Care To Comment on My Stroke?

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:40:20 GMT

The Pinky is very important at afternoon tea at the Empress Hotel in Victoria. If you do not hold the pinky in the right position you would be considered uncuth.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

taruky — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:44:44 GMT

The Pinky is very important at afternoon tea at the Empress Hotel in Victoria. If you do not hold the pinky in the right position you would be considered uncuth. Got it. I will work on swimming more politely, lol.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

funkyfish — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:02:24 GMT

Does anyone know what the significance of the pinky is in the catch? I saw a video with Kara Lynn Joyce where she said she flares her pinky out just prior to catching and I didn't really understand why. I know that people sometimes talk about pitch in terms of pinky up or down, but what is flaring the pinky out about? Better manners? Etiquette? More fancy? Sorry, couldn't resist :bouncing:

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

taruky — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 02:54:58 GMT

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

pwolf66 — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:16:03 GMT

For breathing, it's about making the action of taking a breath as efficient and as smooth as possible. If you can breathe every stroke and not have it impact your form, then that is a HUGE advantage (ala Phelps, Lezak, etc.) but it's getting it to that point that requires a huge commitment.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

rtodd — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:46:22 GMT

those who breathe nearly every stroke (e.g., Jason Lezak) and Phelps.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:05:38 GMT

Best of luck, sorry if this is too long winded. No need to apologize for that great post ! thank you very helpful :)

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Patrick W. Brundage — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:50:02 GMT

Hi, all the other swim books i have read - Janet Evans, for example, all recommend alternate breathing, or at the very least swim equal amounts on both sides. I know sprinters tend to breath on one side, but from what i understand they don't train that way. I read a biography of a couple of swimmers - Natalie Couglain had developed an out of alignment body from single side breathing and when she alternated she made a great improvments . even if i do single side, I still have to breath every stroke when i start to run out of air, so i supsect its more of a body position thing, since it doesn't happen with a pull buoy I'm a BIG fan of alternate side breathing. For me, it helps balance out my stroke. Most of the time, I alternate in a 2-2-3 pattern (e.g., breathe left, breathe left, 3 strokes, breathe right ... then repeat). Sometimes, I will alternate sides by lap. I think it also depends on the distance you're swimming and if you're racing. I will admit that, when racing, I tend to breathe to one side when I'm sprinting (e.g., 50-100), but use the alternate breathing approach on the longer races. I think you can find examples of elite swimmers that do both single side and bilateral breathing. In addition, you can find examples of sprinters who breathe very little and those who breathe nearly every stroke (e.g., Jason Lezak). I'm sure a lot of the ultimate decision is swimmer specific.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:35:11 GMT

mcarm: Your stroke is not bad for 3-months of swimming. You might check out http://www.h2oustonswims.org/ that article was very helpful- thanks! Well tonight I am going to the pool to try some of this stuff out. Thanks everyone for your input!

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:54:36 GMT

silly reason they always go with alternate side breathing... And please pick a side for your breathing - that's why you run out of air... Hi, all the other swim books i have read - Janet Evans, for example, all recommend alternate breathing, or at the very least swim equal amounts on both sides. I know sprinters tend to breath on one side, but from what i understand they don't train that way. I read a biography of a couple of swimmers - Natalie Couglain had developed an out of alignment body from single side breathing and when she alternated she made a great improvments . even if i do single side, I still have to breath every stroke when i start to run out of air, so i supsect its more of a body position thing, since it doesn't happen with a pull buoy Perhaps its different fro different body types and temperaments. geochuck why? pwbrundage i found that fins and pull buoys soon became addictive so i recently reduced them to about 10% of my work out. I did find fins very helpful for getting my breathing and body roll down - because i was able to maintain a decent speed. I still use them for dolphin kicking facing up across the pool because I can't do it otherwise.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:03:55 GMT

Ouch, dare I comment? Throw away the book or DVD that you are learning from.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:13:17 GMT

You can always spot a TI swimmer - you always look like you are swimming in slow motion and for some silly reason they always go with alternate side breathing... Besides the arm entry, you have to fix the over rotation. - swim 25s Free with a good kick and do NOT rotate your hips at all - allow all your rotation to come from your upper body. - swim 25s Free with a splashing kick (all of the kicks not just a few), because you can't splash if you over rotate your hips. And please pick a side for your breathing - that's why you run out of air...

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

taruky — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:16:41 GMT

Mcarm, I'm not nearly as experienced as most of the swimmers here, but I can tell you I've improved tremendously over the past 9 months or so. There's been much trial and error and a lot of money spent on videos :laugh2:. Let me see if I can give you some ideas that helped me. 1. Breathing. I agree with what has been pointed out about your breathing. Practice strokes where you turn your head with the body uproll but not all the way, i.e. you are not breathing but rather catching a glance of how close you really are to the surface and how much farther you would have to go to get air. Practice that while keeping the head horizontal, i.e parallel to the bottom of the pool (not looking up). Then, practice some strokes where you still don't breath but turn a little more until you feel your mouth and only one goggle out of the water. This gives you a chance to practice keeping the head horizontal and knowing how far to turn, without swallowing a mouthful of water. It really helped me orient myself better when breathing, especially to my weak (right) side. 2. Recovery. Your left arm recovery is very flat. I would practice the arm, hand, and fingertip drag drills. I know they teach this in TI. These drag drills really give you an idea of body position/rotation and arm position, which helps you even out the stroke (as well as getting the elbows higher on recovery). 3. Catch. The arms are slipping in the water, i.e. I'm pretty sure I'm seeing the forearm dragging behind the elbow on the pull. That tells me that the forearm is not pointing to the bottom of the pool and so it is not being used as an effective paddle. This is something that will take some time to improve. Here's what I would advise, though. When you extend your arm, try to rotate your upper arm internally (left arm clockwise, right arm counterclockwise). Try to do this without also rotating the hand, i.e keeping the hand parallel to the bottom. This gets your elbow pointing to the side or upward. Then when you flex your elbow to initiate the catch, the forearm and hand will pivot downward. A neat little dryland drill I read about really helped me. Stand facing a wall (close). Take one hand, put the palm against the wall at shoulder width, then slide the arm upward in a straight line (keeping slight pressure on the palm). As you get to full extension, rotate your body a little to get that extra reach AND start to internally rotate your upper arm. The wall will keep your hand from rotating with the upper arm. Then, keeping the elbow fixed at the same height (pivot point), slide the palm downward while pushing against the wall until the forearm is at a 90 degree angle to the wall. This helps to replicate the feel of the proper arm extension and front end of the catch. Once you have that paddle in place, you use the lats to pull with power. 4. Timing. I noticed that sometimes, especially during breaths, your pull arm is already way behind the shoulders at the point where your body is flat. What I mean is that during the second half of your rotation (uproll), you have no more water to hold onto. This uproll should be a significant part of your propulsion. At the point where you are flat your elbow should be at approximately shoulder level. So your initial downroll includes the catch and a little of the pull, and your uproll should include a large portion of the pull. I found this youtube video which I think has some pretty good 3D animations of Ian Thorpe showing this. ; www.youtube.com/watch Best of luck, sorry if this is too long winded.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:27:44 GMT

Paddles with fins to start...then I want to get you on the bungee cord. I'm still recovering from the wounds of stretch cords snapping back at me during my college days. Fortunately, Eddie generally kept us distance guys away from those most of the time. Paddles with fins?? Damn, it's hard enough to get up in the morning and remember my goggles, suit and water bottle. Now I gotta lug more equipment?

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

ourswimmer — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 06:35:24 GMT

WIth the rolling too far.. I know I am doing it but I just keep doing it! You should be able to see under the water with one eye while your head is turned to breathe, at least if the pool is calm. Try swimming slowly while concentrating on keeping one goggle under when you breathe. Figure out how to make that work and you will figure out how to keep your head in control (physically, at least).

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Paul Smith — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:21:50 GMT

Full disclosure: I'm one of the more "anti-equipment" voices on these forums. I almost never use a kickboard either because I think it puts you in a body position that is different enough from a swimming position. This will soon be changing if I have any say in it! Good advice for the new guy...but in your case Patrick you are highly conditioned and have great technique, there are only so many days/hours/yards you can put in the water and to get you up a notch or two we need to build your strength. Paddles with fins to start...then I want to get you on the bungee cord.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:39:31 GMT

Oh yes, definitely! I can swim 20 laps straight with a pull buoy and paddles, but free, I have to catch my breath every lap or two. My :2cents:: for the time being, try to do most of your swimming without buoy or paddles. The buoy artificially allows you to ride higher in the water and the paddles might mask some weakness in your pull. Both distort your stroke. Full disclosure: I'm one of the more "anti-equipment" voices on these forums. I almost never use a kickboard either because I think it puts you in a body position that is different enough from a swimming position.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:57:05 GMT

. Your second lap is 2-3 more strokes than your first--that would indicate you are fighting balance and breathing issues. Good luck. MJM Oh yes, definitely! I can swim 20 laps straight with a pull buoy and paddles, but free, I have to catch my breath every lap or two.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:50:36 GMT

mcarm: Your stroke is not bad for 3-months of swimming. You might check out http://www.h2oustonswims.org/ Look for the article: What floats yer boat? by Mr. E. Hines The superman glide with a slice of kickboard might be just what you need to help fix your balance, breathing and slightly "schlumpy" swim posture. Your second lap is 2-3 more strokes than your first--that would indicate you are fighting balance and breathing issues. Good luck. MJM

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:00:51 GMT

...thanks for your kind responses . I am going to try entering the hand a bit later. and pulling wider with a higher elbow. WIth the rolling too far.. I know I am doing it but I just keep doing it! One book I am just beginning 'Breakthrough Swimming" and might try some of the exercises in there. One thing that really intrigues me about swimming is the 'feel' for the water, - water density is great feedback!. Sometimes it seems overwhelming then I read stuff like this: blog.wired.com/.../great-swimmers.html Great Swimmers Transcend Science What's her secret? At some level, it's almost mystical: beyond the ability of experts in biomechanics and fluid dynamics to explain. From a 2004 New Yorker profile, one which explains that no human-designed object swims as well as a fish, that simulating the motion of a swimmer is as computationally demanding as a model of galaxy formation, and that swimmers like Coughlin literally possess a "heightened physical perception of the water around the body":One of the video clips that Mittal is currently feeding into his simulation program is of Natalie Coughlin, sinuous as a ribbon, underwater dolphin-kicking seventeen times in a row down the length of a pool. Should it ultimately prove useful as a training aid, one result of this research might be computer-calculated instructions for the mechanically perfect stroke, the one that science has determined will produce the lowest turbulence, the optimal arrangement of invisible eddies, the swiftest route through the water. But the things that a computer is least equipped to factor in-drive, vulnerability, the mysterious relationship between racer and water-are the things that Coughlin makes swimming people talk about. "It's like listening to Yo-Yo Ma," Boomer says. As computer programs and processors become more powerful, scientists will someday be able to explain Natalie Coughlin and Michael Phelps. But for now, just enjoy them. though I am eager to get my stroke better, I guess if super computers haven't figured out yet, I should be a little more patient with myself :)

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:15:38 GMT

I think your stroke looks very nice for someone with roughly 3 months experience. You're keeping your body level in the water and you're not wiggling at the hips--that's good! Those are sometimes the hardest parts to master. I agree that your hands enter way to close to your head. In part, I think that's due to the "mail slot entry" that TI teaches. You do want to enter your hand smoothly, just work on moving the entry out farther (forward) from your head. You already recognize that you're rolling too far when you breathe. One positive takaway is that you're keeping your body level when you breathe. As you work on a less exagerated roll, don't lose that level position--don't let your hips/feet sink.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Former Member — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 07:52:07 GMT

I have no quarrel with TI per se. It has its place for many people. A few observations: 1. When you breathe, especially left, you look at the sky. No need to turn your head anymore than required to get a clean breath of air. Don't look up, look to the side. If you do this to give you more time to breathe perhaps you are not exhaling enough before your mouth clears the water. 2. Your right hand enters the water way too close to your head. Then you extend the hand underwater forward before you begin your pull. Extending your hand causes "push drag" which means you are pushing water against the direction you are going. I suggest extending your reach before the hand enters the water. 3. I think your body position, elbows, are really pretty good. 4. I don't think your kick is by any means awful. Many experienced swimmers kick only enough to keep their legs from sinking - especially in practice and for longer swims. This is probably not the right thing for racing shorter races. You can do what I have heard called the 90/10 drill which means attempt to make 90% of your propulsion happen with your legs. That will get you used to the feeling of a strong rapid kick. If you want to compare to some elite swimmers - I suggest going to Youtube and search for "Popov freestyle" or "Ian Thorpe freestyle" or "Grant Hackett freestyle".

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Doug Adamavich — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:33:55 GMT

There is definitely something "extra" about the "feel for water" that separates a lot of great swimmers from good swimmers. I would hazard to guess that most swimmers at the elite level have some sensitivity somehow that enables them a better feel. That is VERY true, feel is something that you either have or lack. It can be tweaked somewhat but I believe it is an attribute you are born with. I liken it to the incredible hand-eye coordination that baseball players have or the amazing balance gymnasts have...you get it from your genes. I think it's also interesting that you can read many profiles of elite swimmers who make reference to their klutziness on land (Phelps being one of them). I swam with some fairly elite guys in my time and very few of them were also good "land athletes." As an example of this, in college when the men's swim & dive team played frisbee football on Fridays, a key success factor in winning was maximizing the number of DIVERS on your team ... as they actually possessed a much better "feel for the land" than the majority of swimmers. BAHAHAHAHAHA, that is so true! In college, our team (both men's and women's) would go off-campus to play Beer Ball. A few of us could hit, run, and catch but it was rather comical to watch. Add a lot of (cheap) beer to the mix and...well, you get the picture. I will admit though, a few of us could do well with the keg toss after we drank it dry... Very true though about swimmers being klutzy on land. I have the scars from mountain biking and rollerblading to prove it!

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:12:57 GMT

... One thing that really intrigues me about swimming is the 'feel' for the water, - water density is great feedback!. Sometimes it seems overwhelming then I read stuff like this: ... though I am eager to get my stroke better, I guess if super computers haven't figured out yet, I should be a little more patient with myself :) I remember when I was an age group swimmer one of our coaches was doing (I believe) a graduate project trying to see if there was a relationship between finger tip sensitivity and speed. I was probably around 10 or 11 at the time, so all I recall was a lot of finger tip pricks with pins. I doubt anything came of it. There is definitely something "extra" about the "feel for water" that separates a lot of great swimmers from good swimmers. I would hazard to guess that most swimmers at the elite level have some sensitivity somehow that enables them a better feel. I think it's also interesting that you can read many profiles of elite swimmers who make reference to their klutziness on land (Phelps being one of them). I swam with some fairly elite guys in my time and very few of them were also good "land athletes." As an example of this, in college when the men's swim & dive team played frisbee football on Fridays, a key success factor in winning was maximizing the number of DIVERS on your team ... as they actually possessed a much better "feel for the land" than the majority of swimmers.

RE: Care To Comment on My Stroke?

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:28:53 GMT

IMHO, TI is not only a great place to start, but offers you a lifetime of technique tips. Fundamentally, as well, most of the techniques you see being focal points in TI are going to be focal points under other technique programs. Thanks for the video. It would be wonderful if you had some underwater shots (but I know that's a whole different level of technology investment). I'll try to look at this again, but it appeared to me that there are some things you can work on under the water: Start your pull with your hand closer to the surface: you do what a lot of us do (myself included) in that while your pulling arm is extended, it drifts downward before you start your pull. Try when it is extended to hold it up nearer to the surface as you'll be able to access a stronger part of your back when pulling and ... Keep the elbow high underwater through the pull: a byproduct of letting the hand drift down is that you (& most of us) don't then pull with as high an elbow. Like Dan said, if you watch Olympian freestylers swim (esp. the distance guys like Larsen Jensen), you'll see their elbows just barely under the surface ... Pull wider: this is where I'd like to see underwater video, but it appears to me that your pull is under your body and, possibly, crossing the center line of your body. Again, the best freestylers will have a pull that is just outside your body. Check out these beautiful: 17 seconds of Ian Thorpe: au.truveo.com/.../1702816158 15 seconds of Larsen Jensen: www.youtube.com/watch