Stroke count

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:04:28 GMT

From in front it looks like he's extending out as far as possible, but I think you'll see what I mean on the side view starting around 1:10. Yes, he reaches out in front, but he also drives his hand right down to the catch position, maybe 12" or so under water, immediately.That's not 12 inches. It barely goes below his chin. Play it in slow motion. You'll see (look at 1:19 and hit play/stop really fast) his hand is in perfect streamline position while his other hand is just about to finish. Hit play/stop again, still at 1:19, and you'll see he's begun to reach and extend his body, the arm is not moving down. Finally, still at 1:19, he begins to dig down, just as his other hand comes out of the water. Your finish is the strongest part of your stroke, but it's only strong because you're streamlining at the same time. No, not what I had in mind at all. Here's an example of what I'm thinking. Try to reach your arm out over your head as far as possible. If you think about starting a pull from this position, you can feel you don't have much leverage. However, if you relax your arm slightly you can feel the core muscles along your sides engage and you have much more leverage.I see what you mean, but try streamlining with bent arms. That's essentially what you're doing. Besides, what happens when you're in that all too critical moment when you're dangling off a 10 story building? Are you going to be able to pull yourself up!? AND WHAT OF THE BABY WHO IS DANGLING ON YOUR FEET? DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT THE CHILDREN!? kidding :) Anyways, the reason we see things differently is because you're a sprinter. When we sprint our arm rotation is faster, and there is very little finish time. Distance people move to fast to be bothered with super perfect stroke technique, but when you practice distance, try it.

RE: Stroke count

knelson — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:17:23 GMT

Anyways, the reason we see things differently is because you're a sprinter. I wish! :)

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:30:31 GMT

not sure www.youtube.com/watch nuts. You're right though, he's not keeping his hand in front of him. His stroke rotation is also .5 seconds long, and he's able to finish each stroke properly. What I envisioned when I heard "arms attached to the core" was a person swinging their arms wildly, constantly bent, finishing while hitting their body underwater, or not turning their shoulders at all, but you will notice that his arms are straight at his finishes.... not to mention every other part of his stroke lol

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:17:25 GMT

Because if you extend your arm out as far as possible you are effectively disconnecting it from your core. I don't think you should ever lock your elbow while swimming, instead your hand should enter and immediately drive down to the catch position. I realize not everyone is going to agree with this, but I believe it to be true.Here's a better example: www.youtube.com/watch You should not drive straight down. Reason being, if you do that, you're going to end up with a fast arm rotation, which will completely screw up the finish. Do you finish at your waist? Or have you been finishing at your side in an attempt to speed up your arms? That's a mistake that a lot of people make. It is true that you want quick arm rotation, but it's better to speed it up by increasing your strength, rather than forfeiting your form.

RE: Stroke count

osterber — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:43:11 GMT

Why wouldn't you want to do that? Each stroke you should reach as far as you can, and stream line with one hand as it enters the water. Well, if I want to, I can swim a 50 freestyle with a stroke count of zero. It's also known as "50 yards kicking". So there is a point at which you get diminishing returns. -Rick

RE: Stroke count

Rykno — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:42:05 GMT

double post

RE: Stroke count

Rykno — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:41:18 GMT

when I pay attention to my stroke count in freestyle I count everytime my hand hits the water. and I also take notice to my underwater distance. I think doing stroke count drills really helped my distance swimming this year. when working breaststroke I only count my strokes after my underwater pullout. if my stroke count is high, then I first take into account the distance of my underwater pull out. I do alot of stroke counting when I swim anything over 100 at practice. since my biggest problem when racing the 200br is speeding up my arms, but catching less.

RE: Stroke count

knelson — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:09:36 GMT

Here's a better example: www.youtube.com/watch From in front it looks like he's extending out as far as possible, but I think you'll see what I mean on the side view starting around 1:10. Yes, he reaches out in front, but he also drives his hand right down to the catch position, maybe 12" or so under water, immediately. What I envisioned when I heard "arms attached to the core" was a person swinging their arms wildly, constantly bent, finishing while hitting their body underwater, or not turning their shoulders at all No, not what I had in mind at all. Here's an example of what I'm thinking. Try to reach your arm out over your head as far as possible. If you think about starting a pull from this position, you can feel you don't have much leverage. However, if you relax your arm slightly you can feel the core muscles along your sides engage and you have much more leverage.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:21:31 GMT

A nice article by Mat Luebbers, I hope everyone enjoys it. His website at About.com has a lot of great swimming information. Swimming Distance per Stroke and Swim StrokeRate Swimmers and swimming stroke count By Mat Luebbers, About.com Many coaches talk about distance per stroke (DPS) and strokes/minute or strokes/second (stroke rate - SR) or even seconds/stroke - but what does it all mean? Should I worry about how many strokes I take when I swim? Yes and no! You shouldn't worry about it, but you need to practice efficiency to get better at it - and that means maximizing your DPS and finding the correct rhythm for you - you strokes/second or strokes/minute. If you know how many strokes you take in 100 meters, and you know your time for 100 meters, then you can figure all of it out. This is ignoring turns and starts - but if you always do it the same way, you will have the same results. And this will work for freestyle, backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly, even sidestroke. Stan Swimmer completes the 100 meter freestyle in 1:00, using 54 stroke cycles. What is this "cycles" thing? Instead of counting each arm, just count one arm. A cycle begins when the first arm enters the water, and ends when that arm recovers and enters the water again. That is 1 cycle or two strokes. It is easier to count for most people. Many coaches talk about distance per stroke (DPS) and strokes/minute or strokes/second (stroke rate - SR) or even seconds/stroke - but what does it all mean? Distance = 100 meters Time = 1-minute (60 seconds) Stroke (cycles) = 54 Now the math: DPS = distance/# cycles used for that distance = 100/54 = 1.85 meters/cycle SR = #cycles/time = 54/1:00 = .9 cycles/second Seconds/Stroke = time/#cycles = 1:00/54 = 1.11 seconds/cycle So what!?! You want to increase your efficiency - get the most with the least, up to a point. You might be able to cover 10 meters with one stroke, but move so slowly that a snail passes you - not a good balance between SR and DPS. You can count your cycles during different sets in practice and compare that with your time for those repeats - if you are putting out the same effort, you can tell when you have found a good balance - you will be taking the lowest number of strokes without losing speed. It takes practice, but with time you will find your optimum mix. As you improve your conditioning and your technique, you may find DPS changing; if it is a positive change, then it is usually a good one, indicating that you are getting more out of each stroke. A big increase in rate might mean you are tired or need to do some more technique work. For example, if Stan's rate remains the same, and he swims a 100 in 1:10, then he would have taken 63 stroke cycles, with a DPS of 1.59 meters - he took more strokes and went slower, an indicator that something might need fixing! A negative change, such as an increased SR but a decrease in overall time could indicate that you are "slipping" or not getting the most out of every stroke. Slow down, work on your drills, and have a coach or workout partner look at your technique - or use a video camera. Try to get back to your good technique; style will always get you further than speed in the long run! A fun drill that can help both SR and DPS is "Golf" (no caddy needed). Swim a 50 (or any distance that you can do 18 more times). Count your cycles and get your time for the swim. Add these numbers together for your "par" score. Now swim 9 x 50 with :15 to :30 rest. Add your count and time for each 50 to get your score for that "hole". Compare each hole to your "par" and add or subtract as you go - 1 over, even, 1 under, etc. Take a break after the first 9, then do it again, using the counting method. How did you do? even? under? over? Try this once a week - you will get a feel for ways to maximize your DPS while holding the same time. There are lots of other ways to use DPS and SR to check how you are doing, including comparing the counts day to day or race to race. It can indicate fatigue, stroke flaws, or improvement.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:07:36 GMT

Breathing or not breathing every stroke, every other stroke isn't my issue. All I know is I take 11 strokes from start to the 25 yard mark; can't help it, that's what it always is on the first start-block to 25 end pool. After that, it is 12 and doesn't change. I'm a 12-stroke 25-gal! Donna

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:02:51 GMT

When your maximum velocity, sprint or personal best time, for a given distance, goes down and your stroke rate for that distance goes down, it is the objective measure of improved efficiency. Knowing your stroke rate and what it means in term of efficiency can be a very useful measurement and if you really want to improve it can be critical. Isolate your kick (kickboard) and pull (pull buoy), count how many kicks and pulls you take, time them and you’ll be able to develop a baseline from which to compare future observations or results in practices and competitions and then evaluate your improvement and efficiency. It can become much more complicated than this but I know you get the idea. Good luck, Coach T.

RE: Stroke count

knelson — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:18:08 GMT

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:06:28 GMT

RE: Stroke count

knelson — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 01:55:56 GMT

Why wouldn't you want to do that? Each stroke you should reach as far as you can, and stream line with one hand as it enters the water. Because if you extend your arm out as far as possible you are effectively disconnecting it from your core. I don't think you should ever lock your elbow while swimming, instead your hand should enter and immediately drive down to the catch position. I realize not everyone is going to agree with this, but I believe it to be true.

RE: Stroke count

knelson — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 01:24:38 GMT

not sure www.youtube.com/watch I'm not really talking about what the arms do during the recovery. a Straight-arm windmill style certainly works for some, but you'll see even someone like Nystrand bends his arm some during his pull and he definitely doesn't spend any time with his arm extended out front as far as possible.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:56:49 GMT

Stroke count is an individual thing. I know fast people who take many strokes per lap. I know many fast people who take a few strokes per lap. The number of strokes per lap should change (or will) and that is fine. If you are sprinting vs mid-distance vs distance, you will have a different stroke count. Your stroke count will also change during an event or practice. Be aware of that, it helps you with pacing. It is also a mind game to help forget about pain. I'm tapped out. That's about all I know.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:47:38 GMT

I am currently self coached. so im on my own here. what is a general stroke count. ever since HS i've been the same 8.5 (botharm rotation=1 stroke).A general stroke count is three. That's not a per 25yd stroke count, but that's the number you should be counting to. Breath every three strokes, then start over. If you do it right, you'll be breathing to every other side each time you take a breath. The idea behind counting your total number of strokes per 25 is to improve your streamline and the strength you get out of each stroke, basically to see if you can do it. It's a fun time killer, but it's got very little to do with actual swimming.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:42:33 GMT

I think you need to be sort of careful because you can get carried away with trying to reduce stroke count. You only want to reduce stroke count in a manner that keeps your stroke efficient. This means keeping your arm connected to the core and not just reaching out as far as you can. I can take very few strokes per length if I keep my arm fully extended and pause between strokes while only kicking, but this isn't a fast way to swim.Why wouldn't you want to do that? Each stroke you should reach as far as you can, and stream line with one hand as it enters the water.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:20:34 GMT

So less is more? it would seem so, less rotation less effort right? Less is more. The further you can push yourself forward with each stroke, the more efficient your stroke, and thus, the less strokes you take. Not only do stroke counts vary person, but they will also vary based on what you are doing. Your stroke count during a all out sprint will be different then your stroke count during a 1650. I wouldn't worry about "normal" stroke counts too much. Remember, you can do a 25 in zero strokes. Someone also mentioned rotator cuff issues. Decreasing stroke count will help with this, but I think the large problem is the recovery phase of the stroke. I know finger tip drill, zipper drill and exaggerated body roll helped me get my stroke back to where it needed to be so my shoulders could handle higher yardage.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:05:12 GMT

The goal is to get maximum distance per stroke. Depending on height, technique and ability... stroke count will vary per person. For freestyle, I count everytime a hand pulls thru the water. Work on distance per stroke in one of your sets once in a while. Stretch out your stroke, calm your breathing down, really work your pull. Try to keep your strokes close to perfect - do drills and really concentrate on what you are doing. My former doc told me to really focus on correct technique and doing so should avoid some injuries.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:48:39 GMT

I count by 2's every time my right hand touches the water. Since my 1st stroke is with the left and is the underwater one it gets counted. And that is why, Ladies and Gentlemen, breathing unilaterally and once per cycle is the way to go. I breathe to my left and my first pull is with my right arm. I'll then take my first breath after having done one full cycle. I'll usually SFK to the 12.5m mark and surface with a strong right arm pull/push. If I breathe three times (going at a good clip, not quite sprinting), I know it's a good day. If I breathe three (and almost a fourth time) then my day's not so good. You can guess what constitutes a bad day.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:47:13 GMT

So less is more? it would seem so, less rotation less effort right? i've never dealt with this. I'm just looking at ways to improve my stroke. Rotator cuff issues are keeping me up at night. thanks for the responses so far

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:40:29 GMT

I'd also like to know answer to this. I don't count that one. You should. It IS a propulsion movement. Besides knowing your REAL DPS or Stroke count will help you (and your coach if any).

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:29:57 GMT

I think the general practice is to count each arm stroke independently for freestyle. My coach calls them "hand splashes." I think stroke count per 25 yards is all over the place for Masters swimmers. It depends on technique, body shape (height, hand size, feet size, etc.). I have seen Masters swimmers range from 10 to 40. I would just guess that a typical Masters range is between 12 and 20. I'm 5'8 and my stroke count is usually 15-16 in practice.

RE: Stroke count

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:19:23 GMT

Counting a cycle or per arm is up to you. As a coach I count each arm because an odd number always happens and one stroke per 25 is significant. I think it's up to you and your coach. Coach T. I am currently self coached. so im on my own here. what is a general stroke count. ever since HS i've been the same 8.5 (botharm rotation=1 stroke).