim) in a lane with mostly fast 30 & 40-something middle/long distance women. (FINA masters top 10'ers or equivalent). I go last in the lane so don’t get in the way. After my first serious meet of the year, I can report that it makes a huge difference to follow a 'coach-managed sprinter program' within a standard master's set-up. As has been said here often, the 'managing' has to do with how much to sit out (rest) and which reps to do at what pace (mostly when to go easy or really fast). Especially important was how he managed the taper period (two weeks in this case) – no thinking required; just follow the coach's orders. Anyway it worked well - at age 68, this weekend I did an LCM 50 free in 27.50, LCM 100 in 1:02.81 & LCM 50fly of 30.68 – improvements over my times two years ago of 27.90, 1:04 something & 31.02 respectively. The right coach can indeed delay the ravages of aging - except for fly swims. I'm still trying to figure out fly; maybe I should get a monofin…. A spin-off benefit of a coach who knows what he is doing is that I have been more consistent in attending practice (3 x /week) and dragging myself off once a week to the weight room (not coached). I know I should do more, especially weights – it does help. Ian. Ian, Would love to hear more about how your coach manages the spinters. I am always trying to find new ways to get faster. Does your coach have sprinters off by themselves every day? Once a week? What was your taper like? Greg

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

jim thornton — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:08:20 GMT

Thank god, Chris. Finally you are talking sense! I hadn't thought about the sniffing of the suit, but I now plan to sleep the night before with the B70 wrapped tight as a sleep hat around my head, mouth, and nostrils. Just as the magic shoes helped that clod footed ballerina dance as if inspired by the gods themselves, look for a slightly less mediocre than usual performance from this aging Zonesman this weekend! Unlike Mohammad Ali, I will not predict exactly what round my old PR for the 200 freestyle will fall. But you might want to look at me at the 137 yard point in the race, at which point I can virtually guarantee that the elapsed time will be less than my lifetime best final time for the 200!

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:55:57 GMT

Alas, the only good news in your missive was that you did wear a B70, and despite incredibly good times, it didn't make a tremendous amount of difference. I am left praying that I, similarly be-suited, might soon experience tremendous time drops too, at which point I guarantee I will proclaim that the suit did not make any appreciable difference for me either! Zip! Nil! Nada! Bupkis! Thinking about my last meet, I have come to realize that these suits are truly miraculous.:bow: I wore a tech suit on my first event of the meet and then wore briefs only for all other events. Now, it goes without saying that the tech-suited event was my best of the meet. But consider!!! My best brief-clad race was the one immediately following that race. And my worst brief-clad race was the last one of the meet! What other conclusion can we draw from this, other than the fact that the effects of this incredible technology last well beyond the time you actually wear the suits??? The longer it was since I last touched, felt or smelled the suit, the worse my performance. As a matter of fact, I had a mild case of sniffles before my first race. GONE! And so was my mild elbow pain! I pity those who attempt to train in any "old school" manner. I have knowledge of ongoing experiments...these are secret, pending publication, but I feel compelled to share some of the results: actually practicing in the water is no longer necessary! All you need to do is roll out of bed, put on the suit, get back in bed and grab another 30 minutes of sleep. With a proper-fitting suit, the results of this behavior are completely indistinguishable from spending an equivalent amount of time training in the pool. Or lifting weights. Experts were divided as to the mechanism, but the several speculated that the suits hampered breathing, resulting in hypoxic training. And we all know what that's worth.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Former Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:54:28 GMT

Yes Jim, I patronize NZ products – mostly their Marlborough region Sauvignon Blanc but also their swim apparel. It’s funny though, with all the talk about buoyancy (mostly by people who haven’t tried them, I’m sure), I found there was no extra buoyancy. None. Zero. Zip. In fact, I felt gypped because I expected some magic floating feeling and there was nothing. But…..it is slippery. I noticed it on the first push-off from the wall – you go further than normal. This saves a few strokes after the dive and each turn. (I’m looking forward to a short course meet) As per Ande’s recommendation, I tried the suit at a practice. On a purely subjective basis, in a set of SCM 100’s free, a rep with the suit that felt like it was swum in 1:20 was actually done 1:15 - so it seems to provide some reduction of effort. Not being one of these 9% body-fat 20-somethings, I get the benefit of the compression that you get with all full body suits (the “jiggle factor” benefit which is very big in sprints). At 6’ and 165lb, I took a size 26 – seems good so far. In all, it just seems like a logical step in technological progress but hardly a giant step. The biggest improvement for me came from a very sprint specific 50m focus but I have to say I was a bit (pleasantly) surprised with my 100m time. A 100 is the beginning of long distance for me. A purely subjective wild ass guess is that the suit itself is worth something like 0.1 secs per dive and turn and 0.3 secs per 50m swum at my pace. However the suit is one of many factors: This year’s time = Last year’s time + age time effect – new tech suit effect – sprint specific coaching effect – weights benefit +/- training effort I have room for improvement in the weights and training effort departments (at least until the age effect becomes exponential) Unlike Jim, I believe in all this but have to battle my laziness habit and actually do it (get my butt to the gym & pool). Ian. PS: Jim, haven’t you heard? – they’re building a zillion dollar wall along the border – to keep you from escaping? You won’t be able to get out. In the meanwhile, just go get a loan from one of your government-owned banks and get yourself a B70 – you will be pleased by the results (do weights too – don’t do as I don’t do, do as Fort says).

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

The Fortress — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:33:01 GMT

A purely subjective wild ass guess is that the suit itself is worth something like 0.1 secs per dive and turn and 0.3 secs per 50m swum at my pace. However the suit is one of many factors: This year’s time = Last year’s time + age time effect – new tech suit effect – sprint specific coaching effect – weights benefit +/- training effort I think there is some discrimination going on here ... When I say things like this, I get a laundry list of reasons why I am extremely delusional. But you got off scot free, Ian! Jim is BS-ing you though. He has had a great year in the pool. No reason for it not to continue, despite the hypochondriasis. Carry on with the wine drinking and fast swimming!

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

jim thornton — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:22:09 GMT

Jim, thank god! Let me reiterate, a little bit louder this time! Drive for show (as in the 25k, 1560 and/or 1650, etc.) and putt for dough (as in the 100, marquee event, where a .06 second victory is to swimming what the pleistocene era is to the geological time scale.) I am quite sure that rested you could have gone faster! Maybe even .05 seconds faster. I am also quite sure you, well, DIDN'T! Ah, the crowing of a weakling! What a wonderful sound to the ears of the weaking who makes the crowing sound! Ian, I must say that when I saw that you had posted a reply, my heart leapt up. A bidding war! I thought. George and Ian have to come to fisticuffs over the rights to adopt me and call me son! Alas, the only good news in your missive was that you did wear a B70, and despite incredibly good times, it didn't make a tremendous amount of difference. I am left praying that I, similarly be-suited, might soon experience tremendous time drops too, at which point I guarantee I will proclaim that the suit did not make any appreciable difference for me either! Zip! Nil! Nada! Bupkis! I will swim not for personal glory, though--only to make you proud enough of my efforts to reconsider the adoption matter that is so very close to both of our hearts. Like an East German begging to be free of his nation's tyranny, please Ian! Do not forsake your greatest admirer! Allow me to escape the land of impoverishing freedom of markets if not souls! Oh, and it goes without saying I am George's greatest admirer, too. And for that matter, given his proximity to cheap pharmaceuticals available at every bodega without a prescription, the epic distance swimmer Jim "Long Drive Champ" Clemmons as wel--one year or two years my senior, 06 seconds my inferior, but in every other way my very defintion of a hero and favorite rich uncle who knows how to help his nephew! And I don't mean tough love! Quite the opposite.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Former Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:51:14 GMT

Jim I would like to have you as part of the family. First four things that must happen. 1. You must cheer for the Vancouver Canucks hockey team... 2. You must cheer for the Toronto Blue Jays baseball team... 3. You must cheer for the Toronto Raptors basketball team... 4. Most important cheer for the Hamilton Tiger Cats football team...

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Former Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:21:54 GMT

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Jim Clemmons — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:09:30 GMT

Jim, Jim! What's next? Kicking sand in this weakling's face? Have you bested my 53.25 100 yet this season? No, I failed miserably. Only a 53.31...what you don't want to know is what I swam beforehand. Still think I could go a mid to low 52, rested.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

jim thornton — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:05:26 GMT

done done done and done!

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

jim thornton — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:47:45 GMT

Jim, Jim! What's next? Kicking sand in this weakling's face? Have you bested my 53.25 100 yet this season? You probably have, and if so, DO NOT READ the next sentence. Drive for show, putt for dough. Leslie, this may seem a bit counterintuitive, but there is one way to get me to stop railing about the unfair advantage of the B70. And that is to help me get my absolute best times while wearing one. Only if this happens will I have an incentive to join you in a fine case of folie a deux. The incentive will indeed transform as if by magic the moment I begin setting PRs in a B70. Right now, or course, it's still in my interest to think that all my "betters" are beating me solely because of superior technology. However, if my own times do manage to leap frog past theirs, then I will gladly join you in believing till my dying breath that the B70 provided at most a borderline trivial benefit to me, that the vast majority of my improvement is a case of....hmmm, let's see. Practices haven't been going that well. No weightlifting whatsoever. I got it! I have more character than the people I beat! Yes, I am sure of it. If my times drop via a B70, it will be because I have miraculously, and completely independently of the suit, rallied a leap of personal character to the fore! And if I continue to swim in the mediocre fashion that has become more rule than exception, it is because others (like Mr. Clemmons and his merciless bullying tactics and calling of attention to my weakness!) are cheating through technology and the kind of psychological warfare tactics not practiced quite so brutally since the days of Don Shollander in the urinals of whatever the Olympics he practiced them!

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Jim Clemmons — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:31:48 GMT

We who lift believe this is a rationalization for him to avoid picking up anything more than a 3 pound weight. I think you meant 3 pint weight?

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

The Fortress — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:23:56 GMT

Don't worry, Ian, I believe you, as I think weight lifting/sprint specific training accounts for some of my recent time drops. Jim still believes that there is "no scientific evidence" to support the proposition that weight lifting helps sprinting. We who lift believe this is a rationalization for him to avoid picking up anything more than a 3 pound weight. Congrats on your impressive swimming!

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

jim thornton — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:17:56 GMT

Ian, You Canadians have become the envy of the world, or at least my world. I feel horrible for asking you this, but your swimming times are so good and so improved that -- forgive me, mother Leslie! -- I must ask if there have been any wardrobe changes since your times have dropped? To wit, in the lingo of you foreigners (whose ranks I hope to shortly join; uno momentito, por favor), has your swimming costume changed at all, possible vis a vis the adoption of another colony, New Zealand's, greatest contribution to the world since sheep and the Flight of the Conchords? As for joing your ranks, you are 12 years my senior, plenty of time for you to have conceived me in your first moments of manhood in yesteryear. And even if technical fatherhood is dubious, are there any laws in Canada proscribing the late life adoption of a 56 year old American nary do well and his family? I want to be like you, Ian, and this starts with becoming your Canadian son! For some reason, your colleague from BC, George Park, has thus far balked. Congratulations on amazing times!

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:44:28 GMT

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Former Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:39:06 GMT

When I have my own lane, I just tell my coach I'm working on sprinting. So if he gives us 10x200 I'll do 50 sprint 50 easy on the same interval, then get some extra rest while they finish up each 200.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Speedo — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:34:29 GMT

I wouldn't worry too much about Zones, if I were you. Book a massage after to help speed recovery to prep for Nats. I would try the tech suit. Maybe give it a whirl in practice if you want to see how it feels. The proposed plan may work for college kids, not such a good plan for masters perhaps. Even a sprinter extending up to 200s shouldn't be "working hard" less than a week before Nats. 5-6 days is more of a mini taper or distance taper. I followed Chris Stevenson's taper plan for Auburn and it worked very well (see "Drop Dead Taper" thread). You need a plan to taper and drop weights too. Maybe the following: 3 weeks out: drop cross training, drop or taper weights depending on how much you're doing (I think Wally and Chris S. drop weights 3-4 weeks out, but they heavy lift 3x a week) 2 weeks out: drop weights, drop yardage slightly, drop intensity -- no hard aerobic work, fewer sprints 1 week out: drop yardage and intensity, only do a few fast 50s and 25s with a couple meet warm ups at the end of the week. I frequently hear swimmers I respect say that we need more rest than we think. You've worked really hard this year. I'd give a real taper a shot. Thanks- I agree about Zones. We're also on the same page with the taper concept- the schedule you outline above is what I was anticipating I'd do. I'm still lifting 3x/wk but am into the "Taper" phase of Lezak's weight routine. My last lifting day will be 2wks before Nats, and I think it's 1 round of 10 reps; light and for speed. I don't think my skinny a$$ needs as much rest from weights as Wally or Chris. So I'll be able to rest from weights since I do that on my own. Also still doing the AFAP stuff 2x/wk outside of practice- I was thinking I'd do that up until Zones and then start to cut down 2 weeks before Nats. Will definitely take the advice on massage and tech suit if it is an option.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

The Fortress — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:32:49 GMT

Is this what you would suggest a month out? I'm sort of a sprint/middle distance freestyler w/ a distance-oriented coach. I was a little concerned today when he told me his thoughts on how I should taper. I've got Zones 2 weeks prior to Clovis. He suggested resting 5-6 days prior to Zones, work hard the week after, then do another 5-6 day taper for Nats. This sounds like more of a distance swimmer's taper to me, and from what I remember, 5-6 days is when you start to feel like crap during a taper. On the good side, he made it sound like I could borrow a tech suit, which I don't own. But I have to say I'm a little concerned about a new suit and different taper. I'd rather work through Zones and concentrate on Clovis. Any thoughts, or am I stealing this thread? I wouldn't worry too much about Zones, if I were you. Book a massage after to help speed recovery to prep for Nats. I would try the tech suit. Maybe give it a whirl in practice if you want to see how it feels. The proposed plan may work for college kids, not such a good plan for masters perhaps. Even a sprinter extending up to 200s shouldn't be "working hard" less than a week before Nats. 5-6 days is more of a mini taper or distance taper. I followed Chris Stevenson's taper plan for Auburn and it worked very well (see "Drop Dead Taper" thread). You need a plan to taper and drop weights too. Maybe the following: 3 weeks out: drop cross training, drop or taper weights depending on how much you're doing (I think Wally and Chris S. drop weights 3-4 weeks out, but they heavy lift 3x a week) 2 weeks out: drop weights, drop yardage slightly, drop intensity -- no hard aerobic work, fewer sprints 1 week out: drop yardage and intensity, only do a few fast 50s and 25s with a couple meet warm ups at the end of the week. I frequently hear swimmers I respect say that we need more rest than we think. You've worked really hard this year. I'd give a real taper a shot.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Speedo — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:25:11 GMT

You might want to ask your coach to explain the logic behind the plan he/she suggests. The plan is somewhat different than just swimming hard up to five or six days before Nationals and then resting for the first time. You're probably right- I'll talk to him about it. I'm sure the time prior to the 5-6 days will not be a mid-season type regimen, but the "work hard the week after Zones" made me nervous. Then again, I haven't tapered in decades and the plan may have changed a bit.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

elise526 — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:52:58 GMT

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Speedo — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:39:36 GMT

So now that it is championship time... are some of your coaches dishing out some nice race prep sets and practices? Fast swimming off the blocks - relays - 2 turn 25s - broken swims and all those cool race prep pieces of your swims? This can be tough for coaches who work with teams only sending a few swimmers to the big meet. I like to have everyone participate in race prep practice sets regardess of their meet participation. That way everyone sharpens up and gets a little faster. Never fails either, that some swimmer (or several) contact me about swimming with the team for the first time ever. "Taper and Race Prep practices can be so much fun going into the big meet - hope you're all getting some! Is this what you would suggest a month out? I'm sort of a sprint/middle distance freestyler w/ a distance-oriented coach. I was a little concerned today when he told me his thoughts on how I should taper. I've got Zones 2 weeks prior to Clovis. He suggested resting 5-6 days prior to Zones, work hard the week after, then do another 5-6 day taper for Nats. This sounds like more of a distance swimmer's taper to me, and from what I remember, 5-6 days is when you start to feel like crap during a taper. On the good side, he made it sound like I could borrow a tech suit, which I don't own. But I have to say I'm a little concerned about a new suit and different taper. I'd rather work through Zones and concentrate on Clovis. Any thoughts, or am I stealing this thread?

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Former Member — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:08:24 GMT

I had our team do this set last night. The concept of doing a 100 on 4:00 was totally alien to them. Then when they did their first 50, they saw how hard it was, even with the extra rest. Everyone, all abilities, did what I called this "speedwork" set per someone on this thread's suggestion. And all lanes did the sprints at the same time, so it felt like a team effort. They were totally into it, and it was a change from what we usually do. They were really tired after doing the set but didn't hate it. I think all the swimmers on the team I coach like to see their progression and have benchmarks, so I think doing this sort of set every now and again is a good idea. Again, thanks for the feedback on sprinting intervals/sets. This kind of set really is best when the whole group does it. The fight to not slow down too much is just that much stronger when the group does it together. These kinds of sets kill me. I recover very slowly and am completely trashed at the end.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 06:42:18 GMT

"In order to swim fast one must swim fast." Pause for a Zen moment...now ponder that pearl of wisdom.. I LOVE THIS THREAD... Don't let it die until every USMS coach sees it or one of their swimmers forwards it for their coach to read! By the way all of you distance swimmers, Dave Salo, whether you like him or not, notoriously calls his DISTANCE SWIMMERS - LONG SPRINTERS!! I LOVE THAT SECOND to this thread since the thread impacts masters swimmers first.

RE: Coaches and Sprinting

Former Member — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:43:01 GMT

I have heard that some Masters coaches are more interested in general fitness than speed.What is your experience? Do you feel that your coach prepares you to swim 50s and 100s?Is sprinting a regular part of practice at least once a week and if so do you do it as a main set or as an add on at the end?Do you do lactic acid sets?How much do you work on starts and turns?As a coach I use sprints to fine tune their stroke and develop mental toughness. I do 25 yd. sprints and require them all to dive, stream line past flags, keep their head down, arms in perfect position, feet kicking steadily, good amount of effort put into it, I make sure they finish from the flags to the wall with out breathing, and a nice touch. Since I'm a middle school coach I work on one at a time. I'm currently on stream line past flags w/o breathing, and no breathing between the flags and wall. It's a great form of punishment, and a great reward is saying "you worked so hard today, we wont do sprints". Ultimately, you play how you practice. If you practice nothing but long distance and go slow, you can't expect to go fast when you need to.