Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:59:59 GMT

Andre, OK - turns out I'm not REALLY pathetic, just mostly so. I did an all out 25 yd kick as if my life depended on it. Starting in the water, kick off the wall as hard as I could (I didn't do this before), no kickboard, tried to keep a streamline position. My 25 yard time was 43 seconds. I did a 50yd the next day at 1:35. I think the main difference is that when I was timing myself before, it was more of a training exercise/pace and I didn't go all out. I know 43 is still pathetic, but it was nice to actually see the lane tiles go by, instead of thinking I could count them one by one. I've read a lot in the "horrible flutter kick" thread and will certainly be doing several 25's all out in my workouts. I can also tell I've got some leg strength issues and some conditioning issues as I cannot hold the pace, such that it is, for very long. Thanks! bw beachwolverine, That is much faster and makes much more sense. Follow Ande's advice, and focus on your kicking during practice. It took me about 4 weeks of serious focus on my kick to build up decent kick endurance (I did 4x200 kick no fins yesterday). Before that, I would kick a 50 for every 100 everyone else could do. I am not fast yet, but I no longer get lapped during kick sets.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:52:30 GMT

His name is Ande. If you need ankle flexibility and like pain, you might want to look into The Rack. It's more effective than simply sitting on your ankles, which also works somewhat. I've also found that long, stiff fins do a good job of loosening up the ankles while simultaneously strengthening the legs. Just make sure to kick hard, just as if you had no fins on.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

ande — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:01:46 GMT

Hey Beach, congratulations you've established your starting points & already improved your 50 k from 2:30 to 1:35 that's huge but as you know kicking a 50 in 1:35 is slow I know you can improve even more. Focus on improving your 12.5 & 25 yard kicking speed Here's your next assignment. do another all out 25 k for time where you: 1) PUSH OFF HARD / glide further then 2) Do small fast SPLASHY kicks (splash a lot) 3) have a friend video you while you kick fast then report your results in Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible and put the video on youtube and give us the link work for 6 weeks on improving your 25 kicking speed then retest your 50 kick & 100 free Kicking fast will improve your efficiency Ande, OK - turns out I'm not REALLY pathetic, just mostly so. I did an all out 25 yd kick as if my life depended on it. Starting in the water, kick off the wall as hard as I could (I didn't do this before), no kickboard, tried to keep a streamline position. My 25 yard time was 43 seconds. I did a 50yd the next day at 1:35. I think the main difference is that when I was timing myself before, it was more of a training exercise/pace and I didn't go all out. I know 43 is still pathetic, but it was nice to actually see the lane tiles go by, instead of thinking I could count them one by one. I've read a lot in the "horrible flutter kick" thread and will certainly be doing several 25's all out in my workouts. I can also tell I've got some leg strength issues and some conditioning issues as I cannot hold the pace, such that it is, for very long. Thanks! bw

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:31:32 GMT

Thanks Andre - will do. I woudn't say I "improved" as much as the first time was not measured correctly. That said, I certainly do look forward to improving on the 43/1:35. Regards, bw

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:12:46 GMT

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

ande — Sun, 08 Feb 2009 06:54:10 GMT

beach, here's the first thing for you to try do a fast 25 kick for time Let me know what your time is Ande

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:27:31 GMT

Thanks Andre, I was just reading the "Help my flutter kick is horrible" and the progress that many have made are very encouraging. I start on it immediately. Unfortunately, I'm in Memphis or I would love to have you look at my kick. We don't have too much going on here with Masters swimming, so I don't have a coach to watch me. One quick question on ankle flexibility - do you have any idea what the average range of motion is? i.e. angle change from toe pointed to toes pulled back. I haven't used a protractor, but guessing, I'm around 50 - 55 degrees and I suspect that is really inflexible, but I would like some reference to understand where I am. I'm rather analytical as you may have guessed. Thanks again.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:21:04 GMT

If I could drive the ball 300 yards I wouldn't care about my 50 kick time. Heck, I don't care about my 50 kick time anyway. Your athletic skills are impressive. Keep kicking away, you'll improve. I wonder if ankle flexability is detrimental to smacking the heck out of the ball. Maybe that's my problem.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:00:22 GMT

Thank you all for your replies. They are very helpful and I will try some of the advice. Since I'm not out to be competitive, I really appreciate Jim's take - BUT I do want to improve. To answer a few questions. No, I'm not doing the tombstone - my times just look that way - and yes, it is an all out 50 yd kick at 2:30. I do believe I only get power on the down kick with nothing on the up kick. I'll find some drills to work on that. Seems like it would have a lot to do with ankle flexibility. Speaking of which - if I'm lying down and point my toes out as much as possible, the angle between the floor and my feet would be somewhat greater than 45 degrees; pulling my toes back as far as possible would be a little past perpendicular (90*). So a range of motion not much more than 45*. I'm sure that is bad, but is it REALLY bad? Lastly, I appreciate the workouts i.e. 12 x 25 on :45 - but that is tough when the best 25 I can do is more than 1:00 (remember this is pathetic). but 12 x 25 at my best pace can be done and hopefully I will be able to do the :45 in the future - as Jim says; I've got 40 years to practice. Again, thanks to all of you for taking the time to help and advise. Maybe I can post back in a few months with great improvement. Regards, bw

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:46:03 GMT

notsofast, Thanks for the encouragement. I have several things to try out and have more confidence that I can improve my kick after hearing stories like yours. Thanks, bw

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:36:34 GMT

You and I are in the same boat, dude. I'm in pretty good shape - slower than your 100 but faster on the kicking, though still a slow kicker. I post a lot on the "horrible" thread. Most people probably laugh at my times, but the hell with them. Your ankles sound really tight, and that makes a big difference. Little kids are great kickers, and it's because their ankles are so loose. Stretch your ankles, and work on making them floppy. It's painful, but it helps. I ditched the board - too depressing. If you need the air, kick on your back. If you have the time to devote to it, you will get better. You can do it, my friend. If I could get a little better, you can get a lot better.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

ande — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 12:40:29 GMT

an ideal toe point should be 180 degrees from the shin like this gymnast or this swimmer toes should be pointed without forcing them to point www.clevelandleader.com/.../michael-phelps-marfans.JPG when you're standing your foot is 90 degrees to your shin fast kickers pointing their toes/feet to 180 degrees or more swimmers turn their feet inward create an even better angle. watch phelps feet in this video YouTube - Michael Phelps turn if you can point your toes you'd probably kick faster on your back kicking with fins will help you too. Thanks Andre, I was just reading the "Help my flutter kick is horrible" and the progress that many have made are very encouraging. I start on it immediately. Unfortunately, I'm in Memphis or I would love to have you look at my kick. We don't have too much going on here with Masters swimming, so I don't have a coach to watch me. One quick question on ankle flexibility - do you have any idea what the average range of motion is? i.e. angle change from toe pointed to toes pulled back. I haven't used a protractor, but guessing, I'm around 50 - 55 degrees and I suspect that is really inflexible, but I would like some reference to understand where I am. I'm rather analytical as you may have guessed. Thanks again.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

ande — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:02:50 GMT

hey there, you really are a slow kicker and a prime candidate for Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible obviously the sets need to be modified to accomodate your needs probably just do 2 rounds of 4 x 25 kick on the easy ones: rest 30 - 45 seconds on the wall before doing the next easy one before the fast ones: rest 1:00 - 2:00 before doing it Not sure why your kick is so slow Just Guessing it could be a combination of: 1) poor technique, 2) poor ankle foot flexibility, 3) poor conditioning, 4) you firmly believe that you are a slow kicker 5) a poor push off 6) less than ideal body proportions, small feet, & 7) the suit you wore It might help you to have someone watch you underwater while you kick and offer you suggestions on how to improve I also suggest you add to your Faster Kicking Training: 4 x 25 k where you push off hard & kick all out for half a length then kick easy with perfect form to the wall rest 45 seconds on the wall then do the next one you need to do more very fast kicking If you're ever in Austin Texas, come to a Longhorn masters work out I'll watch you kick and offer you specific suggestions on how to improve your kick. I KNOW you can kick way faster than you ever have before. Work on your kick and you will see dramatic improvement. Do the "Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible" program for 6 weeks then retest your 25 & 50 kick you should go way way faster Report your results in the "Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible" Thread Hope this helps, Ande Hello, I'm new here. I'm 59 and getting back into swimming. I've always had a poor kick. Right now some times are as follows - 25 yd pool, start in water. 100 free 1:20, 100 free, pull only with pull buoy 1:25 50 yd kick with kick board 2:30 I've read on improving my kick and I know several things to work on like ankle flexibility. I'm not really looking for advice (although I'll happily accept it), just an idea if this is really as bad as I think or if it is more common that I think. Do those times look like a REALLY BAD kick? Is it common to get almost no help from your kick? Thanks, bw

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:48:45 GMT

abc, While I guess I understand how you could come to that conclusion, the time is real and I am serious. One purpose was to get an idea of just how bad my kick is and you've certainly provided some of the best feedback on that and I appreciate it. It may further surprise you that I am athletic, and not overweight. At 6' 4", 185lbs there are not too many in my general age group that are in better shape than me - although I'm sure this board is not a representative sample. If you've ever seen the ReMax Long Drive Championships on ESPN, 3 years ago, I was one of 28 qualifiers in the Super Senior Division that competed in the World Championships. An while that has nothing to do with swimming, I am trying to retain some dignity here. Regards, bw

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 08:02:03 GMT

I have a hard time believing this is true. I'm also not sure this is a sincere question. I don't know anyone who kicks a 50 in 2:30. But to answer your question, it is the worst kick I have ever heard of. Since you are not seeking advice, I won't offer any. I don't mean to sound rude, but your kick time is implausible to me.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 07:28:57 GMT

It sounds like your ankles lack flexibility and that can detract from kick speed. My times are similar to yours, a little slower on the swim, my pull is slightly faster than swimming (could be that my turn is better or that my paddles are larger), and my kick is slow although it got a lot faster with compression shorts and some cross-training to increase general leg conditioning. Possibly about 1:30 for 50y now. It used to be more like 2:30. Most of the time I wear fins just to keep from being a lane speed bump.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

orca1946 — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 01:01:07 GMT

Do you go to the gym? A workout including quad extensions & hamstring curls will add to muscle ,that will help in the kick phase. Good luck & don't stop swimming!

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:48:01 GMT

Kick with equal power UP and DOWN. Many bad kickers only kick powerfully in one of these directions. Now that is a good piece of advice! That really helped me improve my SDK tremendously. I need to focus more on that with my flutter kick, though. Some more advice from Ande: Kick from the hip, not the knees. and, Keep the legs long and toes pointed. (Don't overstrain, though. They should be naturally pointed in a relaxed way). If the top of you foot and shin are at 90 degrees you need to work on ankle flexibility. Improving ankle flexibility takes a long time. ( I have been working on it for over a year now but I would say that it has only been recently that I have noticed significant benefits).

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:10:39 GMT

Check out the "Help my flutter kick is horrible" thread. Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible! - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums From what I have picked up and improved my kick with try the following set that Ande put up. 12 x 25 on :45 Do 3 moderate feel the water...distance per kick. Then go all out on 4th and repeat the whole thing twice more. Do it 3 or 4 times a week. Secondly from what I've seen as a coach and instructor of non-swimmers, make sure you're not overly kicking at the knees as this can cause you to basically "idle" in place.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:15:00 GMT

Hey beachwolverine, Something doesn't add up. If you kick really is as horrible as you say, it should actually slow you down and your pull time should be faster than your swim time. It is possible that you are really horrible at kicking with a board. 2:30 for a 50k is too slow if you can swim a 1:20 and pull a 1:25. Are you any faster kicking on your back instead of with a board? All the board does is help you keep your head out of the water while you kick. Ditch it if it is slowing you down. You are kicking an all out 50 right?

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Former Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:07:51 GMT

Hello, I'm new here. I'm 59 and getting back into swimming. I've always had a poor kick. Right now some times are as follows - 25 yd pool, start in water. 100 free 1:20, 100 free, pull only with pull buoy 1:25 50 yd kick with kick board 2:30 I've read on improving my kick and I know several things to work on like ankle flexibility. I'm not really looking for advice (although I'll happily accept it), just an idea if this is really as bad as I think or if it is more common that I think. Do those times look like a REALLY BAD kick? Is it common to get almost no help from your kick? Thanks, bw I've not still the endurance to even finish a 100m free without very very "slow" open turn, yes it's pretty pathetic. I've a very pathetic kick, but I can kick 50m with a board in 1:00... 2:30 for 50y well it's way too slow... a lot of people on this boar can kick 50y close to 0:30. So you technique must to be pretty bad, maybe very inflexible ankles slow you down but something else is wrong.

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Jim Clemmons — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:01:32 GMT

Hello, I'm new here. I'm 59 and getting back into swimming. I've always had a poor kick. Right now some times are as follows - 25 yd pool, start in water. 100 free 1:20, 100 free, pull only with pull buoy 1:25 50 yd kick with kick board 2:30 I've read on improving my kick and I know several things to work on like ankle flexibility. I'm not really looking for advice (although I'll happily accept it), just an idea if this is really as bad as I think or if it is more common that I think. Do those times look like a REALLY BAD kick? Is it common to get almost no help from your kick? Thanks, bw I wouldn't spend a lot of effort worrying about my kick if I was you. Work on it occasionally, do the dryland ankle flexibility exercises, but concentrate on getting in better overall shape. Maybe you're a distance freestyle swimmer so kicking isn't all that important. The great thing is - you only have around 40 more years to work on it all. :D

RE: Pathetic kick. Is this normal?

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 07:49:32 GMT

Something doesn't add up. If you kick really is as horrible as you say, it should actually slow you down and your pull time should be faster than your swim time. It is possible that you are really horrible at kicking with a board. 2:30 for a 50k is too slow if you can swim a 1:20 and pull a 1:25. Are you any faster kicking on your back instead of with a board? All the board does is help you keep your head out of the water while you kick. Ditch it if it is slowing you down. You are kicking an all out 50 right?quote] If you ARE kicking with a kick board, are you doing the infamous Tombstone drill? Try flattening the board out in front, hold it steady on the sides or at the bottom. Face down low or better yet, in the water looking down. Kick with equal power UP and DOWN. Many bad kickers only kick powerfully in one of these directions. Try getting a FINIS swim snorkle to add on an even better piece of "kicking equipment" and creating a beneficial kicking position. Think about the most streamline, powerful kick you can create. Tight, small to start, and UNDERWATER. Then a KICK BUNCH OF 25s Man! With REST! Try 10 repeats with a 15 second rest interval a few times. When that feels easy, add 2 more 25s and drop the interval to a 10 second rest interval. 10 X 25 on 30 seconds 12 X 25 on 25 seconds Add more as you get more fit to kick faster. You can add on repeats and possibly drop the interval you are swimming the set on as you get stronger. I am doing something similar. I can definitely kick on a kick board but have not "trained kicking" in years. Around here the powers that be feel "kicking is a poor use of time for masters swimmers who train 1-hour practices". I stayed over for a second practice to work on my kicking yesterday. (I've got a 200 freestyle goal and need to be able to kick again) Thanks for the advice from coach/swimmers who know, like Nancy, Ande, Paul, and Erik. (most are FINA top 3 ranked but don't talk smak)