Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:46:21 GMT

Well, if we are going down this road, what about using science to help understand body position in the water? Changing our body positions in the water is probably a greater reduction in drag than the suits. Going from somewhat of an uphill position to a position that is more inline with the water is a huge drag reduction.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:14:27 GMT

Quote from Bareblar02 “Suits are intended to increase the hydrodynamic characteristics of your body's shape, cutting out sharp edges and such to reduce drag, effectively just altering your body's form. Flippers and Paddles are both extensions, they are not alterations of an existing area of the body (excluding calling them feet and hands), they are longer and wider than any human hand”. The above quote shows how the debate over paddles & flippers VS tech suits is an example of a “Making distinctions without differences” and "Slicing & dicing and bending the rules". If paddles and flippers are considered an addition to the swimmer’s body, then a tech suit is also an addition –just with a different function of reducing drag by altering and modifying the swimmer’s personal body form and also increasing bouyancy. This concept could (and already is) also being carried to its illogical extreme. In the process of "pushing the envelope" by allowing the use of suits with enhanced streamlining and bouyancy characteristics, there is the risk that world's records could be nullified or voided because of all the variables involved. As I’ve said until I’m blue in the face, if FINA would have never "twisted and contorted the rules like a pretzel" and allowed the use of previously prohibited “personally applied devices or substances”, this huge tornado of a debate would have never developed. :agree: Dolphin 2

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:30:33 GMT

I think more than anything it is a matter of simple principle, a suit is a necessity to make the sport decent, if you'd rather have olympic records set in the nude, I'm sure they have a league for that. Suits are intended to increase the hydrodynamic characteristics of your body's shape, cutting out sharp edges and such to reduce drag, effectively just altering your body's form. Flippers and Paddles are both extensions, they are not alterations of an existing area of the body (excluding calling them feet and hands), they are longer and wider than any human hand. If flippers and paddles were allowed for use in competition, the goal would be to have the largest peripherals, rather than the best form. The disparity between 'haves' and 'have-nots' in terms of suits would grow even further since most people would be unable to afford the cleancut compound that a fast flipper is made out of and thus, world records would shoot downward and the average swimmer would stay in place. If flippers were to be legalized, records would have to be marked with an asterisk to differentiate a fin run from a regular run as I'm sure the world record would fall by AT LEAST ten seconds. I also think that if fins were legalized many strokes would have to be altered, the 15 yard rule on the Backstroke would have to be removed because it would almost be impossible to NOT go past it even with a below average kick. What adding peripherals and tools would do to swimming would make it more about a strong kick than ever, Mr. Phelps would very much enjoy setting new records by utilizing a pair of fins intended to increase the force delivered by a single dolphin kick. I think the only stroke that would be largely unaffected would be the Breaststroke, aside from paddles tools are not much assistance in swimming. I understand the discrepancy here but it's simply unreasonable to compare a specialized suit to flippers and paddles. There is no way a suit will EVER deliver the same effects as a fin. Thanks, Bare. :)

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

pwolf66 — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:51:59 GMT

These arguments are meaningless for D2. He just doesn't seem to understand the concept of 'enhancement' versus 'addition'. Better swim suits are an enhancement, flippers and/or paddles are additions. But additions in the sense of increasing the application of force, rather than reducing the effect of drag (swim caps) or reducing potentially harmful conditions (goggles).

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Paul Smith — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:50:21 GMT

(BTW, I am no faster with paddles than without. The increase in DPS is almost exactly compensated by the decrease in turnover.) Chris...I find the same thing when I use the TYR paddles which I almost always use along with a snorkel (and fins at times) for longer recovery/aerobic swims. If swimmers can pull substantially faster with paddles like this than without I usually explain to them that they most likely have a tendeancy to drop their elbow when swimming which the paddles will correct for...and that they will most likely never achieve substantial break throughs in their times if they keep pull everything (same for fin addicts). I do however ues a small set of the old square paddles with holes in them and smaller fins for power work...something I picked up from Nick Brunelli years ago. The fins allow race speeds and elevae the body position, the smaller paddles allow fast turnover the combination is in my opinion far better resistance training than one can get in the gym. Also a lot of "fun" to use the same set-up with power racks, bungee's and/or parachutes. As for FINA allowing speed suits and not fins and paddles...I'm all for having an "open" division that allows anything to be used if thats what you want...why don't you petition them and try and get it going Dolphin2?

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

SLOmmafan — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:33:17 GMT

I would be curious to see what various other technical improvements regarding drag reduction (swim cap anyone) have done over the years. Take the introduction of the swim cap and goggles - how much did drag reduction (and increased visibility) help improve swim times at the elite level. Did the swim community at the time (1970's??) have similar objections to the use of these items in swim competitions? I wouldn't know as these items have always been around while I have been swimming. In similar fashion, the newest generation of swimmers have always had some sort of tech suit (even first generation "fast-skins" and such) when they have been involved in the sport.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:22:24 GMT

Quote from Bareblar02 “Suits are intended to increase the hydrodynamic characteristics of your body's shape, cutting out sharp edges and such to reduce drag, effectively just altering your body's form. Flippers and Paddles are both extensions, they are not alterations of an existing area of the body (excluding calling them feet and hands), they are longer and wider than any human hand”. The above quote shows how the debate over paddles & flippers VS tech suits is an example of a “Making distinctions without differences” and "Slicing & dicing and bending the rules". If paddles and flippers are considered an addition to the swimmer’s body, then a tech suit is also an addition –just with a different function of reducing drag by altering and modifying the swimmer’s personal body form and also increasing bouyancy. This concept could (and already is) also being carried to its illogical extreme. In the process of "pushing the envelope" by allowing the use of suits with enhanced streamlining and bouyancy characteristics, there is the risk that world's records could be nullified or voided because of all the variables involved. As I’ve said until I’m blue in the face, FINA should have never "twisted and contorted the rules like a pretzel" against the use of ANY “personally applied devices or substances” and this huge tornado of a debate would have never developed. :agree: Dolphin 2 Taking your argument to its illogical extreme (not a very long journey), all suits should be banned, including briefs, because they are all "additions." (BTW, I am no faster with paddles than without. The increase in DPS is almost exactly compensated by the decrease in turnover.)

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

jim thornton — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:46:17 GMT

That's old news...the latest was suffered from taking too many spin classes...and I'll leave it at that....but will say he's a wuss. Paul, I don't know your alter ego, but it sounds like he has done some pretty heavy duty damage to his pudendal nerves, which is enough to make anybody sulk for awhile in a dark closet. I know that when we had our pug Lefty neutered, it took him a whole day to perk back up. As far as this paddles and flippers debate goes, I would like to propose a solution that has some historical resonance to it for long time posters on this thread. I propose that USMS grant a special exception to any swimmers who learned how to swim competitively as adults, which, as we know, causes something of a disadvantage. Such swimmers should be allowed to compete with fins and paddles, the size of which shall be determined by a complex number of calculations that include overall body size and months after puberty at which said individual first learned the competitive strokes. We might even consider adding a special category for our Eastern European adult-onset swimming friends. Mr. or Ms. Dolphin 2, do you fall into this category? Send us your dimensions plus the months after puberty you began competitive swimming, and we can use you as a test case for the new order.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

aztimm — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:37:40 GMT

Timm, I've swam with you a number of times and have noticed the classic "elbow" drop and hip over-rotation when your not using paddles...this explains why your faster with the gear. The work needed is finding the same angle of attack on your catch that the paddles overcompensate for...one thing I'd suggest is taking the wrist straps off (it will force you to use much better technique because if you don't they'll fly off)...I would also encourage you to use them a little bit every workout but slow down and pay attention to what is happening vs. use them for speed. Not to diss the thread topic, but it seems very tired....been there, done that a million times....so I'll be selfish and respond to Paul. Hey Paul, thanks for the tips. I did around a 400 loosen down swim after my run/abs workout at the gym tonight. Right after I started, I thought of your comments, and really tried to get my elbows high. The people in the hot tub must have thought I was throwing my arms out or something. I wished I had brought my paddles (they were in my car), but since I was already violating the, "No flip turns," sign, that may have been pushing it. I'll try the paddles/no wrist straps at workout tomorrow. I may get to the noon or evening workout at ASU on Thurs, are you coaching either?

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:22:58 GMT

If swimmers can pull substantially faster with paddles like this than without I usually explain to them that they most likely have a tendeancy to drop their elbow when swimming which the paddles will correct for...and that they will most likely never achieve substantial break throughs in their times if they keep pull everything (same for fin addicts)... fins allow race speeds and elevate the body position... I've been using fins, snorkel and paddles (finger loops only) for varying reasons connected to form and mechanics. My Alpha fins float me nicely and I pull way faster with them with or without paddles. I think there is also a decent "tail fin action" speed bonus that is amplified with good rotation... my :2cents:

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:18:20 GMT

I like my fins for pulling. I like my paddles for finding slippage and splashy entry...that's about it. Goggles may have revolutionised the sport but at $13 for 3 pairs at costco...it's not quite the $ hit as a top suit. That said IDC about whether there are suits at masters meets...if grown adults want to spend thousands a year to delude themselves about how fast/efficient they are, then that is their call. I do think suits should be restricted for children and young adults so that the less fortunate may still be able to play on a level surface...although likelihood is if the parents can pay for swim team, they can probably afford a suit...but is it a necessary thing to have in age group? Yes, life is not fair, life is hard, life kicks you in the groin many, many times...life always wins. However, sometimes we can act to help remedy situations where unfairness may exist. Soup kitchens, battered womens shelters, no euthanising animal pounds, or maybe by not using PEDs in a sport/league without testing to come expose you (COUGH, COUGH)... :bolt:

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:06:44 GMT

about what? oh yeah, the state of men's college swimming. oh noes....that's a blatant instigation...that's my job!

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Allen Stark — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:15:23 GMT

D-2: It's fine with me for you to make comments,it's a free country(mostly.) I think that you should note that while some people share your views on suits,no one yet has shared your views on paddles and fins(except for those who say a separate division is OK.)I think this really qualifies as a:dedhorse:.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:52:20 GMT

Sigh Really confused how you can compare the first with the others that you have listed but in every 'basic' issue you mention with the exception of the first one, there can be a measurable direct or indirect impact on YOU. In the case of tech suits you just seem to either a) not get it or b) not care that there is NO measurable impact on you. You have stated many times that you a) don't compete, b) don't have an interest in competing, c) don't train seriously for swimming d) don't have an interest in training seriously for swimming and e) have only worn a tech suit once (not sure if that was even in the water). So I am once more giving you the chance to answer (but as in the past you will probably ignore) the simple question 'why do you care?' I know why I care and I know why a lot of people here care, both in favor of the suits and against them but I just don't get why you care so much. There is no meaningful effect on your life if someone wears one or not. So, please, just answer the question. It's a simple one but it's one that you continue to avoid responding to. Hey Pwolf66: My immediate comment regarding your post is please use paragraph spacing (by pressing the ENTER key twice) instead of "running on" all your different statements in one block of text. First, I am not the only person (either swimmer or nonswimmer) who has given an opinion on this subject -mainly whether FINA's approval of tech suits is a highly discriminate form of allowing mechanically aided swimming devices. Furthermore, why does a person have to actually be a competetive swimmer to be qualified to have an opinion on this volitile subject? Most people who watch football, basketball, or baseball aren't players either, but they certainly have strong opinions. Just listen to the "chatter around the water cooler" on a morning after a game and you'll hear plenty of "Monday morning quarterbacking". Finally, the USMS board can get pretty boring without a hulaballoo about something so my comments do have the socially redeeming value of livening things up. :banana: Dolphin 2

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:54:14 GMT

Anyone who competed in the "paper suit" era likely remembers that those briefs were both indecent and uncomfortable. And, they cost extra because they were made of special material purported to be faster than the old nylon/lycra/whatever. Guess we should put asterisks next to those records from the late 80s and 90s after all. Not to mention that you were lucky to get through one meet before they were completely useless

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:46:09 GMT

Hey Chris In the past, briefs were worn just so the swimmers weren't arrested for "Indecent Exposure" and to provide more comfort in the water -not as a speed enhancer. Dolphin 2 Anyone who competed in the "paper suit" era likely remembers that those briefs were both indecent and uncomfortable. And, they cost extra because they were made of special material purported to be faster than the old nylon/lycra/whatever. Guess we should put asterisks next to those records from the late 80s and 90s after all.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:35:30 GMT

Dogggonnnit, it looks like I ignited another inferno again. I don't know why people get so bent out of shape about others who are simply offering their opinion on such a basic issue. :confused: However I must admit that the Suit technology VS no Suit technology debate is getting to be like Democrat VS Republican, Liberal VS Conservative, Gun control VS no Gun control, or Cathloic VS Protestant. :blah: I guess I should look at the bright side: At least I haven't been hit with a barrage of rockets from the other side ---yet. :bolt: Dolphin 2

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:06:57 GMT

Hey Chris FINA is losing its credibility ... Dolphin 2 Which is more than you have ever had on the issues of competitive swimming. At least twice you have been asked and at least twice you have ignored the question of "why do you care?" These suits don't have anything to do with rec/fitness/P.E. swimming, which is about all you claim to do. So, if you don't compete or plan too, then why do you keep making silly statements about the suits or even care about them? Goggles are more of an aid to fast swimming than the tech suits. Goggles have been said to have totally changed the sport. They were more radical than the tech suits, yet we don't have an urge to ban them.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:55:53 GMT

Everything you've ever said about tech suits applies to swim caps: they are not necessary for modesty, they are an "addition," they increase performance by decreasing drag, they are buoyant b/c they trap air, and some morally questionable swimmers actually wear two of them. So where is the outrage? Honestly, this is tiring, I don't think you've said anything new for months (or, indeed, ever posted on any other subject in this forum). As far as I can tell, you have absolutely no stake in this. Why in the world do you persist? Hey Chris I brought the subject up again because of an article in the USMS magazine on the use of paddles and increased speed and I just see the tech suit issue as being such a paradoxical ideology. Even if I never make another post, the issue will still "persist" and many others agree with me that the suit issue is getting out of control and FINA is losing its credibility as being a "governing body" for swimming rules. Dolphin 2

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Paul Smith — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:55:28 GMT

Boy, when Pablo calls you a wuss, it must be bad. That's like Michael Jackson telling someone they have gone overboard on the plastic surgery. Having just purchased yet another pair of spin class shoes I find this insult about spinners to be insulting. Viva la stationary bike! Geek...I think John's dark little broom closet that he sits in and pouts for hours a day has an extra seat...why don't you give him a call and maybe he'll let you tell him all about the pain of dropping to #2 (actually have to say it might have gone as far as #3 or #4)

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

aquageek — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:39:55 GMT

That's old news...the latest was suffered from taking too many spin classes...and I'll leave it at that....but will say he's a wuss. Boy, when Pablo calls you a wuss, it must be bad. That's like Michael Jackson telling someone they have gone overboard on the plastic surgery. Having just purchased yet another pair of spin class shoes I find this insult about spinners to be insulting. Viva la stationary bike!

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Paul Smith — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:29:15 GMT

John's in a snit from a shoulder injury, no? That's old news...the latest was suffered from taking too many spin classes...and I'll leave it at that....but will say he's a wuss.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Paul Smith — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:27:31 GMT

I must be doing something wrong when I use paddles (which is very sparingly). I've had TYR Catalyst black paddles (size XL) for 5+ years. When I wear them, I can keep up with swimmers in 1-2 lanes faster than where I swim. I'd hazard a guess of 5 sec faster per 100. As I said, I try to use paddles very sparingly; maybe a 200 once a week, or thereabouts. Although I've never had problems, I keep reading on here about shoulder issues, and don't want that to happen to me. Occasionally, we'll have a specific pulling set and I may do 4 x 200 w/paddles. Timm, I've swam with you a number of times and have noticed the classic "elbow" drop and hip over-rotation when your not using paddles...this explains why your faster with the gear. The work needed is finding the same angle of attack on your catch that the paddles overcompensate for...one thing I'd suggest is taking the wrist straps off (it will force you to use much better technique because if you don't they'll fly off)...I would also encourage you to use them a little bit every workout but slow down and pay attention to what is happening vs. use them for speed.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

aztimm — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:18:10 GMT

Chris...I find the same thing when I use the TYR paddles which I almost always use along with a snorkel (and fins at times) for longer recovery/aerobic swims. If swimmers can pull substantially faster with paddles like this than without I usually explain to them that they most likely have a tendeancy to drop their elbow when swimming which the paddles will correct for...and that they will most likely never achieve substantial break throughs in their times if they keep pull everything (same for fin addicts). I must be doing something wrong when I use paddles (which is very sparingly). I've had TYR Catalyst black paddles (size XL) for 5+ years. When I wear them, I can keep up with swimmers in 1-2 lanes faster than where I swim. I'd hazard a guess of 5 sec faster per 100. As I said, I try to use paddles very sparingly; maybe a 200 once a week, or thereabouts. Although I've never had problems, I keep reading on here about shoulder issues, and don't want that to happen to me. Occasionally, we'll have a specific pulling set and I may do 4 x 200 w/paddles.

RE: Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:15:12 GMT

Taking your argument to its illogical extreme (not a very long journey), all suits should be banned, including briefs, because they are all "additions." (BTW, I am no faster with paddles than without. The increase in DPS is almost exactly compensated by the decrease in turnover.) Hey Chris In the past, briefs were worn just so the swimmers weren't arrested for "Indecent Exposure" and to provide more comfort in the water -not as a speed enhancer. In the past, FINA's reasoning was to minimize the effect of the suit -and briefs were logically quite minimal. Now, it's the exact opposite -and about anything goes. Dolphin 2