Is this a good fly tip or not?

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Mookie — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:15:31 GMT

The Nov-Dec 2008 SWIMMER has an excellent article on Fly. The entry and beginning of the pull were among the things covered.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Paul Smith — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:30:42 GMT

Looking down will reassure you that your head position is relaxed. If you want to see the other end of the pool, go ahead and look. The wall isn't moving anywhere, but your butt will be dragging for the time you look. If your recovery and breathing portion is sufficiently aggressive, you can probably get away with rolling up your eyes, but I prefer to go by the lines on the bottom to tell me where I am. The "look down while breathing" is an odd sensation if you are not accustomed to it, but is very efficient. Over the years I have tried many things to improve my butterfly, but core strength and powerful kicking will always be the key. You can have no arms left at all but if your legs can hold out, the race is a thing of beauty. I've found that the "looking down" analogy can be used improperly...I see a number of folks who in an attempt to achive this position are actually tucking their chin to far...which then often leads to an overcorrection the opposite direction when breathing...and the fairly noticaeable head movement up/down that goes with it..and lowers the hips. Sighting as well can be a problem...in general I don;t ever think you should have any head movement to try and "see" what's ahead. If your using a "jutting" motion with your chin coming from a relaxed/neutral head position and only using peripheral vision you shouldn't see more than a couple of feet ahead of you which if done properly will reduce the overall up/down see-saw motion...smooth out the stroke and ultimately produce less fatigue.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

That Guy — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:07:41 GMT

Do you recommend the book at all? Phelps gives good first-hand accounts of Sydney, Athens, Beijing, and other meets that nicely complement what you can find on youtube and such. There's limited description of workouts, sets, technique, and so on. As I said, it's light reading but I enjoyed it.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Former Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:56:23 GMT

I received Phelps' book "No Limits - The Will To Succeed" as a Christmas gift. It's light reading but I enjoyed it. Anyway, he mentioned that he works on keeping his chin down in fly when he breathes. So he might be looking at the wall, but he's not raising his head any higher than it needs to be to breathe. Do you recommend the book at all?

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

That Guy — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:36:00 GMT

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Former Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:36:49 GMT

I definately don't want to lift my head too much. Just don't know if I should focus on "nothing" when my head is out of the water. IMO Phelps is looking at the wall ahead, but I think he has an "experts" only head position. And the one thing that surprised me was that Phelps breathes every stroke, unlike advice given to so many who swim fly. I wonder what a lot of you think about that. He was amazing to watch at the Olympics. Donna

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

rtodd — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:40:28 GMT

OK, I watched all the olympic fly races again and they all noticeably lift their heads to breathe and look virtually straight ahead momentarily before bringing it back down in alignment with their spine. Whether or not they focus on the wall is up for debate, but they certainly could if they wanted.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Former Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 06:29:54 GMT

And the one thing that surprised me was that Phelps breathes every stroke, unlike advice given to so many who swim fly. I wonder what a lot of you think about that. He was amazing to watch at the Olympics. Donna I'm slow but I do best breathing every stroke. I find that my arms drag on the recovery if I don't breathe due to shoulder stiffness. I greatly prefer having the extra air. Butterfly is much easier when I keep my chin in the water and my head in a relaxed neutral position instead of lifting and jutting it forward when breathing. I don't breathe well when my neck is hyperextended, and it tired my upper back too much with no benefit. Another thing I changed was to press the chest down when "landing" from the recovery but to keep the hands closer to the surface on entry. Finally, I learned how to use the lats more and triceps less.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

pwolf66 — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:03:20 GMT

And the one thing that surprised me was that Phelps breathes every stroke, unlike advice given to so many who swim fly. I wonder what a lot of you think about that. He was amazing to watch at the Olympics. Donna He does it because his position in the water is so correct that he can easily breathe every stroke because there is no difference in the level of effort to take a breath versus not. Unlike the rest of us mere mortals. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Former Member — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:17:17 GMT

Oddly enough, I have never had any shoulder problems with butterfly. Perhaps it is the shared stresses that alleviate any injuries, both arms working at once. The entry is with hands about shoulder width with the hands relaxed and thumbs a little down (lower than the rest of the hand, not more than that). Scull out, keeping elbows high and try to press the chest down, as if diving into the stroke. When the hands are in plane with the elbows and shoulders, the thumbs should be pointing at each other and about shoulder width again. Make any sense? Yes. I think I'll have to drill this a bit to build it it. I think I'm doing a bit of a "massive" row from near the top of the water--so there is pressue on the down ward movement. I'll drive my hand down a bit more on entry, and see if it works. The thumb down may be the trick. I think the ache s a symptomn of freestyle aggravation (which I mostly have corrected) and it now gets is susceptible and easily bothered by fly.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

BillS — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:19:32 GMT

Maybe I need to not look forward too then. Anyone want to desribe their had/arm entry. I think I'm pressing down on the water and it's aggravating my shoulder. Best advice I ever got was from a Kerry O'Brien clinic, although I think Dennis Baker says about the same thing at his. Kerry's mantra for the entry is "soft hands". Being new to fly and a rather typical male dork, I tend to tense up and try to muscle the whole pull/recovery cycle, which invariably ends in disaster. Thinking "Soft hands" helps me to avoid that flailing feeling. If you watch Phelps swim, his hands look completely relaxed during the recovery phase. Just settle those hands on top of the water, and let them float down until you start the catch. I think the undulation/kick is providing all of the forward momentum at this point. Yes. I think I'll have to drill this a bit to build it it. I think I'm doing a bit of a "massive" row from near the top of the water--so there is pressue on the down ward movement. I'll drive my hand down a bit more on entry, and see if it works. The thumb down may be the trick. I think the ache s a symptomn of freestyle aggravation (which I mostly have corrected) and it now gets is susceptible and easily bothered by fly. Just testing my multi-quote capabilities here.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Michael Heather — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:23:09 GMT

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

ande — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:13:28 GMT

doesn't matter, you don't need to orient yourself in fly by spotting any object other than the wall for turns and touches. You should train so you automatically swim correct fly. Today, for whatever reason, I made a focused effort to sight the end of the pool, albeit momentarily, during my breath. I think it helped me keep correct orientation and pitch thus helping my body dolphin. I think before I was just looking cross eyed into the water ahead and not really picking the end of the pool as the focus. It was cool seeing the wall "rapidly" approaching. So my question is, should you not look at any discernable thing and zone out looking for the tee, or should you take a conscious peek at the wall on every breath to help keep body orientation? What say you?

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:58:34 GMT

Well, hell has frozen over. I'm going to agree with Michael for the first time ever. :) I never look at the other end of the pool. I might, maybe, roll my eyeballs up once (but not while breathing) about 4-5 strokes from the wall, but that's it. Or, at least that's what I aim to do. Maybe I need to not look forward too then. Anyone want to desribe their had/arm entry. I think I'm pressing down on the water and it's aggravating my shoulder.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:43:50 GMT

I definately don't want to lift my head too much. Just don't know if I should focus on "nothing" when my head is out of the water. IMO Phelps is looking at the wall ahead, but I think he has an "experts" only head position. His chin skims the surface as it rides along that giraffe like neck of his. So perhaps it doesn't affect him in any way (to be looking forward). But even he said...in his 60 minutes interview...he won the 100 fly because Cavic lifted his head up...and he held his down. To paraphrase what he said...any lift of the head is like putting on the water brakes.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:37:01 GMT

Today, for whatever reason, I made a focused effort to sight the end of the pool, albeit momentarily, during my breath. I think it helped me keep correct orientation and pitch thus helping my body dolphin. I think before I was just looking cross eyed into the water ahead and not really picking the end of the pool as the focus. It was cool seeing the wall "rapidly" approaching. So my question is, should you not look at any discernable thing and zone out looking for the tee, or should you take a conscious peek at the wall on every breath to help keep body orientation? What say you? Well, your head is round, and your face and goggles aren't as round. So by that logic, keep your head down. Also, I found it hard to do a no-breath stroke in fly with out looking down. It also seems like your neck would get sore. I say breath every other stroke, and keep your head down when you're not breathing.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:53:08 GMT

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

Michael Heather — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:49:35 GMT

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

rtodd — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:35:45 GMT

Ralph Crocker told me I needed to look down when I breathed and when I didn't breathe. OK, here is solid look down advice.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

elise526 — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:25:27 GMT

Fly is my favorite stroke. When I went to the Auburn Masters Swim Camp, Ralph Crocker told me I needed to look down when I breathed and when I didn't breathe. It is hard to look down when you breathe, but I have found that it seems to help keep me flatter on the water and minimizes the up and down effect.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

rtodd — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:59:19 GMT

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

srcoyote — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:53:24 GMT

My stroke is better if I just focus on lunging forward without lifting my head too much. My kick and stroke follow naturally if I throw my head forward. That said, if you feel faster and can back it up with a time on your fly by sighting, I say go for it.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

rtodd — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:47:33 GMT

No, not picking up the head, but only lifting my eyeballs to take a peak. Good eyeball excersize. Maybe this is not the thing to do. I will need to experiment. It just seemed like when I sighted the wall, my brain immediately knew where my head/torso/hip line was and would signal any corrective action to my dolphin kick. This may go out the window in a 50 where you go more on feel. Not sure.

RE: Is this a good fly tip or not?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:39:02 GMT

Are you picking your head up to do this, Rob? You don't want to lift your head up very much, just enough to get your chin out of the water. And if you're lifting your head too much, your hips will drop.