Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

Former Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:41:48 GMT

I watched Michael Klueh of Texas go 15:15 for a 1650 (:55.45 pace) this fall. He was just playing around, but he was breathing every stroke the whole way. Oxygen is good.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

knelson — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:57:35 GMT

I will need to average 35 seconds for my 50s obviously but worry that it might be too fast for me. Work on that pace. Maybe every week do a set of 10x50 on :50 and see how close you can get to holding :35 on all ten.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

Patrick W. Brundage — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:41:44 GMT

Shamboola, The 500 is one of the world's most beautiful events, second only, IMHO, to the 400 IM. It's a tricky beast and it gets trickier as you get faster and the race morphs from feeling like a distance event (e.g., 1000) to feeling more like a mid-distance race (e.g., 200). There are also multiple ways to go about swimming this -- watch Floswimming races from college dual meets and you can see multiple strategies. In general, I think that Ande's advice is solid, but, like Blackbeard, I disagree on a few points: #2 BREATHE every stroke: I think this is individual. Like Blackbeard, I like bilateral breathing in a 2-2-3 pattern. #5 SDKs off the wall: I don't think this is necessary to under 5:50. I'm also not yet sure about the oxygen tradeoff over this distance. This is something I will be adding into my 500 this year, but can't comment on its benefits over this distance. Frame of reference: I'm trying to get under 4:40. Here's what I had posted to another thread (forums.usms.org/showthread.php on the 500 (someone looking to go under 5 minutes, so adjust the training ideas appropriately): Splitting: Take a look at results of recent nationals as you'll see a number of people under 5 minutes, but also a number of ways to get there. In my experience, you always want to feel like you are negative splitting the race. In reality, you often don't, but gunning it too hard on the 1st 150 to 200 can be a real killer to keeping up the pace. It's always a very conscious effort on my part to feel like I'm cruising through the 250 mark. The 'moment of truth,' though where you need to learn to swim through the pain is from 300 to 450 yards. I find I can always get excited about picking up the pace after the halfway point and I generally have something left in the tank in the last 50, but if I don't really bear down -- and really train to do this -- during the 300 to 450 mark, I fall off the pace very quickly. Technique: If you look at the elite swimmers, they are motoring the 500 with a 6 beat kick the whole way. You probably don't need that to get under 5 minutes if you can have an efficient, powerful 2 beat that is well-connected with your pull & core rotation. However, if you can build a stronger kick, that will come in real handy during the last half of the race. Training: Do a search on 500 free under the workouts and see if Ande Rasmussen or some of the other prolific posters there have offered up ideas. I'd certainly recommend you work on on getting your "normal" 100 intervals down to 1:10s where you're comfortably going sub-1:05 and be able to do test sets on 1:05, ideally doing more than 5 at a time. At a very macro level, if you're really targeting the 500, I'd train the predominance of your early season training geared towards the 1000 to build endurance and then, as you add in quality, build more speed by training towards a 200 while keeping sufficient distance sets on your aerobic days at low rest, but a pretty good clip.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

aquageek — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:46:14 GMT

I think 4 is better advice than 5 unless you have a very good SDK. There are lots of good distance swimmers who hardly kick off the wall at all. SDK's can certainly be fast, but they also take a toll. For someone already conerned about dying in a 500 I'm not sure this should be a focus point. This is a good point. Of the two fastest guys on our team, one is great at SDK, the other doesn't even bother. The maniacal focus on SDK or bilateral breathing is only worth it if you actually improve.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

knelson — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:37:59 GMT

4) push off the wall hard and glide FAR 5) do 1 or 2 SDKs off each turn I think 4 is better advice than 5 unless you have a very good SDK. There are lots of good distance swimmers who hardly kick off the wall at all. SDK's can certainly be fast, but they also take a toll. For someone already conerned about dying in a 500 I'm not sure this should be a focus point.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

aquageek — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:02:33 GMT

I breathe every stroke, I'm way under 5:50 as are most of my teammates who blow me away on the 500. Bilateral breathing is for the birds and I don't believe it makes a lick of difference if that's how you always train and race.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

Muppet — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:57:36 GMT

I strongly disagree with the recommendation to breathe every stroke (ie every two hand touches). I've seen countless people swimming 4/500s - and longer - breathing every stroke from the time they dive in, and time and time again, they look like they die very early on in their race. Whether they are or aren't, it looks bad from above the pool, and when I look at the splits, they have practically no ability to build at the end of their race. Some of these people have decent times, but I think they could be a lot better with a bit more control. I'd recommend a breathing pattern that the swimmer is comfortable with - something done in practice frequently, something that helps you get in your groove. For the record, I do multiple combinations of 4, 3 and 2 breaths, mostly 3/2, and will only break down and do every stroke if I am flat out beat. Personally, I find that bilateral breathing helps me not only balance out my stroke, but also establish my groove off each wall through those many many turns.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

Former Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:07:49 GMT

Fantastic replies! Here are my thoughts: I can do 3 SDK's that are pretty strong. Any more than that and it would be taking away too much of my oxygen. (To do more SDK's, I will need to train up to that level.) I will need to breathe every two strokes. Although I believe in tri-lateral breathing, I simply cannot do it. It feels like I am breaking my neck. I am too old a dog to teach myself that new trick. I agree that I must hold myself back for that first 250. I have to find a way to duplicate those days in practice when we are doing distance and I find my rhythm and seem to be able to sustain a high level of effort over 300-400 meters. If I start too hard, I am instantly fatigued. If I start slower, I can build up and suddenly crank it up when the need arises. Ultimately, it is about having the confidence to stay at the proper pace per 50 and not get too excited if the other swimmer in the next lane is kicking my butt. I must have faith to be able to swim my race and no one else's. Let's Swim!

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

Former Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:25:00 GMT

I am planiing to swim this in a few weeks. I will be 50 in a few months and want to at least try for the National qualifying time of 5:50. Just curious from those who can swim this race in this time range. I will need to average 35 seconds for my 50s obviously but worry that it might be too fast for me. I can probably swim a 1:02-1:05 for my SCY hundred free but I have a feeling that I will need to be able to swim a 55:00 for my 100 free to be able to maintain that 35 per 50 pace. If you have done this, what is your hundred free time? What is your race strategy? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Rob You have had some very good comments all of which I will use. The only thing is I would swim it in a meet or have someone time you off the block and pretend you're in a meet either way. Take down your splits you will see where you stand and things will be a lot clearer. Hope this helps. -Julia

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

Former Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:42:33 GMT

Andy and Bill, Very helpful comments. I find that my biggest enemy is going out too fast. If I do, I get too tired and shorten my strokes and never find that nice tempo. If I can hold myself back just enough, it makes a big difference. Even going 1-2 seconds slower for a 50 can make a huge difference for me in the long run. And yes, I will definitely think of it as 10 50s. Rob

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

ourswimmer — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:25:28 GMT

I can probably swim a 1:02-1:05 for my SCY hundred free but I have a feeling that I will need to be able to swim a 55:00 for my 100 free to be able to maintain that 35 per 50 pace. Oh, not at all. You just need to be able to maintain. Ande's advice about how to strategize it is just right, especially the advice to breathe every stroke and to work the walls. I usually go 1:00-1:01 for the 100 free, never in my life under 1:00. My best (adult) 500 time is 5:42.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

SLOmmafan — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 05:46:57 GMT

I have found that I can generally hold 10 seconds slower than my 100 y free time in a 500 y (per 100 y). In other words, I used to do a sprint 100 y free around a 49-50 seconds, and could hold right at one minute per 100 y, my fastest time was a 5:00.00 approx. Being a bit out of shape, I find that number closer to about 12 seconds slower. I find doing 5x100y free on a fast interval (around 1:10-1:15) was generally beneficial in getting me ready for a 500 y.

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

ande — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:54:26 GMT

think of the 500 as ten 50's the best way to race a 500 is: 1) swim the first 50 easier than you think you should 2) BREATHE every stroke 3) work your turns 4) push off the wall hard and glide FAR 5) do 1 or 2 SDKs off each turn 6) hold 50's 2 - 8 very even, pick it up on #9 then sprint #10 with everything you have, your 100's should be pretty even, your 250 splits should be pretty close, -2 to 3 sec apart is correct, 4 - 6 is OK, 6 - 9 means you went out too hard 10 or more means you died 7) Train hard and far so you're well conditioned 8) work on speed too you're swimming less than 6 minutes 9) wear a speedy suit I've written more in Swim Faster Faster Ande I am planiing to swim this in a few weeks. I will be 50 in a few months and want to at least try for the National qualifying time of 5:50. Just curious from those who can swim this race in this time range. I will need to average 35 seconds for my 50s obviously but worry that it might be too fast for me. I can probably swim a 1:02-1:05 for my SCY hundred free but I have a feeling that I will need to be able to swim a 55:00 for my 100 free to be able to maintain that 35 per 50 pace. If you have done this, what is your hundred free time? What is your race strategy? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Rob

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

BillS — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:26:19 GMT

I'm 48. I swam a 5:58 a year ago that looked like this: Splits Leg Cumulative Subtractive 1 33.47 33.47 2 1:09.66 36.19 3 1:46.29 36.63 4 2:23.34 37.05 5 3:00.48 37.14 6 3:37.34 36.86 7 4:13.94 36.60 8 4:49.96 36.02 9 5:25.86 35.90 10 5:58.64 32.78 I'm not a distance swimmer, and this was the second time I swam the 500. I used it as either a warm-up or cool-down (can't recall which) because my meet focus event was the 200 free, and basically just cruised along. I swam a just under 57 100 at the same meet, and a 25.3 50 to give you an idea of my speed at that time. You'll need to shave about a second off each of my 50 splits to hit your goal, which shouldn't be too tough. I went out way too easy, as you can tell from the last 50. If you're a sprinter, I'd look for about a 1:05 (31/34) opening 100 and try and hang on from there. If you're more of a distance guy, maybe open more slowly and try and flat or negative split. If I were going to train for this event, I'd try some broken swims in practice to get a feel for the sub-1:10 pace, or at least 5 x 100 on 10 - 20 rest trying to hold a steady pace at right on or under the 1:10. Good luck!

RE: Swimming 500 Free SCY in 5:50 or less.

aquageek — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 02:54:42 GMT

Get someone to pace you as they count. That will help. If you take your first 100 out in :55 you are sure to fail.